What's calvinism?

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by lost anomaly

From what I have bee reading about the Calvinist's view on Evangelism is that they don't evangelize nessessarily to bring people to God but more because they are commanded to. Am I correct in assuming this?
Lost Anomaly,

Preaching is the means in which God has determined to awaken the elect. It pleases Him to do it this way.

1Co 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Also, please read and consider John Piper's thoughts on the issue of preaching:

How shall the lost believe in whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher, and how shall they preach unless they are sent (Romans 10:14f.)? Belief in Christ is a gift of God (John 6:65; II Timothy 2:25; Ephesians 2:8), but God has ordained that the means by which men believe on Jesus is through the preaching of men. It is simply naive to say that if no one spread the gospel all those predestined to be sons of God (Ephesians 1:5) would be converted anyway. The reason this is naive is because it overlooks the fact that the preaching of the gospel is just as predestined as is the believing of the gospel: Paul was set apart for his preaching ministry before he was born (Galatians 1:15), as was Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5). Therefore, to ask, "If we don't evangelize, will the elect be saved?" is like asking, "If there is no predestination, will the predestined be saved?" God knows those who are his and he will raise up messengers to win them. If someone refuses to be a part of that plan, because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born, then he will be the loser, not God and not the elect. "You will certainly carry out God's purpose however you act but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John." (Problem of Pain chapter 7, Anthology, p 910, cf. p 80)
 

geralduk

New member
Originally posted by smaller

Calvinism=the belief that God created the majority of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing them in fire forever and no matter what these people are powerless to change the course of their eventual eternal tortured destiny in fire.

Of course Arminianism and frewillism has the same belief based upon a nearly identical outcome.

It is in truth YOU who limits God by the NUMBER of saved you so written above declare by what you think of others.
and so reveal your OWN HEART rather than thiers.

For it is YOUR thinking that says the number of lost will be in the majority.and the saved the minority.
In truth I make NO assumption.
For is it not written say or consider not who will go up and who will go down " but the Word is nigh thee even in thy mouth"
and is it not also written that if you SOW sparingly you will REAP SPARINGLY?
Likewise THEN "if you SOW bountifully you will REAP BOUNTIFULLY"
fOR IN THE LIGHT of those mysteries of the kingdom of God it is likened unto a man who "went OUT TO SOW"

So if then (you say) you consider ALL will be saved I hope therefore you are doing ALL you can that ALL might be and are sowing as BOUNTIFULLY as you say your faith reflects.
But here we have a problem in that not ALL the seed falls on good soil.
But soem fell among weeds and others on the pathway and soem upon stony ground.
Now that which is UNFRUITFULL does not mean that the SEED was at fault because it is written it is the GOOD SEED.
Thus it is the condition of the soil that hinders the fruitfullness of the life.
But in truth the seed that IS fruitfull produces MANY other seeds.
But the one seed that falls on hard ground etc brings forth nothing.

So the Harvest is GREAT the trouble and need is for LABOURERS!
 

lost anomaly

New member
Originally posted by Z Man

Lost Anomaly,

Preaching is the means in which God has determined to awaken the elect. It pleases Him to do it this way.

1Co 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Also, please read and consider John Piper's thoughts on the issue of preaching:

How shall the lost believe in whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher, and how shall they preach unless they are sent (Romans 10:14f.)? Belief in Christ is a gift of God (John 6:65; II Timothy 2:25; Ephesians 2:8), but God has ordained that the means by which men believe on Jesus is through the preaching of men. It is simply naive to say that if no one spread the gospel all those predestined to be sons of God (Ephesians 1:5) would be converted anyway. The reason this is naive is because it overlooks the fact that the preaching of the gospel is just as predestined as is the believing of the gospel: Paul was set apart for his preaching ministry before he was born (Galatians 1:15), as was Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5). Therefore, to ask, "If we don't evangelize, will the elect be saved?" is like asking, "If there is no predestination, will the predestined be saved?" God knows those who are his and he will raise up messengers to win them. If someone refuses to be a part of that plan, because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born, then he will be the loser, not God and not the elect. "You will certainly carry out God's purpose however you act but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John." (Problem of Pain chapter 7, Anthology, p 910, cf. p 80)

That makes sense. Thanks.:)
 

smaller

BANNED
Banned
Greetings geralduk
It is in truth YOU who limits God by the NUMBER of saved you so written above declare by what you think of others.
and so reveal your OWN HEART rather than thiers.

focus gerald, focus. I believe ALL of mankind are already God's Children.
For it is YOUR thinking that says the number of lost will be in the majority.and the saved the minority.
In truth I make NO assumption.

gerald, are you writing to me?
For is it not written say or consider not who will go up and who will go down " but the Word is nigh thee even in thy mouth"
and is it not also written that if you SOW sparingly you will REAP SPARINGLY?
Likewise THEN "if you SOW bountifully you will REAP BOUNTIFULLY"
fOR IN THE LIGHT of those mysteries of the kingdom of God it is likened unto a man who "went OUT TO SOW"

God sowed good seeds. The good seeds are ALL HIS CHILDREN, that being MANkind.
So if then (you say) you consider ALL will be saved I hope therefore you are doing ALL you can that ALL might be and are sowing as BOUNTIFULLY as you say your faith reflects.

If you are asking if I am making double sons of hell the answer is NO.
But here we have a problem in that not ALL the seed falls on good soil.
But soem fell among weeds and others on the pathway and soem upon stony ground.

Good seeds remain good. If they grow or are gathered makes no difference to God. Not a one is lost. Not a SINGLE SHEEP.
Now that which is UNFRUITFULL does not mean that the SEED was at fault because it is written it is the GOOD SEED.
Thus it is the condition of the soil that hinders the fruitfullness of the life.
But in truth the seed that IS fruitfull produces MANY other seeds.
But the one seed that falls on hard ground etc brings forth nothing.

The seed contains the promise of what is to come. All have this promise from God. In the meantime some are pressed down a little farther into the fertilizer eh?

enjoy!

smaller
 

helmet84

New member
Originally posted by Z Man

Lost Anomaly,

Preaching is the means in which God has determined to awaken the elect. It pleases Him to do it this way.

1Co 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Also, please read and consider John Piper's thoughts on the issue of preaching:

How shall the lost believe in whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher, and how shall they preach unless they are sent (Romans 10:14f.)? Belief in Christ is a gift of God (John 6:65; II Timothy 2:25; Ephesians 2:8), but God has ordained that the means by which men believe on Jesus is through the preaching of men. It is simply naive to say that if no one spread the gospel all those predestined to be sons of God (Ephesians 1:5) would be converted anyway. The reason this is naive is because it overlooks the fact that the preaching of the gospel is just as predestined as is the believing of the gospel: Paul was set apart for his preaching ministry before he was born (Galatians 1:15), as was Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5). Therefore, to ask, "If we don't evangelize, will the elect be saved?" is like asking, "If there is no predestination, will the predestined be saved?" God knows those who are his and he will raise up messengers to win them. If someone refuses to be a part of that plan, because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born, then he will be the loser, not God and not the elect. "You will certainly carry out God's purpose however you act but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John." (Problem of Pain chapter 7, Anthology, p 910, cf. p 80)

Originally posted by lost anomaly

That makes sense. Thanks.:)

Lost Anomaly,

I'm glad this makes sense to you. I would agree with Z man completely.

The point Pink was making however, is that in spite of whether or not we 'think' something makes sense, if God has commanded it, then we should obey -- period.

Blessings,

helmet84
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Originally posted by helmet84

Lost Anomaly,

I'm glad this makes sense to you. I would agree with Z man completely.

The point Pink was making however, is that in spite of whether or not we 'think' something makes sense, if God has commanded it, then we should obey -- period.

Blessings,

helmet84

Helmet84,

Are you a Calvinist or not?
If so, what do you mean by "we should"?
What if you don't? Hasn't that been predestined too?

As I said, being commanded to do so is irrelevant, because one could refuse to comply with that command and their noncompliance would also be (in the Calvinist view) a predestined reaction to the command. Therefore, God's own commands are subordinate and in conflict with His predestination which means that God Himself is inconsistent and illogical.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Helmet84,

Are you a Calvinist or not?
If so, what do you mean by "we should"?
What if you don't? Hasn't that been predestined too?

As I said, being commanded to do so is irrelevant, because one could refuse to comply with that command and their noncompliance would also be (in the Calvinist view) a predestined reaction to the command. Therefore, God's own commands are subordinate and in conflict with His predestination which means that God Himself is inconsistent and illogical.

Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete,

With all due respect, your ignorance is obvious. I guess you take to heart the saying "ignorance is bliss"...
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

it was predestined :D
It sure was!

1 Peter 2:7-8
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Good observation God_Is_Truth! :thumb:
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Originally posted by Z Man

It sure was!

1 Peter 2:7-8
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Good observation God_Is_Truth! :thumb:

thanks. just doing what i was predestined to do :thumb:
 

helmet84

New member
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

thanks. just doing what i was predestined to do :thumb:

Yes, and Peter was doing what he was predestined to do when he denied Christ three times, and yet he wept over it.

Judas was also doing what he was predestined to do, yet he is still held responsible. Even Christ said it would have been better for Judas had he never been born.

Herod, Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles were also gathered together to do what God's hand and counsel predestined to be done, yet they are also held responsible.

Blessings,

helmet84
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Originally posted by helmet84

Yes, and Peter was doing what he was predestined to do when he denied Christ three times, and yet he wept over it.

Judas was also doing what he was predestined to do, yet he is still held responsible. Even Christ said it would have been better for Judas had he never been born.

Herod, Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles were also gathered together to do what God's hand and counsel predestined to be done, yet they are also held responsible.

Blessings,

helmet84

see that's one thing i don't get. Christ should never have had to say "it'd have been better if" if in fact God has this one big plan from creation where everything is predestined exactly as he wanted it. if everything was done exactly how God wanted it to be, what reason was there for Christ to say "it'd have been better if"?

also, remember that peter's weeping, judas's hanging himself, thomas doubting, and the unbelief of the jews even after the resurrection was also predestined.

and of course, we can't forget that this post of mine was also predestined :D
 

helmet84

New member
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth


and of course, we can't forget that this post of mine was also predestined :D

Yes it was. And you've entirely missed my point. And I don't know how to get you to see it.

I guess it is like trying to describe a rainbow to someone who has been blind all their life.

No offense intended.

Blessings
helmet84
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Originally posted by helmet84

Yes it was. And you've entirely missed my point. And I don't know how to get you to see it.

I guess it is like trying to describe a rainbow to someone who has been blind all their life.

No offense intended.

Blessings
helmet84

i understand that you are trying to say that people are still held responsible for what God predestined them to do (which i don't completely understand) and that we still feel bad about doing the things we were predestined to do but what i was saying is that those feelings were also predestined.

perhaps you could address why Christ said "it'd have been better if" if God has this big plan from creation and predestined everything to go exactly as he wanted it to go?

and also address why we would be held responsible for something God predestined us to do? to me it sounds like the puppeteer punishing the puppet for what the puppeteer made the puppet do.

God bless.

God_Is_Truth
 

helmet84

New member
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth


and also address why we would be held responsible for something God predestined us to do? to me it sounds like the puppeteer punishing the puppet for what the puppeteer made the puppet do.

God bless.

God_Is_Truth

The very objection you have is addressed by the apostle Paul in the ninth of Romans:

" . . . therefore hath He mercy on whom He'll have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will? (there's your question -- helmet84) Nay but O man, who art thou to reply against God? (there's your answer -- helmet84) Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed him, why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the Potter the right over the same lump of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?"
 

helmet84

New member
It is asserted that God, from all eternity, ordained every sin that is committed but yet is neither the author nor approver of it. How can these things be reconciled? The following remarks, it is thought, will aid us to arrive at a solution of the question.


1. A distinction is to be made, as existing in the divine mind, between the sinful act and the result to be attained by it. The one may be abhorrent to God and forbidden by Him and is sinful, because it is a violation of His law; the other may be good and infinitely worthy of accomplishment. Thus, eating the forbidden fruit was a sinful act, because forbidden by God and, as such, was infinitely abhorrent to Him; while the result attained by it was, in part, at least (and who will venture to say it was not as a whole, taking all things into consideration) a good infinitely valuable. It gave occasion for the advent of Christ; for the manifestation of the divine excellencies; and for the bestowal of that glorious grace which will constitute the theme for the praises of the redeemed, throughout eternity. Again, the outrage upon Joseph was, in the perpetrators of it, an unnatural sin and, as such, offensive in the sight of God; but the result attained by it was good and extorted the gratitude of all those affected by it. Joseph's brethren "meant" it for evil, but God "meant" it for good, to save much people alive. Finally, the crucifixion of Christ was not only a violation of the commands of God against the shedding of innocent blood, but was infinitely heinous as a manifestation of the Jews' hostility to Christ's holiness and was, therefore, an awful act of wickedness; but what Christian is unconscious of the glorious consequences of the crucifixion of Christ? What humble soul does not adopt the language of the Apostle, and say -- "God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of Christ, by which the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."


2. It follows from the above that if God knows that any thing will result in infinite good (as the wicked crucifixion of Christ, for instance), it is not unworthy in Him to decree that it should occur; on the contrary, it is infinitely worthy in Him to do so. Calvinists, therefore, divide the will of God into secret and revealed -- the revealed to govern His creatures, the secret to govern Himself; and the latter will be attained, whether men regard or disregard the former. But here two other objections are started. 1st. "Does not this imply an inconsistency in God; as His secret will is sometimes one thing, and His revealed another?" and 2nd. "Is this not saying that God does evil, that good may come?"


1st. To the first, we answer that God's revealed will is always consistent with itself, and His secret will is always consistent with itself. The former is given in His precepts, and all the commands, warning, threatening, persuasions, &c, are consistent therewith. He never commands anything without sincerely requiring it; and, having commanded it. He never authorizes anything that conflicts with it. His revealed and His secret will have reference to objects that are entirely distinct, and cannot, therefore, be compared together. Thus, as we have shown, His revealed will may be entirely opposed to the violence offered to the Saviour and to the motives and feelings that influenced the Jews in that transaction; and yet His secret will, having another object in view, decreed that event in order that the glorious blessings and results that flow from the atonement of Christ might be secured.


2nd. "Is this not saying that God does evil that good may come?"


God is not the doer of evil -- the most that can be said, therefore, is that He permits evil that good may come. Substitute, therefore, for the word `does', the word `permits', and the question will stand: "Does God permit evil that good may come?" That He does permit evil is indisputable. Only three suppositions, therefore, can be made in the case: Either He permits it without any objection in view and for no reason at all; or He permits it that evil may come; or He permits it that good may come. The first, if we understand them, is the Arminian view; but which is the most honoring to God? Let the reader judge.


Finally, if there is any difficulty in this subject, it grows out of the connection that exists between the omnipotent and sovereign God and finite and responsible men. God's sovereignty and man's free agency are both revealed in the scriptures and, therefore, should be both believed. And if we cannot reconcile them, it is not because they are irreconcilable, but because the subject is above our faculties. We think it has been shown, however, that if the objection considered above can lie against the Calvinistic system, it can be alleged with as much reason against the Bible: and Calvinism is content to stand or fall with the Bible.


Objection 2. "Does not the doctrine which teaches that God foreordained all things even to the sins that wicked men commit, exonerate the sinner from all blame?" This is akin to the objection considered above, viz: that Predestination makes God the author of sin, and the answer to one is applicable to the other. The point of the objection is that, if the creature does what God in His secret counsels ordained should be done and thus becomes an instrument (though unconsciously) for the accomplishment of God's purposes, no blame can be attached to him, and God has no right to find fault. Exactly such an objection and in the same connection is considered and answered by the Apostle Paul in Romans 3:5, 6, 7, 8. "But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance?" If our wickedness tends to the glory of God and to the accomplishment of His purposes, would it not be unjust in God to punish us? Certainly not, says he, "God forbid; for then how shall God judge the world?" "But," says the objector, "if the truth of God hath more abounded through my life unto his glory, why am I also judged as a sinner?" "And not rather," answers the Apostle (as we be slanderously reported, &c), "Let us do evil that good may come." Secret things belong to God; and it is a worthy view of Him that He rules with such an omnipotent sway, then even our rebellion and wickedness cannot happen without His permission and cannot thwart His purposes. His revealed will is the rule of our action, and whenever we violate it thoughtlessly or through enmity to it, we are guilty of sin and are blameworthy, whatever may be the consequence of our act as it relates to God. As well might one say who, with malice aforethought, attempted to injure seriously another whom he hated but was thwarted by the skill or power of the latter and thus the act, that was meant for his injury, was made to subserve his interest in a high degree- as well might such an one say, that he was not blameworthy since his act (though unintentionally) wrought good and not evil. And the case supposed would be more pertinent still, and it would not in the slightest degree affect the moral character of the act, if the assailed, unknown to his adversary, became possessed of his intention before hand and determined to permit it, because he foresaw how he could turn it to a good account. Because the wrath of man is foreseen by God and is made to praise Him, that does not make it the less the wrath of man. That God does ordain particular events and all the minute circumstances connected therewith, and yet men act wickedly in bringing them to pass, is asserted by a multitude of scripture passages. Take the following: "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). See again, Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27, 28, 27:23, 24, 34 and that remarkable passage John 19:11. "Jesus answered, thou couldst have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." Our objector, however, differing from the Saviour, would say that, under the circumstances, he had no sin at all!


Objection 3. "But does not Predestination, as explained, destroy free-agency, and make men mere machines?" No, on the contrary, it establishes free-agency. Men are free-agents when they act according to their inclinations. Freedom of action is not opposed to necessity but to compulsion. A being may be necessarily holy or necessarily wicked, and yet a free-agent -- nay, a free-agent for that very reason. Thus, God is a free-agent though He cannot sin and Satan though he cannot but sin. And so it is with men. . . Predestination asserts neither that God makes men serve Him against their consent nor that they disobey Him unwillingly. His chosen people He makes willing in the day of His power and so works in them to will and to do His good pleasure, that they find it to be their meat and their drink to do His will; the rest He leaves to themselves, and, in consequence, they sin against Him freely, and, in following their own inclinations, they work out their own destruction greedily. "But you say God does not infuse into the sinner any active principle of disobedience; how then can he fulfil that which God has appointed, and yet not be a mere machine?" And yet so it is; and my Arminian objector is as much responsible for it as I am. Did not Joseph's brethren act freely in their violence to him? Yet God sent him to Egypt? Did not Pharaoh act freely in refusing to let the Israelites go? Yet God hardened his heart that he might not let them go. Was not the curse which Shimei uttered against David the offspring of the bitter feelings of his heart? Yet God told him to curse David. Did not Absalom and his advisers act in an untrammeled manner in adopting the counsel of Hushai rather than that of Ahithophel? Yet "the Lord had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the Lord might bring evil upon Absalom" (2 Sam. 17:14). Did not the Jews act freely in crucifying Christ? Yet He was delivered to them by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.
-- Patrick Hues Mell

GIT. Take to the time to read the above very carefully. Forgive me for not using my own words, but this save me a lot of typing :)

-- helmet84
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Originally posted by helmet84

The very objection you have is addressed by the apostle Paul in the ninth of Romans:

" . . . therefore hath He mercy on whom He'll have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will? (there's your question -- helmet84) Nay but O man, who art thou to reply against God? (there's your answer -- helmet84) Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed him, why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the Potter the right over the same lump of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?"

The passage you quote in Romans 9 is itself a reference to Jeremiah 18. Read Jeremiah 18 anf you'll find out that God is not talking about individuals but NATIONS!

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

In fact Rom. 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point. They are in effect the same chapter. That point being, that God does not have to give a kingdom to a nation that does evil even though He said He would. Which, by the way, is a VERY non Calvinistic thing for God to say, don't you think? Rom. 9 is the Calvinists big artillery and yet when read IN CONTEXT it is the most devastating evidence against their position.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Originally posted by helmet84

The very objection you have is addressed by the apostle Paul in the ninth of Romans:

" . . . therefore hath He mercy on whom He'll have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will? (there's your question -- helmet84) Nay but O man, who art thou to reply against God? (there's your answer -- helmet84) Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed him, why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the Potter the right over the same lump of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?"

what kind of answer is that? an honest question is asked and an answer of "don't question God" comes back?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Originally posted by Z Man

Clete,

With all due respect, your ignorance is obvious. I guess you take to heart the saying "ignorance is bliss"...

Z Man,

You know better than this. How long have you and I been going at it over Calvinism? I know Calvinism better than most Calvinist!
If my logic is flawed then show me how. Otherwise, say "Good point Clete, I hadn't ever thought of that before!"
Besides that, if you’re right then God has predestined me to believe in free-will. But you can't tell if that is so or not, can you?
Aren't you forced to assume that I am not predestined to believe what I believe? Aren't you, who believe in predestination, forced to act just as I, who believes in free-will? That is, I get on this web site and try to convince people that what they believe is incorrect because I believe that they might come around and see the error of their ways. Aren't you compelled because of your inability to determine who is and who is not "elect", to do the very same thing?
Your chastisement of me for being ignorant is evidence that you do not even think in a manner consistent with your own beliefs. Which is, I think, the point that God_Is_Truth was trying to make when He said that I had been predestined to say what I had said, which you then promptly agree with!
Do you not see the conflict in your own thinking? How can you not? Unless God predestined that you would not see it, then of course you'd be no more responsible for your ignorance than I am for mine, right?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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helmet84

New member
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

what kind of answer is that? an honest question is asked and an answer of "don't question God" comes back?

Yes, that is undeniably how Paul answers the question.

But I did not mean this as a personal affront to you. Please see my quote from Mel above, which was addressed to you. It's just that Romans nine is the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear that question.

BTW, I do appreciate the kindness of you spirit when you discuss things with us. That is why I'm taking time to answer you. I do not expect, however, to persuade you.

-- helmet84
 
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