What's calvinism?

[God_Is_Truth]

I gave my response to your first comment on total depravity.

"The council rests."

is "The council rests" your response to my comment or was it something else?

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

is "The council rests" your response to my comment or was it something else?

Hehe, no. Its a court term. When a lawyer is done arguing his case, he says "The council rests."

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Hehe, no. Its a court term. When a lawyer is done arguing his case, he says "The council rests."

ok, that's a relief

i didn't think that was what you were saying in response to me, but the way you stated it kinda looked that way.

so, could you please show me what your response to mine was?

thanks.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
so, could you please show me what your response to mine was?

thanks.

See post #236. If you're asking if I replied to your reply to my post (#236), I didn't. And I have my reasons. I simply stated passages that back up the doctrine of total depravity. And you disagreed with me. Its ok. I just do not have a rebuttal to your reply simply because I feel the passages do just fine explaining the state of man without God.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

See post #236. If you're asking if I replied to your reply to my post (#236), I didn't. And I have my reasons. I simply stated passages that back up the doctrine of total depravity. And you disagreed with me. Its ok. I just do not have a rebuttal to your reply simply because I feel the passages do just fine explaining the state of man without God.

i guess i was thinking you had responded to post #237 and i had just missed it. thanks for clearing it up. i guess sometimes we just agree to disagree.

God bless.

 

[Clete]

Faith is not a work!

Faith is not a work!

I've started a new thread on this specific issue if anyone would like to weigh in on it.


Faith is not a work!

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

God is asking us to turn from our false ways and put our faith (that we already have) in him. this is an action. it's not a work. thus, faith is really a choice. no one would call a choice a work.

The definition for the word "work" in which Christians use it pertaining to our faith has nothing to do with actual manual labor, persay. "Work" is anything a person does to find favor in the eyes of God and earn His love. Thus, asking a person to put their faith that they have always had in God so that He in turn will save you is asking someone to put forth some sort of effort, or work, in order to find favor in God's eyes and earn salvation. If salvation is only given on the basis of that effort, or in this case, the faith that we succeed in putting in God, then it definitly becomes a work instead of a gift.

Christ's sacrifice is what saved us. Our faith is simply the means in which we believe and have hope that Christ has alread paid for and granted us salvation through His work on the cross alone. His shed blood saves us, not our faith.

You don't love God so that He will then save you. To love God IS to be saved. It is a gift, not an achievement. You can make yourself moral. You can make yourself religious. But you can't make yourself love. "We love," John says, "because he first loved us (1 John 4:19)".
-Frederick Buechner

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man
Christ's sacrifice is what saved us. Our faith is simply the means in which we believe and have hope that Christ has alread paid for and granted us salvation through His work on the cross alone. His shed blood saves us, not our faith.

Z Man,

the bible clearly declares that faith is what saves us. Jesus had to die so that God would still be declared righteous by not punishing those who came to him in faith. as it is written:

Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

and the following verses clearly show that we are justified by faith in Jesus, not just Jesus alone.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3:24
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

also, consider what Paul wrote about Abraham in Romans 4

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

God is not "rewarding" someone with salvation when they seek him. nor is he giving someone something they deserve or have earned. it's essentially the same as saying whoever comes to my house, to them i will give 20 dollars. is anyone who comes to my house earning that money? of course not. is anyone who shows up more deserving of it than others? same as before, no. i made a condition and a statement that whoever shows up, to them i will give 20 dollars. it is essentially the same as faith in God. whoever puts their faith in God, God will credit their faith as righteousness. God sent Jesus so that the sins of those who came to him by faith, would be taken care of and paid for so as to be just and the one who justifies.

the bible is clear Z Man, faith in Jesus saves. the sacrifice of Jesus paid the price of sins for all who decide to place their faith in Jesus.

it would be false just to go around saying "Jesus died for your sins so now you are off the hook." the requirement (so to speak, rather a condition) of salvation has been, is now, and will always be faith in God.

and i believe that is why you see faith as a work, because you believe that because Jesus died for the "elect's" sins, then anything done after that would be a work. that's wrong and unbiblical. time after time, the bible declares that one must have faith in Jesus to be saved. faith is the key.

 

[Z Man]

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

HOLY COW!!! THIS IS MAD!!!

I can't believe this. I mean, I know this is the core of the Open View/Free Will view and stuff, but to see it in writing is absolutely horrid! Can no one else see the heresy in this; the clear and obvious indictation that OV'ers believe that salvation is of man? :shocked: My stomach doesn't feel so good...... :vomit:

Originally posted by God_is_Truth
the bible is clear Z Man, faith in Jesus saves.

the requirement (so to speak, rather a condition) of salvation has been, is now, and will always be faith in God.

GIT,

You beleive that faith originates and comes from man. Thus, to state that our faith in God is what saves us is basically stating that our efforts, our belief, our faith, man's doing, is what saves us. You even said that Jesus's sacrifice isn't what saved us; that there is more to it than just that! :shocked: Now if that isn't taking away from grace, I don't know what is!

it would be false just to go around saying "Jesus died for your sins so now you are off the hook."

I wouldn't go around saying that to everyone I knew, believer or not. For me personally, I know that what Christ did on the cross was all that it took to save me, and that there is nothing I have done, or can do, or will do, that can add or take away from His sacrifice. Christ has already paid the price and finished the job. My salvation is secure in His work alone. How prideful and blasphemous to tell God, "I know you died for my sins already, but I just don't think that that was enough. Therefore, I'm going to believe in you and do my best Lord so that you can truely save me." How sickening!

My faith and my works/fruits are nothing more than the product of my salvation. IT IS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND, AS YOU SO PUT IT!!!!!!!

In stating that Christ's sacrifice is not enough, you belittle grace and His work on the cross. You are literally telling God that Jesus wasn't good enough.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man
My faith and my works/fruits are nothing more than the product of my salvation. IT IS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND, AS YOU SO PUT IT!!!!!!!

Then why is GIT able to quote verse after verse that says explicitly that it is the other way around?

Originally posted by God_is_Truth
Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

and the following verses clearly show that we are justified by faith in Jesus, not just Jesus alone.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3:24
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

also, consider what Paul wrote about Abraham in Romans 4

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Then why is GIT able to quote verse after verse that says explicitly that it is the other way around?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Because his view of Scripture is limited to what he allows through his paradigm, or "lens". He only sees what he wants to see. My paradigm is different from his and yours. I can look at these verses and compare them to others, but interpret them the way I see Scripture, through my paradigm. If I could let him borrow my lenses, and only if he could see Scripture from my perspective, then those verses he used from Romans would make sense that there is no way Paul is stating that our faith/works/fruits produce our salvation.

 

[smaller]

Calvinists and freewillers merely argue about "how" they are saved and WHY everyone else is ETERNALLY DAMNED.

One fulcrum of BOTH of their positions is faith. One (the Calvinists) say that their faith is FROM GOD and ONLY TO THOSE WHOM GOD ELECTS. Not a bad view. At least they have it right on WHERE faith comes from.

Freewillers will continually point to the YOUR FAITH texts and claim that it is the faith of the INDIVIDUAL (not understanding from whence ALL THINGS come) and say then that it is THEIR FAITH that SAVES THEM.

Paul made this statement about FAITH:

Romans 3
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

This single statement is HUGE.

The righteousness of God is UNTO ALL (believers and unbelievers for there is NO DIFFERENCE!).

The Righteousness of GOD is NOT OF "our" faith, but of the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST and UNTO ALL.

So in effect (stated again for emphasis) the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD is UNTO ALL via THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST.

Calvinists CANNOT limit it.

Freewillers do not ACTIVATE it.

Thank God these things are NOT IN YOUR HANDS.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Apollo]

Well, as long as we don't have to put our faith in Christians, who after 200 centuries of scratching their collective butts can't even agree on which came first, the chicken (of faith) or the egg (of justification). Does the "born again" experience precede faith, or does faith precede the born again experience?

Consider the order of salvation. Calvinism teaches that the born again experience (justification) precedes saving faith; that is, the hardened heart of unredeemed man must first be softened and changed by the Holy Spirit. Can the Ethiopian by an act of his “free will” change the color of his skin?

Arminianism teaches that justification follows the moment of faith; that is, faith must first be generated in the heart of the unbeliever, with the born again experience following.

Conclusion? If Christians cannot agree on something as basic and fundamental to their belief system as the order of salvation, on what grounds does Christianity speak with authority on any issue? Obviously, there is no one “true” Christianity, but rather “multiple” versions of Christianity, driven by subjectivism, pet theories, and personal preferences.

The “absolutism” of the Jewish-Christian god exists only in the mind of the True Believer™.

 

[smaller]

The "wheels" come off when MEN think they UNDERSTAND and exemplify GOD by how and what THEY think. The fact is this is no more than MEN saying what and how they THINK is GOD.

What an absurd notion.

We see this DEMONstrated continually in "christianity." They really need to examine their END RESULT and consider what GOOD it is. Any honest examination will show it is WORTHLESS SPECulation that results in THE MAJORITY being ETERNALLY TORTURED.

What an ABSURD NOTION!

The only COMMONALITY within "christianity" is their ENDING CONCLUSION which is ETERNAL TORTURE of people in their presence FOREVER!

and they call this what? Oh, yeah, HEAVEN.

And they think Muslims are bad. At least they have virgins and lots of happiness.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Because his view of Scripture is limited to what he allows through his paradigm, or "lens". He only sees what he wants to see. My paradigm is different from his and yours. I can look at these verses and compare them to others, but interpret them the way I see Scripture, through my paradigm. If I could let him borrow my lenses, and only if he could see Scripture from my perspective, then those verses he used from Romans would make sense that there is no way Paul is stating that our faith/works/fruits produce our salvation.

Wow! What a confession!

Z Man, if you continue down this road of intellectaul honesty it won't be long before you'll start getting accused of letting Bob Enyart and Bob Hill of doing your thinking for you! :thumb:

So both of our interpretations of scripture are consistant with our own paradigms. Excellent! Now all that is left is to determine which paradigm coinsides with reality as we experience it every day.

I submit the following two paradigms...
Yours (Calvinisms)...

1. God does not change in any way.
2. The future is set in place and immutable.
3. We do not have free-will.
4. Salvation is imputed arbitrarily.

Note that each successive step is based on the previous step.

Mine (Open Theisms)...

1. God can and does change.
2. We do have free-will.
3. The future is undetermined.
4. Salvation is granted if and when faith is present, not before.

Similarly this is also a logical progression.

So, which of these most fits with the world in which we live?

What extra-biblical evidence is there that we do not have free will?

If the future is set in place then there is no such thing as chance. What evidence is there that things do not happen randomly?

Without free-will love is meaningless. What evidence is there that you do not love your wife?

I could on like his for quite a while but I’m short on time, so this will be enough for now.
These are not simply rhetorical questions, by the way. I would very much like to see if you can answer them. However, keep in mind that you are not permitted to use Scripture to answer because of that pesky paradigm thing. Try to keep strictly to things that are not subject to subjective interpretation but that are simply subject to common experience and objective observation.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[smaller]

Ah, Clete....

I hate to tell you this but your MANmade love is self righteous, self justified, self centered, eternally condemning of others, and not anywhere NEAR Agape Love and God could CARE LESS about "your love" or whether or not you are a robot.

You really are what HE made you and you had NO CHIOCE in the matter.

If you think you can PRODUCE something from your GOD GRANTED "freewill" that God "will be" IMPRESSED WITH perhaps some other mere mortals can, you know, examine it for authenticity and SEE if it is worth a damn?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

So both of our interpretations of scripture are consistant with our own paradigms. Excellent! Now all that is left is to determine which paradigm coinsides with reality as we experience it every day.

That's the problem. Scripture is consistant with my view, but yours, no way. I use to believe in Open Theism myself. Only about 4 years ago did I start seeing the obvious truth of God's aboslute sovereignty revealed in Scripture. My paradigm shifted; my lenses were changed, by God, through the in-depth reading and studying of His Word. I allowed the Scripture to transcend beyond my scope of what I believed to be reality at the time.

Trying to coinside Scripture with our paradigm of the world in this reality is like trying to put a square through a round hole; it won't fit. It's not suppose to. One of the reasons is sin. Men are vile, evil, sinful, disgusting creatures who hate and rebel against God daily. Our view of reality is tainted with sin. Our "lenses" are dirty. We need a paradigm shift before we can ever understand Scripture.

Also, after realizing Christ as Savior, it is foolish to attempt to conform Scripture to our reality. That is what you are doing. It may look like we have free will on earth, but that doesn't automatically mean that the Scriptures must support "free will". Rather than trying to conform Scripture to our paradigm of the world, we should allow our paradigms to be conformed to Scripture. That's what happened to me 4 years ago by the grace, mercies, and will of God.

I submit the following two paradigms...
Yours (Calvinisms)...

1. God does not change in any way.
2. The future is set in place and immutable.
3. We do not have free-will.
4. Salvation is imputed arbitrarily.

Note that each successive step is based on the previous step.

Mine (Open Theisms)...

1. God can and does change.
2. We do have free-will.
3. The future is undetermined.
4. Salvation is granted if and when faith is present, not before.

Similarly this is also a logical progression.

So, which of these most fits with the world in which we live?

Does it matter? You're asking the wrong question. The question should be "which of these doctrines most fits with Scripture".

What extra-biblical evidence is there that we do not have free will?

Well, for some reason, some just cannot grasp the concept of the existence of a God. They won't believe, no matter how much evidence is presented before them. It seems that even if you show them the evidence that may have sparked an "Ah ha!" in you, it does not have an effect on them whatsoever. The conclusion: they reject the grace of God. It may seem that they have a choice, and you chose wisely while they may choose to remain foolish. But is it their lack of choosing and your ability to choose? What does Scripture tell us about those who do not believe?

1 Cor 2:14
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 10:26-29
But you do not believe, BECAUSE you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, WHO HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

2 Timothy 2:25
[May] God perhaps grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.

(Sorry, I know you said not to use Scripture, but because we cannot allow our reality to conform our paradigm, I thought I would share Scripture that changes the paradigm of free will in the way we see it in our reality. Although it may seem real in this world, as if people make choices everyday, Scripture plainly goes against this paradigm and tells us otherwise. People who do not believe in God lack faith not on the basis of their own decisions, but simply because God has not reveled Himself to them yet - He has not granted them faith.)

If the future is set in place then there is no such thing as chance. What evidence is there that things do not happen randomly?

The evidence that God exists. Because He does exist, there is no way things would happen "randomly" without Him knowing it, or ordaining it.

Without free-will love is meaningless. What evidence is there that you do not love your wife?

Sin enslaves us. The love that God displays towards us by setting us free from sin when we do not deserve it and had no ability to set ourself free from the enslavement of sin is true agape love. Free will is not madatory for love to exist.

God is not an option in man's life. He's not something people can get an understanding of and then reject because they feel that they don't need Him in their lives. God is mandatory to our survival; to our happiness; to everything that sustains and makes us who we are. If a person is offered the grace of God through the hearing of Gods Word, by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, then there is no way that person will ever "reject" what they so desperately need and have probably been searching for their whole lives. If you are walking around in a pitch black room, stubbing your toes, shin, and knees on every piece of hard furniture and sharp objects imaginable, and then someone offers to turn the light on for ya, would you reject? Not unless you are a complete idiot...

Then how much more so would a person reject the offer and realization of God's true majestic saving grace and love? It's impossible. God's grace is irresistable because every human on this planet NEEDS Him. God is not an option. He is a necessity.

 

[Clete]

One step forward and two steps back Z Man!

It was you who suggested that it our paradigms that determine our understanding Scripture and that given our respective paradigms that our interpretations are consistent.
In doing so, you make the puzzle much easier to figure out. All that is required is to find our which paradigm is in line with reality.
How do we do that?
Well, if the understanding of Scripture is tainted by the paradigm itself then it is fruitless to use Scripture as evidence for the veracity of the paradigm. The only thing left to us is the world around us and that which we experience every day with regards to relationships and such. All of which are completely silent when asked to give evidence to support a Calvinist world view.
Nothing in our experience gives any indication whatsoever that what you say the Bible says is true. Not only that, but much of what Calvinism teaches can be shown to be logically inconsistent and self contradictory without ever cracking open the Bible. And this aught to be a death blow to Calvinism in any ones mind just as Christianity itself should be discarded if it can be shown to be verifiably false by whatever means. The Bible DOES NOT conflict with reality! Indeed, this is an indispensable pillar of the Christian faith! This is just another way of saying what I was trying to get you to see a few days ago. Christianity is falsifiable. And it is falsifiable by extra-biblical means.

So you are in a corner here Z Man.
You either must recant your statement that the Bible can only be rightly understood by seeing through the Calvinist paradigm, or you must establish the veracity of your paradigm by some extra-biblical means.
There is no other logical alternative.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. You said...

Free will is not madatory for love to exist.

Please define love.
If love is not a choice one makes, then what is it?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Well, if the understanding of Scripture is tainted by the paradigm itself then it is fruitless to use Scripture as evidence for the veracity of the paradigm.

That's why our paradigm needs to be changed. Don't conform Scripture to your paradigm; conform your paradigm to Scripture. Did you not read my last post? It doesn't seem like it....

Nothing in our experience gives any indication whatsoever that what you say the Bible says is true. Not only that, but much of what Calvinism teaches can be shown to be logically inconsistent and self contradictory without ever cracking open the Bible. And this aught to be a death blow to Calvinism in any ones mind just as Christianity itself should be discarded if it can be shown to be verifiably false by whatever means.

Obviously, you do not hold God's Word to be the final authority on what is real. Instead, you think that this reality that we live in dictates what is real or not. You are conforming the Scriptures to our way of living. And that's wrong. Remember, we are tainted by sin. Our view of reality is thus tainted also. So it would be a mistake to conform Scripture to our tainted realities. Again, you must instead conform yourself, your realities, and your paradigm to what the Scriptures say.

It may look like people have free will in life, but the Bible says otherwise. I've presented Scripture to prove my case. You have not and can not. All you can do is say, "But in reality, I see people make choices everyday". I don't care what you think, see, or observe in life. What do the Scriptures say?

Please define love.
If love is not a choice one makes, then what is it?

Love is Sacrifice. Love is giving of one's self entirely.

We didn't make the sacrifice or can ever make any sort of sacrifice to love God. There is nothing we can do to earn or "receive" God's love. He is the one who made the sacrifice; He is the one who loves. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). He doesn't have to ask us permission to love us, or if He can save us. He does that freely, and all we can do in response is praise Him the rest of our days. Not so that God will save us, but because we are already saved! We don't love God to be saved; to love God IS to be saved!

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man
In stating that Christ's sacrifice is not enough, you belittle grace and His work on the cross. You are literally telling God that Jesus wasn't good enough.

Z Man, the bible declares that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. it says that we are saved by faith in Jesus. it says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. the bible says that each one of us needs to put our faith in Jesus to be saved.

i am not belittling the cross in any way, for without the cross and without the resurrection of Jesus, our faith is dead and futile. on the contrary, it is BECAUSE of the cross and BECAUSE of the resurrection of Jesus that we can be saved by God's grace through faith.

1 Cor 15
14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith

this is why it was absoulutely necessary that Jesus die for our sins: so that God could justly and rightly save us on the basis of our faith.

God bless.

God_Is_Truth