What's calvinism?

[Swordsman]

Z Man, I see you're still over here playin games with the OVers. Let me tell you something. The only way their eyes can be open to the truth of the Word is if God opens them.

See, open theism came about because they saw the flaws with Arminism. Now that Boyd and Sanders and all the other OV authors came on the scene, there's all these "Christians" who weren't grounded in the truth and have been hooked on these new views.

The Southern Baptist Convention, among other large Christian organizations have denounced this new idea known and open theism. And yes, open theism is a recent idea from several men. It cannot be traced back to 1st century churches or beyond. It is an idea by so-called believers that just cannot let go of their pride. They'll never admit it, but they deny God's sovereignty over His creation. Nor will they admit they believe God makes mistakes. DO NOT BE DECEIVED. One teetering on open theism is on dangerous ground indeed.

And to sell their whole argument, they just say evil things happen on their own and are not in the will of God. Heresy!

Romans 11:33-34
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Greg Boyd thinks he does.

Nature does not have a will. And man's will never precedes God's will. Bad things happen for God's purpose and His alone. But just because we do not understand these things, that's why we have all these various explanations such as open theism.

So you see, that's why I don't argue with the OVers anymore. Its useless. Its like arguing with an atheist about "Does God exist?" or a Democrat about "Is abortion wrong?" They have their mind made up already. And yes, these false doctrines were predestined by God upon certain people.

 

[smaller]

Greetings zman

No, you have a problem with Scripture.

I believe EVERY WORD of God and Christ as PERFECT. I believe ALL the damnation texts.

Yet I find that ALL SINS are forgiven of MANkind, even blasphemy. Your "all" is merely "some."

You think that I just created the concept of hell off from the top of my head?

Oh, I do very much believe in the destruction of the wicked. I also understand that we do not war against flesh and blood, but against INVISIBLE principalities that YOU do not see.

There is ton of Scriptural support that declares unbelievers will spend eternity away from God. Jesus Himself preached about hell!

When you see MANkind and SIN INDWELLING and EVIL PRESENT as NOT MANKIND then you will know ALL The Words. Til then you are merely the voice of another false accuser, or rather the false accuser speaks through you, just as he does with all who do not forgive.

Just because you don't like the concept of hell doesn't mean it's false.

I believe in ALL the damnation texts. When you damn your fellow man you only damn yourself because you are in no different of a position.

How do I know you speak falsely?

Very simple:

Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Since you hold SINS against nearly ALL of mankind, I simply say YOU are the voice of a LIAR and a SLAVE.

smaller

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Z Man, I see you're still over here playin games with the OVers. Let me tell you something. The only way their eyes can be open to the truth of the Word is if God opens them.

See, open theism came about because they saw the flaws with Arminism. Now that Boyd and Sanders and all the other OV authors came on the scene, there's all these "Christians" who weren't grounded in the truth and have been hooked on these new views.

The Southern Baptist Convention, among other large Christian organizations have denounced this new idea known and open theism. And yes, open theism is a recent idea from several men. It cannot be traced back to 1st century churches or beyond. It is an idea by so-called believers that just cannot let go of their pride. They'll never admit it, but they deny God's sovereignty over His creation. Nor will they admit they believe God makes mistakes. DO NOT BE DECEIVED. One teetering on open theism is on dangerous ground indeed.

And to sell their whole argument, they just say evil things happen on their own and are not in the will of God. Heresy!

Romans 11:33-34
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Greg Boyd thinks he does.

Nature does not have a will. And man's will never precedes God's will. Bad things happen for God's purpose and His alone. But just because we do not understand these things, that's why we have all these various explanations such as open theism.

So you see, that's why I don't argue with the OVers anymore. Its useless. Its like arguing with an atheist about "Does God exist?" or a Democrat about "Is abortion wrong?" They have their mind made up already. And yes, these false doctrines were predestined by God upon certain people.

Swordsman,

Your post is not only passive aggressive, but unbiblical, and hypocritical.

You say you no longer argue with Open Theist, but you have no problem posting passive aggressive comments that are clearly designed to just that.

You say that God must open our eyes to the Word of God and yet the Word of God itself says that it is your responsibility...

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And make no mistake; you are a preacher. You may not make a living at it, but by getting on this web site and acting as if you know what you are talking about, you make yourself a preacher and you will be held responsible for the things you teach here.

Further the only thing I deny about God's sovereignty is your definition of it. God is THE Sovereign of the Universe! There is none beside Him, nor any appeal beyond His authority. By His authority you have been delegated the authority to decide for yourself whom you will serve and by His authority you'll draw your next breath. He is the author of salvation and He will save those whom He said He will save, namely those who put their faith in His only begotten Son, for and through whom all things were made that have been made.

It sickens me that you would call God the author of evil and say that a belief to the contrary is heresy! It is you who's mind is made up and who's neck is stiff! You are a hypocrite of the highest order and a heretic to boot. Both your theology and more so your behavior sickens me! :vomit:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[John Reformed]

CHOSEN :"Selected from a number, picked out, elect, choice" — Webster.

Matt. 20:15. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" "... for many be called but few chosen" (Matt. 22:14).

Mark 13:20. ". . . but for the elect's sake, whom he has chosen, he has shortened the days" (verses 22, 27).

John 15:16. "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you . . ." (verse 19).

Acts 9:15. "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way. for he is a chosen vessel unto me . . ."

Acts 22:14. "And he said, the God of our fathers hath chosen thee .

Acts 10:41. "Not to all people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us .

1 Cor. 1:27. "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world . . ." (verses 26, 26) (speaking of the elect — Matt. 11:25).

2 Thes. 2:13. "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ..." (One of the greatest reasons a true Christian has for praising God).

Eph. 1:4. "According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world (Read the whole chapter).

1 Peter 2:9. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar (or purchased) people

James 2:5. ". . . Hath not God chosen the poor of this world (1 Kings 3:8, Ps. 89:3, 105:6,106:5, etc.).

Rev. 17:14. ". . . and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (verse 8) (chapter 19:9).

Psalm 33:12. "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance".

John 13:18. "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen" (Rom. 16:13).

Deut. 7:6. "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Isa. 43:20).

 

[John Reformed]

ELECTION: DIVINE CHOICE, predetermination of God, by which persons are distinguished as objects of mercy, become subjects of grace, are sanctified and prepared for heaven, the elect. (Webster).

Rom. 9:11. "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (God speaking of his love for Jacob and his hate for Esau even before they were born — verse 13).

Rom. 11:5. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Rom. 9:27).

Rom. 11:7. "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Rom. 11:28).

1 Thes. 1:4. "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."

2 Peter 1:10. "Wherefore the rather brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure . . ."

Rom. 11:28. ". . . but as touching the election, they are beloved for the Father's sake" (verse 29; Eph. 1:9).

 

[John Reformed]

CALLED "To designate or characterize as, to affirm to be." (Webster).


CALLING "Divine summons, state of being divinely called; call." (Webster).

Rom. 1:6. "Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ" (verses 5, 7).

Rom. 8:28. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (verse 30).

1 Cor. 1:24. "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God" (verses 9, 26, 27; Col. 3:15).

I Tim. 6:12. "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called. . ."

Gal. 1:15. "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace. To reveal his Son in me . . ." (Not until it pleases God are any awakened and saved — Acts 13:2).

1 Peter 5:10. "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Jesus Christ, . "

Acts 2:39. "For the promise Is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

1 Thes. 2:12. "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory" (Chap. 4:7).

Heb. 9:15. ". . . they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Rev. 17:14; Jude 1; 2 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:15; Gal. 1:6; 1 Cor. 1:26).

2 Tim. 1:9. "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Eph. 4:4. "There is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling" (verse 1).

2 Thes. 1:11. "Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling,..." (Heb. 3:1; Eph. 1:18).

 

[Clete]

Uh John, so what's your point?

I already said that I do not ignore passages in the Bible that refer to predestination. There are those that refer to the elect, chosen, called, predestined, etc, etc. Not all of those are the same thing but none of it teaches the fatalistic predeterminism known as Calvinism.
Much of what you've posted is referring to groups of people or nations. It is referred to as corporate predestination/election. Much of the rest is not even referring to predestination at all, it is ripped so far out of its context that it would be impossible to tell by simply reading it what it's talking about. This is the primary danger of proof texting. A verse quoted without its context is subject to the reader’s paradigm. He will read into it what ever he thinks the point is supposed to be.
If you are going to debate the issue then do so, but you'll have to go much further than plugging in a few catch phrases into a Bible search program.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[John Reformed]

There is no attribute more comforting to His children than that of God’s Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe trials, they believe that Sovereignty has ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all. There is nothing for which the children ought more earnestly to contend than the doctrine of their Master over all creation—the Kingship of God over all the works of His own hands—the Throne of God and His right to sit upon that Throne. On the other hand, there is no doctrine more hated by worldings, no truth of which they have made such a football, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain doctrine of the Sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on His throne. They will allow Him to be in His workshop to fashion worlds and make stars. They will allow Him to be in His almonry to dispense His alms and bestow His bounties. They will allow Him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends His throne, His creatures then gnash their teeth, and we proclaim an enthroned God, and His right to do as He wills with His own, to dispose of His creatures as He thinks well, without consulting them in the matter; then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on His throne is not the God they love. But it is God upon the throne that we love to preach. It is God upon His throne whom we trust.

C.H. Spurgeon

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by John Reformed

There is no attribute more comforting to His children than that of God’s Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe trials, they believe that Sovereignty has ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all. There is nothing for which the children ought more earnestly to contend than the doctrine of their Master over all creation—the Kingship of God over all the works of His own hands—the Throne of God and His right to sit upon that Throne. On the other hand, there is no doctrine more hated by worldings, no truth of which they have made such a football, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain doctrine of the Sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on His throne. They will allow Him to be in His workshop to fashion worlds and make stars. They will allow Him to be in His almonry to dispense His alms and bestow His bounties. They will allow Him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends His throne, His creatures then gnash their teeth, and we proclaim an enthroned God, and His right to do as He wills with His own, to dispose of His creatures as He thinks well, without consulting them in the matter; then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on His throne is not the God they love. But it is God upon the throne that we love to preach. It is God upon His throne whom we trust.

C.H. Spurgeon

Yes, yes very nice. Unfortunately for you Mr. Spurgeon didn't write the Bible.

Where does the Bible say that God ordained the murder of innocent children? (I advise against looking in Jer. 19.)

Show me the verse that says that it is God who is responsible for homosexuality? (Stay away from Rom. 1.)

Where is it found that God ordains the witch to perform her craft? (Lev. 20 is definitely not where you want to look for such a passage.)

Please show me.

The Calvinist definition of the word sovereign is a gross overstatement and perversion of the truth. You say that if a man chooses to do something against the will of the sovereign king that he is no longer the king! This is not true on earth and it is certainly not true in heaven. Just because you choose to disobey God does not mean that God is no longer God, it does not mean the He is not sovereign!
Since you are so big on Sole Scriptura; on what authority do you make the claim that the word "sovereignty" must mean that God meticulously controls every last detail of all existence at all times. Where in the Bible does such an idea exist? I submit that it does not! There are one or two verses that one could read this trash into, but none say anything like God's will is that children are offered as burnt offerings to pagan gods, or that millions of innocent babies are to be aborted every year, or 20,000+ murders are to take place in the U.S. per year, etc, etc.
God is not the author of evil. God is holy, just, and good and will forever be so. No one can bring accusation against Him for He does not do evil nor does He tempt anyone to do evil, never mind actually cause then to do it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Swordsman,

Your post is not only passive aggressive, but unbiblical, and hypocritical.

You say you no longer argue with Open Theist, but you have no problem posting passive aggressive comments that are clearly designed to just that.

You say that God must open our eyes to the Word of God and yet the Word of God itself says that it is your responsibility...

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And make no mistake; you are a preacher. You may not make a living at it, but by getting on this web site and acting as if you know what you are talking about, you make yourself a preacher and you will be held responsible for the things you teach here.

Further the only thing I deny about God's sovereignty is your definition of it. God is THE Sovereign of the Universe! There is none beside Him, nor any appeal beyond His authority. By His authority you have been delegated the authority to decide for yourself whom you will serve and by His authority you'll draw your next breath. He is the author of salvation and He will save those whom He said He will save, namely those who put their faith in His only begotten Son, for and through whom all things were made that have been made.

It sickens me that you would call God the author of evil and say that a belief to the contrary is heresy! It is you who's mind is made up and who's neck is stiff! You are a hypocrite of the highest order and a heretic to boot. Both your theology and more so your behavior sickens me! :vomit:

Resting in Him,
Clete

That's the beautiful thing about us though. We can each have our opinions about everything. Although I vehemently disagree with your view, I do respect it.

On the contrary, it sickens me that there are those who call themselves "Christians" yet go around preaching the gospel the way the open view presents it. Oh well, the Bible does warn the believers against false teachers. It looks as if some just do not heed it.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Yes, yes very nice. Unfortunately for you Mr. Spurgeon didn't write the Bible.

Where does the Bible say that God ordained the murder of innocent children? (I advise against looking in Jer. 19.)

Show me the verse that says that it is God who is responsible for homosexuality? (Stay away from Rom. 1.)

Where is it found that God ordains the witch to perform her craft? (Lev. 20 is definitely not where you want to look for such a passage.)

Please show me.

The Calvinist definition of the word sovereign is a gross overstatement and perversion of the truth. You say that if a man chooses to do something against the will of the sovereign king that he is no longer the king! This is not true on earth and it is certainly not true in heaven. Just because you choose to disobey God does not mean that God is no longer God, it does not mean the He is not sovereign!
Since you are so big on Sole Scriptura; on what authority do you make the claim that the word "sovereignty" must mean that God meticulously controls every last detail of all existence at all times. Where in the Bible does such an idea exist? I submit that it does not! There are one or two verses that one could read this trash into, but none say anything like God's will is that children are offered as burnt offerings to pagan gods, or that millions of innocent babies are to be aborted every year, or 20,000+ murders are to take place in the U.S. per year, etc, etc.
God is not the author of evil. God is holy, just, and good and will forever be so. No one can bring accusation against Him for He does not do evil nor does He tempt anyone to do evil, never mind actually cause then to do it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

If you wish Clete...I would be happy to supply you the the scriptural foundation of each one of the above points.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Since you are so big on Sole Scriptura; on what authority do you make the claim that the word "sovereignty" must mean that God meticulously controls every last detail of all existence at all times. Where in the Bible does such an idea exist? I submit that it does not! There are one or two verses that one could read this trash into, but none say anything like God's will is that children are offered as burnt offerings to pagan gods, or that millions of innocent babies are to be aborted every year, or 20,000+ murders are to take place in the U.S. per year, etc, etc.
God is not the author of evil. God is holy, just, and good and will forever be so. No one can bring accusation against Him for He does not do evil nor does He tempt anyone to do evil, never mind actually cause then to do it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Dear Clete,

Firstly, the Bible teaches that no one is born innocent. The doctrine of original sin was settled upon many years ago. Your not a pelagian...are you?

Secondly, God does not need to force or coerce man to sin. Man is born a sinner. In fact man is born a slave to sin. You seem to ovelook that basic fact. That alone should cover your questions regarding sexual perversion of all stripes and withcraft as well. The sad truth is that man loves his bondage to satan, and God alone can change him.

Lastly, If God is not in control; if He cannot save babes from pagan sacrifice; then why would anyone look to Him for help?

You folks act like God is victim Himself! How can one rest in such a weakling god??? You tell me.

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Where does the Bible say that God ordained the murder of innocent children?

Hi Clete,

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to rephrase your question to remove the loaded word "murder"

question rephrased by LightSon
Where does the Bible say that God ordained the [death] of innocent children?

Were there children in Sodom when God rained down fire and brimstone to kill them all?

How about other "acts of God", like earthquakes and fatal storms? Is God responsible for these acts? Would you agree that God has the prerogative to kill men for any reason He chooses?

How do you feel about God telling Israel to exterminate the Canaanites? Was that just? Will you charge God (or the Israelites) with murder?

It may seem like I'm trying to trick you, but these are hard questions that seem to vitiate your position. I'll need these answered before I embrace Open Theism.

It seems that OVers take comfort in rejecting God's exhaustive foreknowledge, as if God is truely surprised(and therefore "off the hook") when men do wicked things. But in the cases I cited, God was actively "on the scene." OV tries to say that Calvinism puts God "on the hook." Whereas Calvinism, despite its weaknesses, isn't shy about asserting God's right to do as He sees fit with His creation. As of yet, the OV God does appear to me to be (at best) naive about the acts His creation is capable of doing.

Regarding JRs quote "Of God's Eternal Decree".
I was interested in the first 2:

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

These do seem to be in conflict, and OVers reject their compatibility. How can God ordain something and not take responsibility for it?

Frankly, neither side has won me yet. There are pieces to the puzzle that I cannot make fit.

 

[smaller]

Deuteronomy 32:39. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Isaiah 45:6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by John Reformed

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.


If you wish Clete...I would be happy to supply you the scriptural foundation of each one of the above points.

You cannot even establish this one point on a simply logical basis, never mind a Scriptural one. It is self contradictory and therefore unbiblical by definition. Without contingency, free will cannot exist and vise versa. The two go together and cannot be separated with rendering them both meaningless.
Further without freewill, guilt is impossible and therefore punishment is arbitrary and therefore unjust. The deterrent that true justice imposes becomes meaningless in a world without free will for what one does or does not do is not chosen but imposed.

Calvinism seeks to redefine about half the words in the English language (actually any language for that matter) but that get you know where, because regardless of the words you use, the ideas of justice, freedom, contingency, the will, etc all become meaningless unless I myself have the genuine freedom to do or do otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by LightSon

Hi Clete,

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to rephrase your question to remove the loaded word "murder"

NO! I asked the question the I wanted to ask it. The word murder is key to the question.

Were there children in Sodom when God rained down fire and brimstone to kill them all?

Yes there were, many of them I'm sure.

How about other "acts of God", like earthquakes and fatal storms? Is God responsible for these acts?

This is why I asked the question I asked the way I asked it. It doesn't take us off course in the discussion.
No, God is not responsible for accidents. Tragedies happen because of the fallen nature of the world in which we live. Is God able to stop them? Yes, but to do so He would have to bring history to an end. God is not a magician. the world we live in and this life we are living is not a game or a dress rehearsal, it is real and sin has consequences, one of which is a hostile world where tragedies happen. But God's grace is sufficient.

Would you agree that God has the prerogative to kill men for any reason He chooses?

The answer here depends on the scope of the question. As asked, the question is yes. However, it must be understood that God is not arbitrary and does not do things that are in conflict with His character.

How do you feel about God telling Israel to exterminate the Canaanites? Was that just? Will you charge God (or the Israelites) with murder?

The very idea borders on blasphemy! God does not murder! Nor does He command murder nor does He predestine murder! Again, I asked the question that I asked the way I asked it for good reason. The fact is that these pagan nations deserved death and God used (or intended to use) Israel to exact His punishment. It is interesting to note that God promised to "without fail" drive out all the nations from before Israel on there way to the promise land and that He did not do it.

It may seem like I'm trying to trick you, but these are hard questions that seem to vitiate your position. I'll need these answered before I embrace Open Theism.

These questions are impossible to answer unless we see God in a way that allows Him to be the person that He is; a Person who is able to interact and respond to changing circumstances in a dynamic relationship with His creation.

It seems that OVers take comfort in rejecting God's exhaustive foreknowledge, as if God is truly surprised(and therefore "off the hook") when men do wicked things. But in the cases I cited, God was actively "on the scene."

Are you accusing God of wickedness? You're right God was on the scene and did the things He did for the reasons given in Scripture. I think your a bit short sighted in your understanding of what is just and even merciful. God did the children of Sodom a favor. Instead of growing up in a evil and vile society and being virtually assured of going to hell, those kids had the benefit of growing up without such an evil influence and when it came time for them to choose whether to live for God then they would have had a much better chance of choosing rightly.

OV tries to say that Calvinism puts God "on the hook."

No not exactly, we say that "being on the hook" for something is meaningless. This would actually even extend to God because according to Calvinism God is immutable and does not CHOOSE to do that which He does either. God does/can not DO anything, if this were not so, then He would be mutable and therefore not God.

Whereas Calvinism, despite its weaknesses, isn't shy about asserting God's right to do as He sees fit with His creation.

Open Theism isn't shy about this either. God can do anything that is doable that is also consistent with His character.

As of yet, the OV God does appear to me to be (at best) naive about the acts His creation is capable of doing.

This is silly, God knows us better than we know ourselves. You did not get this idea from an Open Theist.

Regarding JRs quote "Of God's Eternal Decree".
I was interested in the first 2:

These do seem to be in conflict, and OVers reject their compatibility. How can God ordain something and not take responsibility for it?

Simple logic isn't it? Common sense is another phrase that comes to mind. Indeed, it is the very common sense that God Himself hard wired into our conscience. It is this inborn sense of right and wrong that will testify against those who reject God on judgment day.

Frankly, neither side has won me yet. There are pieces to the puzzle that I cannot make fit.

It is interesting that for a Calvinist to make an attempt to win you over would fundamentally conflict with their world view. They believe that you believe what you were predestined to believe and that no matter what they say or what I say, the outcome is not in question. And yet they rail against me and my beliefs as though I could change the fact that I was predestined to believe in free will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[John Reformed]

quoting post from Lightson:
How do you feel about God telling Israel to exterminate the Canaanites? Was that just? Will you charge God (or the Israelites) with murder?

Clete's response: "The fact is that these pagan nations deserved death and God used (or intended to use) Israel to exact His punishment. It is interesting to note that God promised to "without fail" drive out all the nations from before Israel on there way to the promise land and that He did not do it."

It appears to me that Clete has been "hoisted on his own petard".

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

NO! I asked the question the I wanted to ask it. The word murder is key to the question.

If God kills, is it still murder? Why is the word "murder" key? You act as if God did predestine babies to die, then He is guilty of murder.

The very idea borders on blasphemy! God does not murder! Nor does He command murder nor does He predestine murder! Again, I asked the question that I asked the way I asked it for good reason. The fact is that these pagan nations deserved death and God used (or intended to use) Israel to exact His punishment. It is interesting to note that God promised to "without fail" drive out all the nations from before Israel on there way to the promise land and that He did not do it.

What's your definition of murder? Last time I checked, it meant the unlawful killing of one human being by another. God isn't a human, so if He purposefully kills a person, or a bunch of people for that matter, why do you charge us with declaring that God is a murderer? You make no sense. Your view of God is limited and confined to how you view mankind. You put Him in a manmade box. If it's wrong for us to do it, you think it's wrong for God to do it also. Since when did you become the judge of God?

Are you accusing God of wickedness? You're right God was on the scene and did the things He did for the reasons given in Scripture. I think your a bit short sighted in your understanding of what is just and even merciful. God did the children of Sodom a favor. Instead of growing up in a evil and vile society and being virtually assured of going to hell, those kids had the benefit of growing up without such an evil influence and when it came time for them to choose whether to live for God then they would have had a much better chance of choosing rightly.

This is ridiculous. You are merely going on emotions here. No evidence, no intelligence, no proof; just simple, limited, evil logic of your mind. You let your feelings get in the way of TRUTH and Scripture.

It is interesting that for a Calvinist to make an attempt to win you over would fundamentally conflict with their world view. They believe that you believe what you were predestined to believe and that no matter what they say or what I say, the outcome is not in question. And yet they rail against me and my beliefs as though I could change the fact that I was predestined to believe in free will.

Two friends are standing on a pier. One of them falls in and doesn't know how to swim and if isn't saved, will quickly drown. Now, if the other friend on the pier was a fatalist, he would say to himself, "Well, God must of predestined my friend to fall in the water. It must be his time to die." However, if he was a Calvinist, he would say, "God may of perhaps predestined me to save my friend from drowning and give him another oppurtunity to hear about Jesus." So he reaches in and grabs his friend.

See the difference?

 

[Swordsman]

Funny how the OVers seem to always mention "God's character" when trying to justify things. Who are they to know His character?

How do they explain how God granted Satan power to bring Job to his knees? The answer is: they can't. Or if they do, its their own pride getting in the way trying to justify their little nice god doesn't let bad things happen to good people.

WAKE UP OPEN THEISTS! EVER WATCH THE NEWS? BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE, AND ITS ALL PART OF GOD'S PLAN.

Job 1:8-12
And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Oh the Holy Bible is just full of these stories. Open theists just tear them out or completely twist them to fit their nice little god.

 

[Clete]

Swordman,

I understand now why you don't wish to debate these issues; you do not know what you are talking about. Just because you say something doesn't make it true, and when you say something you know to be false (as I believe you did in this post), that makes you a liar.

I, nor any Open Theist that I am aware of has any problem whatsoever with the story of Job, or any other story in the Bible for that matter. What happened to Job is recorded in the pages of Scripture as a matter of historical fact. It happened precisely the way the Bible says it happened, for precisely the reasons given in the same pages of Scripture.

It is you who must say that things recorded in the Bible cannot be as recorded. For example, it is you who must say that when the Bible says that God brought all the animals to Adam "to see what he would call them" that, of course, this means that God already knew. It must mean the exact opposite of what it clearly says or else Calvinism falls apart on the testimony of a single verse of Scripture.

Resting in Him,
Clete