What's calvinism?

[Clete]

Z Man,

I think you're missing my point on the paradigm stuff.
If you say that my paradigm shifts my understanding of what I read in the Bible and that your paradigm shifts what you understand of what you read in the Bible and that both are internally consistent given are respective paradigms, then for you to say that your paradigm conforms to Scripture is only a product of the paradigm. Get it? You can no mare say that your paradigm is more conformed to the Bible than you think I can. We are, therefore, forced to see how our paradigms match up with other objective observations of reality.
It's my point that you are required to deny what your every day experience tells you about the reality of the world around you in order to force it to fit within your Biblical paradigm. I do not have to modify anything. The world is as it seems to be, and the Bible says what it seems to say, they are in perfect agreement. As I said a couple of posts ago, the Bible does not contradict reality.

And, by the way, you should know as well as anyone on this board that I have plenty of verses that talk about things like people resisting the will of God, God expecting one thing and getting another, God changing His mind, God getting mad over stuff that He never thought would even happen, etc, etc. I'll post them if you like, but I hardly think its necessary to do so.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

GIT and Clete,

I am spiritually drained. I can only present Scripture so many times and have it rejected until I finally become discouraged. My heart cries out to the both of you that God may someday grant you the ability to understand this great doctrine concerning God's Sovereignty. I only offer a greater view of Grace and God's Glory, and yet you two seemed afraid or displeased with this doctrine. My hearts concern is that may God oneday open your eyes to the greater side of His grace and glory, so that in turn you two may experience a greater humility and a desire to just praise and adorn and love and serve God all the rest of your days. I only wish to see a greater impact on everyone's lives and in how they view and worship God. I believe that understanding Grace is the key.

God bless you both.

:zman:

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

that's because most of them don't know or understand the reprocussions of their own doctrine.

Your difficulty arises from the mistaken notion that God has an obligation try to save anyone. This errant view may be corrected by realizing that as our covenant head, Adam brought about the ruin of all mankind. Instead of looking at each person as an independent person, the Bible teaches that we are connected directly by covenant membership to either Adam or Christ. (1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive).

Good need not have chosen to show mercy at all! As Judge He would have been justified in simply casting the entire race into the fiery pit.

Once this fact is grasped, it becomes clear that our Judge was not obligated to show mercy to any one and that it is not unfair for Him to choose, according to His good pleasure, a people to show mercy to.

All His ways are just, holy and perfect. No mere mortal is in any position to say "what are you doing".

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by John Reformed

Your difficulty arises from the mistaken notion that God has an obligation try to save anyone. This errant view may be corrected by realizing that as our covenant head, Adam brought about the ruin of all mankind. Instead of looking at each person as an independent person, the Bible teaches that we are connected directly by covenant membership to either Adam or Christ. (1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive).

Good need not have chosen to show mercy at all! As Judge He would have been justified in simply casting the entire race into the fiery pit.

Once this fact is grasped, it becomes clear that our Judge was not obligated to show mercy to any one and that it is not unfair for Him to choose, according to His good pleasure, a people to show mercy to.

All His ways are just, holy and perfect. No mere mortal is in any position to say "what are you doing".

Interesting! That is exactly how I was raised to think.

God creates Adam. Adam sinned and plunged the whole human race into sin. God then has the prerogative to launch every last one of us into eternal torment. Do we have a choice? No, we don't. God creates us and unilaterally casts us out.

The more I think about this, the less I like it. Do I have a right to question God? No. I do not. But do I have a right to question the doctrinal structures that individuals package together and dub God's will? Yes I think I do.

Does God have a sovereign right to create a race of creatures for the purpose of torturing them forever? Yes I suppose He does, but that doesn't fit very well with the God I know. That would make Him a monster, would it not?

God is also good. And I think it is His goodness and love which compellled Him to regard the lamb as slain before the foundation of the world. Will God's goodness make this way of escape available to all men? Yes. I think the scriptures allude to this. I just can't buy into the hyper-calvinistic approach of the cosmic pickle barrel, where God goes through and pulls some pickles out, and consigns the rest to the fire. It just does not fit with the God I know. I don't see how He would be glorified in that.

 

[Lovejoy]

I am not sure how I feel about being called a pickle.

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

I am not sure how I feel about being called a pickle.

Now that you mention it, the pickle-in-the-fire is a mixed metaphor anyway. I'm going to have to come up with a better analogy.

 

[Lovejoy]

Larry the Cucumber did end up in the fire in the "Rack, Shack, and Benny" episode of VeggieTales, and he was put there by a pickle. But perhaps we should not base our theological discussions on cartoons. Lets go back to using Star Trek!

 

[jobeth]

We no longer use Star Trek. Those sneaky little hobbitses stole it from us and cast it into the fires of Mordor.

The current model is The Matrix.

Didn't you get the memo?

 

[LightSon]

Jobeth, did you take the blue pill by chance? Next you'll be saying you likes it raw and wigglin'

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by LightSon

Interesting! That is exactly how I was raised to think.

God creates Adam. Adam sinned and plunged the whole human race into sin. God then has the prerogative to launch every last one of us into eternal torment. Do we have a choice? No, we don't. God creates us and unilaterally casts us out.

The more I think about this, the less I like it. Do I have a right to question God? No. I do not. But do I have a right to question the doctrinal structures that individuals package together and dub God's will? Yes I think I do.

Does God have a sovereign right to create a race of creatures for the purpose of torturing them forever? Yes I suppose He does, but that doesn't fit very well with the God I know. That would make Him a monster, would it not?

God is also good. And I think it is His goodness and love which compellled Him to regard the lamb as slain before the foundation of the world. Will God's goodness make this way of escape available to all men? Yes. I think the scriptures allude to this. I just can't buy into the hyper-calvinistic approach of the cosmic pickle barrel, where God goes through and pulls some pickles out, and consigns the rest to the fire. It just does not fit with the God I know. I don't see how He would be glorified in that.

You may be surprised, but your reaction to the doctrine of God's soverignty is typical of those who actually begin to grapple with it. It's (so to speak) par for the course! I've been there and done that (still do at times) wrestle with the Scripture. The Bible says that God did, or said, this, that, or the other and our reaction is " I must not understand this passage. God (as I understand Him) would never act in such a fashion!

What usually happens is that we either move on from the difficult and troubling passage to that which does not pose such difficulties. Take damnation for example; Arminians and calvinists both agree that hell is a reality and that the "wicked" will be confined there and suffer eternaly. To the human mind (at least to my mind) this punishment seems absolutely the worst possible thing to contemplate. It is more than we can bear to contemplate. I must confess...Some where in my heart, I hope that we have it wrong and that God will simply annihilate them from existance. BUT I dare not repudiate the doctrine because I am, above all, a Bible believing christian.

God said it...I believe it, and will continue to believe it until, by SCRIPTURE ALONE, I am proved to have been wrong.

My point is that we are in no position to put God in the dock and cross-examine Him, charging that He comply with what we (worms) consider just.

Time for church.

God Bless,
John

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by John Reformed

My point is that we are in no position to put God in the dock and cross-examine Him, charging that He comply with what we (worms) consider just.

That is a good point, and I agree.

To restate: I don't question God, but I do question how some have constructed supra-Biblical models to explain (or organize) scripture. Some have developed very extensive models under the banner of "systematic theology".

Calvinism is such a model. Calvinism may be 100% true, but only in that it properly reflects God's word. Calvinism has been around awhile, and I notice that many of it's staunch adherents are supremely convinced of its veracity.

:think:

About "par for the course" of grappling with God's sovereignty, I've been grapping for about 5 years now.

I've drawn very few hard conclusions. Actually, I accept God's sovereignty as a given; it is just the corollaries to His sovereignty that I struggle with. There just seems to be a certain "tension" in scripture which, for me, just won't resolve. I am Biblical inerrantist, so please understand my musings about "tensions" in that context.

Thanks for being patient with me. The same thanks goes to my Open view theist friends at TOL.

Incidentally John R., are you a 5 pointer?

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by LightSon

That is a good point, and I agree.

To restate: I don't question God, but I do question how some have constructed supra-Biblical models to explain (or organize) scripture. Some have developed very extensive models under the banner of "systematic theology".

Calvinism is such a model. Calvinism may be 100% true, but only in that it properly reflects God's word. Calvinism has been around awhile, and I notice that many of it's staunch adherents are supremely convinced of its veracity.

:think:

About "par for the course" of grappling with God's sovereignty, I've been grapping for about 5 years now.

I've drawn very few hard conclusions. Actually, I accept God's sovereignty as a given; it is just the corollaries to His sovereignty that I struggle with. There just seems to be a certain "tension" in scripture which, for me, just won't resolve. I am Biblical inerrantist, so please understand my musings about "tensions" in that context.

Thanks for being patient with me. The same thanks goes to my Open view theist friends at TOL.

Incidentally John R., are you a 5 pointer?

Dear Lightson,

Reformed theology, as are all theologies, is not considered inerrant by calvinist's. However, I have found it to be of great value for me personaly. God has placed teachers in the church for the edification of it's members, and I have found many the reformers to be among the best I've ever read.

One of the benefits of being 58 years old is that, I have made so many more mistakes to date than I had when I was 30.! Mistakes can be wonderful learning experiences. Two of my "best learning experiences " were, getting involved with pentcostalism (wonderfully zealous but awful theology) and leaving off from christian fellowship altogether for a number of years (total ignorance and rebellion).

But when the mud and filth of the pig sty became to much for me, I sought to return to my Father and found Him looking for me from afar off. Through a series of "coincidences" (God in His providence) I was transplanted from a pentacostal church into (of all things!) a reformed presbyterian church. Having been fooled once, I was as nervous as cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I made them give chapter and verse on everything! I'd call the pastor on the phone and ask him why I should believe this or that thing he had said in his sunday sermon. In Sunday school I'd raise my hand and ask the teacher what the foundation was of what he just said. I was being as good a Berean as I knew how to be.

God has been pleased to have me serve him as a member of this little church for about 6 years now, and most (if not all) of my reservations have been eliminated. I had started out as an opponent of God's soverignty in election, but have become a staunch proponent.

My advice is to do the same. Be a good Berean. Make em' prove it by Scripture!

Sola Scriptura!

 

[Z Man]

I just want to comment that I too struggled dearly with the Scriptures in the revelation of God's absolute sovereignty and predestination. My father is a pentacostal preacher, so I grew up in that type of atmosphere and theology. My views shifted when I met a man of God on a small island while deployed in the Navy about 4 years ago. For three months we debated and discerned and studied scripture. I asked for evidence and gave him some verses that I thought supported my views. But slowly and surely, I came to realize that predestination and election cannot be avoided. I had been doing that for all my life. I was never taught anything about those verses, and so when ever I came across any verse that spoke of God predestining and electing and of His absolute sovereingty, I usually ignored it or told myself it wasn't meant to be understood.

When you give in to what the Scriptures say concerning these things, it is a blessed and new awakening indeed! Grace has never been sweeter in my eyes, and the glory of God has never been so glorious! Indeed, I am convinced, and I thank God that the doctrine of Calvinism/reformed theology is 100% scriptural and truth. It is the heart of grace and what Christianity is all about. I never understood these truths in such detail and understanding before. It wasn't until I surrended to Scripture that my walk with Christ became amazingly sweeter.

 

[smaller]

you think it is some GLORY for God to make people so He could TORTURE THEM ALIVE IN YOUR PRESENCE FOREVER and they would be HELPLESS to stop it????

sicko.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by smaller

you think it is some GLORY for God to make people so He could TORTURE THEM ALIVE IN YOUR PRESENCE FOREVER and they would be HELPLESS to stop it????

sicko.

Revelations 19:20; 20:10, 14-15
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER.

Then Death and Hades were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the SECOND DEATH.

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Smaller,

Everything happens for a reason. If you have a problem with the concept of an eternal hell, then you need to take that up with God, not me.

 

[smaller]

I have a problem with your version of Divine Hitler...

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by smaller

I have a problem with your version of Divine Hitler...

No, you have a problem with Scripture. You think that I just created the concept of hell off from the top of my head? There is ton of Scriptural support that declares unbelievers will spend eternity away from God. Jesus Himself preached about hell!

Just because you don't like the concept of hell doesn't mean it's false.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

I just want to comment that I too struggled dearly with the Scriptures in the revelation of God's absolute sovereignty and predestination. My father is a pentacostal preacher, so I grew up in that type of atmosphere and theology. My views shifted when I met a man of God on a small island while deployed in the Navy about 4 years ago. For three months we debated and discerned and studied scripture. I asked for evidence and gave him some verses that I thought supported my views. But slowly and surely, I came to realize that predestination and election cannot be avoided. I had been doing that for all my life. I was never taught anything about those verses, and so when ever I came across any verse that spoke of God predestining and electing and of His absolute sovereingty, I usually ignored it or told myself it wasn't meant to be understood.

When you give in to what the Scriptures say concerning these things, it is a blessed and new awakening indeed! Grace has never been sweeter in my eyes, and the glory of God has never been so glorious! Indeed, I am convinced, and I thank God that the doctrine of Calvinism/reformed theology is 100% scriptural and truth. It is the heart of grace and what Christianity is all about. I never understood these truths in such detail and understanding before. It wasn't until I surrended to Scripture that my walk with Christ became amazingly sweeter.

I just want to comment that I too struggled dearly with the Scriptures in the revelation of God's ability to change His mind and adapt and react with His creation. I grew up in a Calvinist church and also dealt with that type of atmosphere and theology. My views shifted when I met a man of God whom I had first seen on T.V. during a Bible study. I watched his show for about three years and debated and discerned and studied scripture. I asked for evidence and gave him some verses that I thought supported my views. But slowly and surely, I came to realize that predestination and election cannot be supported by Scripture but were in fact pagan Greek philosophy. I had been avoiding that conclusion for all my life. I was never taught anything about those verses, and so whenever I came across any verse that spoke of God changing His mind and plans and of His ability to deal with a creation with a genuine free will, I usually ignored it or told myself it wasn't meant to be understood.

When you give in to what the Scriptures say concerning these things, it is a blessed and new awakening indeed! Grace has never been sweeter in my eyes, and the glory of God has never been so glorious! Indeed, I am convinced, and I thank God that the doctrine of Open theology is 100% scriptural and truth. It is the heart of grace and what Christianity is all about. I never understood these truths in such detail and understanding before. It wasn't until I surrendered to Scripture that my walk with Christ became amazingly sweeter.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Indeed, I am convinced, and I thank God that the doctrine of Open theology is 100% scriptural and truth. It is the heart of grace and what Christianity is all about. I never understood these truths in such detail and understanding before. It wasn't until I surrendered to Scripture that my walk with Christ became amazingly sweeter.

You are still struggling with Scripture. You have never surrended to it. You doubted predestination and sought out a way to prove it was wrong. In essence, you doubted what the Scriptures say concerning those things because you didn't like the way it made you feel; you didn't like the image of God that was portrayed in those types of Scriptures. The image of God you saw was a nice God; a God who would never do anything bad to His own creation. Although Scripture says otherwise, that He does as He pleases and regards the inhabitants of the earth as nothing, you were very displeased and did your best to find ways to get around it. Thus, you found Open Theism, and will never let go of it.

Unless God shows you the truth of Scripture and you take them for what they are worth, you'll always be trying to figure out a way to "overlook" and falsely interpret Scripture to represent what you feel it should state.

Let Scripture shape your paradigm; do not allow your paradigm to shape Scripture.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

You are still struggling with Scripture. You have never surrended to it. You doubted predestination and sought out a way to prove it was wrong. In essence, you doubted what the Scriptures say concerning those things because you didn't like the way it made you feel; you didn't like the image of God that was portrayed in those types of Scriptures. The image of God you saw was a nice God; a God who would never do anything bad to His own creation. Although Scripture says otherwise, that He does as He pleases and regards the inhabitants of the earth as nothing, you were very displeased and did your best to find ways to get around it. Thus, you found Open Theism, and will never let go of it.

Unless God shows you the truth of Scripture and you take them for what they are worth, you'll always be trying to figure out a way to "overlook" and falsely interpret Scripture to represent what you feel it should state.

Let Scripture shape your paradigm; do not allow your paradigm to shape Scripture.

You completely missed my point Z Man!

I used your post as a template for my own, using the same logic making the same exact point in favor of Open Theism as you make for Calvinism and I could do the same again with this post as well!

The point is Z Man, is that saying it doesn't make it so. You say I ignore Scriptures that speak about predestination, (which I do not, they mean precise what they say) and all the while you completely ignore Scripture after Scripture that explicitly says that God changes His mind and responds in a real relationship oriented way with His creation, insisting that they do not mean what they seem to mean.
Further you deny clear evidence presented by the creation itself that God is not the arbitrary God that Calvinism makes Him out to be and insist that if Calvinistic interpretation of the Bible says the sky must be green then it must be green despite the evidence your own eyes presents to the contrary.
Further still, you are wrong, I never questioned Calvinism in the slightest until I saw a man with the most effective ministry I have ever seen and wanted to have the sort of relationship with God that he had. I had no idea what sort of theology he had and came to the material with no idea what the final conclusion would be. I saw the results of his theology and was a first hand witness to his obvious knowledge of the Scripture and so gave his ideas a chance but it was not his personality or personal charisma that convinced me, but his use of the Scripture and of sound reason that showed me clearly the historical origins of the Calvinist understanding of predestination and that the true God did not interact with His creation in a way that is consistent with such an idea as fate and that the Bible can be read with the understanding that it means what it seems to mean, that it isn't written in code or in such a way that requires years and years of theological training. The Bible means what it says and, for the most part, the average third grader can understand it.


Resting in Him,
Clete