What's calvinism?

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man
Whatever.

This one word is the only thing you said that was on topic. The rest is so far off topic or is so self-contradictory that it doesn't warrant a response. The whole post is almost unintelligible.
If this is the way our discussion has to end then so be it, but I'm sorely disappointed. My previous conversations with you were far more productive than this. You are capable of clearer thinking than you've demonstrated on this thread. Perhaps next time, we'll have a more productive discussion.

God bless.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[LightSon]

What is required from us to be saved?

Originally posted by Z Man

is....

NOTHING!

There is nothing required from us to be saved! ...

Z Man,
I appreciate the fact that you are defending Calvinism, but perhaps you have pushed this point too far.

What is required from us to be saved?

Interestingly enough the jailer, in Acts 16:30 asked this same question, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

Had Paul and Silas wanted to give your answer they would have said "NOTHING!". "There is nothing to do; God does it all."

NO. That isn't what they said. Here is what they said "to do".

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

I think you need to balance your Calvinism with scripture and this question is where the rubber meets the road. If there is "nothing" to do, then there is no need to evangelize. Why give folks the gospel if they don't need to "do" anything with it? In this case folks don't need to respond, or "believe".

I sense you want to quibble about whether "belief" is doing anything or not, or whether "believing" is a work or not. Can we simply accept it is our responsibility to believe- that is what the Bible says we must "do". And let us agree that "believing" is not a work. It is nothing for us to boast in.

Incidentally, I have enjoyed watching your arguments develop and improve over the last few months.

 

[smaller]

an example of I DO's lightson???

Acts 10
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

I suppose you will say they MUST HEAR?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

good post LightSon!

:thumb:

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by LightSon

Z Man,
I appreciate the fact that you are defending Calvinism, but perhaps you have pushed this point too far.

What is required from us to be saved?

Interestingly enough the jailer, in Acts 16:30 asked this same question, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

Had Paul and Silas wanted to give your answer they would have said "NOTHING!". "There is nothing to do; God does it all."

NO. That isn't what they said. Here is what they said "to do".

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

I think you need to balance your Calvinism with scripture and this question is where the rubber meets the road.

Lightson,

Belief cannot save a person. The act of a person believing is not what cover's their sins. Salvation was bought for us on the cross by Jesus Christ. That's when we were saved. Believing has nothing to do with acquiring salvation. If so, then it becomes a work and it takes away from what Christ did on the cross.

Faith to believe is a gift from God. It's given to us so that we can believe in the One who paid for our sins already, thus ensuring us salvation. God doesn't say, "Oh, so now you believe. Great, here's salvation. You deserve it." Instead, God gives us the faith to believe and trust that Jesus Christ alone has paid for our sins and has granted us salvation alone! People don't believe to become saved at that instant; they believe in Jesus Christ and that He is our salvation!

That's the point I was trying to make. There is nothing we can do to be saved. Salvation is not of man or of works, lest anyman boast. It's all 100% God. Christ saved us when He died on the cross. Our belief/faith is a gift from God that allows us to trust and believe in Christ for our salvation; that He truely paid for our sins on the cross and that we now have an advocate with the Father. When we believe it does not mean that salvation is suddenly granted to us, because of our obediance to believing. That is what would make belief/faith a work.

If there is "nothing" to do, then there is no need to evangelize. Why give folks the gospel if they don't need to "do" anything with it? In this case folks don't need to respond, or "believe".

I'm not suggesting that people not respond or believe; I'm saying that the elect of God WILL believe. But no one believes to acquire or obtain salvation; that was already bought for us on the cross.

As for evangelizing, it is greatly important:

Romans 10:14-17
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God has chosen the preaching of the gospel as a means to awaken the elect. Why, you might ask? Paul explains:

1 Corinthians 1:18, 21-31
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

I sense you want to quibble about whether "belief" is doing anything or not, or whether "believing" is a work or not. Can we simply accept it is our responsibility to believe- that is what the Bible says we must "do". And let us agree that "believing" is not a work. It is nothing for us to boast in.

If believing is the act that saves us, then it becomes a work.

Incidentally, I have enjoyed watching your arguments develop and improve over the last few months.

Thank you Lightson! I have been going to college for the past year. It must be working! :thumb:

 

[Swordsman]

Z Man, that last post was just so straight-forward. What a freeing thought to know the truth about our salvation. It also smashes all pride in the believer as well. What an awesome God we serve! :thumb:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Z Man, that last post was just so straight-forward. What a freeing thought to know the truth about our salvation. It also smashes all pride in the believer as well.

Jesus provided the means by which we can be saved. God saves a person when the believe in him not because they have earned it or because they deserve it but because he made the decision to save all those who came to him through faith.

believe would be a work if it earned us our faith. but the fact is, belief w/o Jesus on the cross would never be enough. thus, it becomes impossible for us to "earn" salvation. all we can do is believe in God and wonder at his amazing grace that sent Jesus down to pay our price for sins allowing those who had faith, to be saved.

bottom line though: the bible says that faith in Jesus is what saves. the bible also says we are not justified by works. because works gain wages because they are earned and deserved. believing in Christ neither earns salvation nor does it make us more deserving. it is simply the condition God has placed to determine who will be saved. if you don't like it, take it up with him.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Jesus provided the means by which we can be saved. God saves a person when the believe in him not because they have earned it or because they deserve it but because he made the decision to save all those who came to him through faith.

believe would be a work if it earned us our faith. but the fact is, belief w/o Jesus on the cross would never be enough. thus, it becomes impossible for us to "earn" salvation. all we can do is believe in God and wonder at his amazing grace that sent Jesus down to pay our price for sins allowing those who had faith, to be saved.

bottom line though: the bible says that faith in Jesus is what saves. the bible also says we are not justified by works. because works gain wages because they are earned and deserved. believing in Christ neither earns salvation nor does it make us more deserving. it is simply the condition God has placed to determine who will be saved. if you don't like it, take it up with him.

That whole post was nothing more than playing with words. If you peel it down to it's core, you are basically saying that belief in Jesus Christ, which comes from within ourselves, is what actually saves us from our sins. That my friend, makes belief a work. If belief in God comes from within ourselves, and it's not from Him, then it's something we MUST create to be saved. We must take the initiative within ourselves to overcome our pride and believe on Christ to receive salvation. Grace then only becomes a gift, or a reward I should say, for our belief. That makes faith a work, and salvation becomes granted to us based on our action, not Christ's.

 

[Swordsman]

If the future is really open then, how can one attain the faith needed to believe in God? If God doesn't know who will come to Him, then He takes risks giving faith to some who will never believe. Right? It's crazy to think this way. Open theism doesn't believe in salvation by grace. They will never admit it, but it is salvation by works they believe in.

God gives faith to those who are the elect. He knows exactly who will come to Him. He draws them with His grace. So you see, it isn't our belief at all that triggers salvation. The "believing" is there, but merely a result of the generated faith God gives us.

And I believe Z Man and myself have provided plenty of Scripture on this thread to prove salvation is truly by grace, and grace alone.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Swordsman

If the future is really open then, how can one attain the faith needed to believe in God? If God doesn't know who will come to Him, then He takes risks giving faith to some who will never believe. Right?

The Open Theist don't even believe God gives people faith; they believe that people "create" it within themselves.

Good post by the way. :thumb:

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Jesus provided the means by which we can be saved. God saves a person when the believe in him not because they have earned it or because they deserve it but because he made the decision to save all those who came to him through faith.

believe would be a work if it earned us our faith. but the fact is, belief w/o Jesus on the cross would never be enough. thus, it becomes impossible for us to "earn" salvation. all we can do is believe in God and wonder at his amazing grace that sent Jesus down to pay our price for sins allowing those who had faith, to be saved.

bottom line though: the bible says that faith in Jesus is what saves. the bible also says we are not justified by works. because works gain wages because they are earned and deserved. believing in Christ neither earns salvation nor does it make us more deserving. it is simply the condition God has placed to determine who will be saved. if you don't like it, take it up with him.

Excellent point GIT!
I would add that since it is clearly Biblical that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and that it is equally clear that works do not save us, then it follows logically that the Bible teaches that faith is not a work, which, by the way, in my estimation aught to be intuitively obvious in the first place.

Further, faith is not a substance that one creates; God does not create faith and neither do we. Faith, like love, is a choice one makes. If one does not have free-will then not only is it impossible to love because love must be volitional to be real but faith also becomes impossible because it cannot be forced or imputed, it must be chosen or it is not faith by definition.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Z Man

The Open Theist don't even believe God gives people faith; they believe that people "create" it within themselves.

I know. Its just hard for me to see how a blind, dead, ignorant sinner can on his own turn to God. How can a completely depraved sinner develop saving faith in order to believe Christ died for his sins? The answer is: He can't. That's why the Holy Spirit exists. To inject God-given faith into our lives so that we will believe.

Why is that concept so hard to understand to one who believes in the truth of the Scriptures like the Open Theists do?

Good post by the way. :thumb:

Thanks brother.....

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

That whole post was nothing more than playing with words. If you peel it down to it's core, you are basically saying that belief in Jesus Christ, which comes from within ourselves, is what actually saves us from our sins. That my friend, makes belief a work. If belief in God comes from within ourselves, and it's not from Him, then it's something we MUST create to be saved. We must take the initiative within ourselves to overcome our pride and believe on Christ to receive salvation. Grace then only becomes a gift, or a reward I should say, for our belief. That makes faith a work, and salvation becomes granted to us based on our action, not Christ's.

the bible says we are saved by faith in Jesus. it says if we believe he is Lord and Savior and that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved. it says that God is calling ALL men everywhere to repent and put their faith in God.

it also says we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith. what is the grace? Jesus. we did not earn the cross or deserve it in any way and thus, grace saves us. but the verse also says THROUGH FAITH. and this is our responsibility.

faith is not something you "conjure up" so to speak. it's something everyone can already do. we all have faith in something. atheists have faith that God doesn't exist. agnostics have faith that the existence of God can't be known. mormons have faith in Joseph Smith. muslims have faith in Allah. everyone has faith.

God is asking us to turn from our false ways and put our faith (that we already have) in him. this is an action. it's not a work. thus, faith is really a choice. no one would call a choice a work.

thus, it is grace that we are saved because of Jesus and the cross and it is faith that saves us because that is the condition God has put on whom he will save. grace through faith. it's simple really.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

If the future is really open then, how can one attain the faith needed to believe in God? If God doesn't know who will come to Him, then He takes risks giving faith to some who will never believe. Right? It's crazy to think this way. Open theism doesn't believe in salvation by grace. They will never admit it, but it is salvation by works they believe in.

God gives faith to those who are the elect. He knows exactly who will come to Him. He draws them with His grace. So you see, it isn't our belief at all that triggers salvation. The "believing" is there, but merely a result of the generated faith God gives us.

And I believe Z Man and myself have provided plenty of Scripture on this thread to prove salvation is truly by grace, and grace alone.

faith is not something you "attain". people already have it. faith is more like a conviction. as i said in my post before this, atheists have faith (conviction) that God doesn't exist, mulsims have faith (conviction) in Allah and mormons have faith (conviction) in Joseph Smith. the problem isn't really their faith though. it's that faith is only as good as the object it's placed in. and since all those faiths are in false things, it can't save them. thus, they need to place their faith in the true Jesus, the true God to be saved-just as the bible declares from Genesis to Revelation.

i totally agree that salvation is by grace through faith. we just disagree on what that means.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

I know. Its just hard for me to see how a blind, dead, ignorant sinner can on his own turn to God. How can a completely depraved sinner develop saving faith in order to believe Christ died for his sins? The answer is: He can't. That's why the Holy Spirit exists. To inject God-given faith into our lives so that we will believe.

Why is that concept so hard to understand to one who believes in the truth of the Scriptures like the Open Theists do?

they're not totally depraved, that's why. and if one doesn't hold that, then there's no need for the rest of calvinism. once the base is gone, the rest of house collapses.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

they're not totally depraved, that's why. and if one doesn't hold that, then there's no need for the rest of calvinism. once the base is gone, the rest of house collapses.

Mark 7:21-23
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?

Romans 3:10-12
There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

I think you have to understand what total depravity means. According to the Scriptures, it means 'without God.'

So you might ask "How is it possible for anyone to choose God after knowing they're totally depraved?" They cannot. That is why God predestines. We are not born of our will, but of God's will.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And God "grants" that one believes too.....

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

Faith is also a "work" of God.....

John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

And God predestines as well.....

Romans 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

So you see, the basis for total depravity isn't a dreamed up concept by man. The ONLY reason for rejected such passages that spell out its truth is simply pride. And that just proves our sinful nature.

"The Bible really can't mean that, can it?"

 

[God_Is_Truth]

I think you have to understand what total depravity means. According to the Scriptures, it means 'without God.'

So you might ask "How is it possible for anyone to choose God after knowing they're totally depraved?" They cannot. That is why God predestines. We are not born of our will, but of God's will.

if total depravity just means "without God" then you cannot make the jump to saying it means "unable to choose God". it just does not follow by itself.

it'd be like saying that because someone is "without food" they are "unable to choose food for themselves". it just doesn't follow. you need more steps inbetween or a redefined defintion of total depravity.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

the CONTEXT of this verse is about the wisdom of the spirit, NOT the gospel.

And God "grants" that one believes too.....

to grant something is to allow it. so, God has allowed people to believe. no one disagrees with that.

Faith is also a "work" of God.....

John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

if God's "work" is to make people believe, then he isn't doing a very good job as there are countless people who don't believe. if i was God's manager and his job was to do this "work", i'd probably fire him for doing such a lousy job.

And God predestines as well.....

Romans 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

that is general predestination that is done to each and every person who believes. it states that all who believe in Christ are (not were) predestined to become Christ like. there's really no reason to think it's saying that men were predestined to believe in Christ from eternity past by God's irrestisble grace because they are totally depraved.

So you see, the basis for total depravity isn't a dreamed up concept by man. The ONLY reason for rejected such passages that spell out its truth is simply pride. And that just proves our sinful nature.

"The Bible really can't mean that, can it?"

no, you have not established TOTAL depravity. you established that man is very depraved, which i agree with, but you didn't establish TOTAL depravity.

 

[Swordsman]

Well, at least I think you, GIT, and I agree on some the basic essential doctrines (i.e. deity of Christ, and the resurrection of Christ). As for salvation, I think we both know we have salvation, we just differ on how we became saved.

I'm not out to prove the doctrines of grace. It speaks for itself. The only reason I believe what I believe, is because I've searched His Word and its what has been revealed to me by His Spirit.

I do cherish these discussions with you though. Hopefully others seeking His will can get something from it.

Your brother in Christ,
swordsman

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Well, at least I think you, GIT, and I agree on some the basic essential doctrines (i.e. deity of Christ, and the resurrection of Christ). As for salvation, I think we both know we have salvation, we just differ on how we became saved.

I'm not out to prove the doctrines of grace. It speaks for itself. The only reason I believe what I believe, is because I've searched His Word and its what has been revealed to me by His Spirit.

I do cherish these discussions with you though. Hopefully others seeking His will can get something from it.

Your brother in Christ,
swordsman

amen. we definately agree on the essential doctrines and that we are both saved. the important thing isn't how we were saved, but that we are saved and that we are called to share the good news with others in the hope that they would be saved as well regardless of who can be saved and how it happens.

God bless.

God_Is_Truth

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

amen. we definately agree on the essential doctrines and that we are both saved. the important thing isn't how we were saved, but that we are saved

Well, it is important to me how I am saved. But I agree. It is important that we are.

and that we are called to share the good news with others in the hope that they would be saved as well regardless of who can be saved and how it happens.

God bless.

God_Is_Truth

True. Who are we to determine who God's elect are? Evangelism is key. Good point GIT. :thumb:

This has been a great discussion. Don't think I'm trying to conclude it either. I gave my response to your first comment on total depravity.

"The council rests."