ECT What is the Will of God . . .

[Cross Reference]

I never discuss interpreting Scripture with those I don't think it belongs to yet . How can it be , if someone does not even know how Faith is applied resulting in recieving the Spirit of Christ ?

No Spirit of Christ , no Christ , no God's word , and no promises .

Scripture doesn't say that.
Can one who in his lifetime has never heard of Jesus Christ still not perform righteous deeds that God will recognize in the day judgment that will credited to his account that his name be written in the book of life? The scriptures say YES.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I never discuss interpreting Scripture with those I don't think it belongs to yet

In other words, you just refuse to defend what you said earlier:

Here's the correct translation for you .

For God so loved the world , that he gave His only begotten Son , that whosoever surrenders their lives to Him , and lives a life inspired by such surrender in Him , should not perish but have everlasting life .

No, a person receives eternal life the moment when they believe, as witnessed by the following words of the Savior:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, at John 5:24 the Lord Jesus Christ is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. If a believer had to live a life of surrender to Him then they wouldn't receive eternal life until the end of a faitful life. But according to the Apostle John Christians already possess eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

You can continue to run from the facts but you can't hide from them because they will always be there to condemn your foolish ideas.

 

[Cross Reference]

In other words, you just refuse to defend what you said earlier:



No, a person receives eternal life the moment when they believe, as witnessed by the following words of the Savior:

A person is "Redeemed" upon believing the account of the cross of Jesus Christ. The "more of it" is part of what being born again is all about that this same individual should be seeking if he/she is serious about his/her salvation. This is not about responding to an emotional after-call invitation.

 

[nikolai_42]

I never said that is not true. But I am arguing that those with true faith know the Lord Jesus. And your own words indicate that they do. How can anyone have their progression of "knowing" Him cut short if they don't know Him to begin with?

I love the Lord Jesus because I know Him from what the Scriptures reveal about Him, beginning with the gospel which reveals that He died for my sins. How can anyone not love Him just because of that? The Scriptures also reveal many things about the Lord Jesus and those things increase my knowledge of Him.

What do you know about Him? Let me start with the following question to you in regard to your knowledge of Him. Do you know that He was made like His brethren in all things?:

"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted" (Heb.2:17-18).

In his commentary on this verse Matthew Poole wrote that "To be made like unto his brethren; a man having a true body and soul like them in every thing, which was necessary to make him a complete Redeemer; agreeable to them in all things necessary to their nature, qualities, conditions, and affections; like them in sorrows, griefs, pains, death."

In order to really know the Lord Jesus in regard to what He is as the Christian's High Priest we must KNOW that He was made like His brethren in "all things."

Do you KNOW that He was made like His brethren in all things?

Thanks!

You started out alright, but then went back to knowing that Christ was (and is)...which can be knownd from a simple reading of scripture. While it is true that those who don't believe won't receive that statement, it does nothing to advance the understanding of knowing the Lord being a progressive thing. We know Him in a sense when we come to Him (otherwise we wouldn't come to Him). But I would say that for the declaration of being His, it is more that He knew (and knows) us. When the sheep and goats are divided, the dividing line is whether He knows us or not. But when Paul makes his statements to the Philippian church, he is doing so in a fuller sense of knowledge. Our knowing Him cannot be completed in an instant. It requires a working out (working out your salvation with fear and trembling etc...). And that knowledge is where we identify with Him. If we suffer with Him we will reign with Him. We must - through much tribulation - enter into the kingdom. You would say that we lack nothing if we know Christ - and that knowing Him is gained at the moment of regeneration. But Paul says this to the Colossians :

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:24

He is claiming a lack. Not in Christ but in himself. Something that needs to be fulfilled to know Him. Becoming more identified with Him.

I suppose the most concise way I know to sum it up is to say that our continuing in Christ - abiding in Him - is not merely continuing to believe that He is the Christ and that He saves us by His blood, but that it is a progression that we must continue on in. Not in any sense earning our salvation, but it is the narrow way that is ever more narrow and demanding that "I" die and Christ live in me. The alternative is simply that I follow my desires all the while believing that Christ died to save me. As we progress, there come more opportunities to turn back as more and more of our heart is exposed. Ultimately the cost is everything we have and are. I think it was Jim Elliot who said "That which is lifelong can only be surrendered in a lifetime.". The point I take there is that a life is lived and while one moment in time may change a life, it is the proving of that moment that has to be borne out in time. In the sense that we aren't saving ourselves, this is not our province. But in the sense that we are commanded certain things, it is very much the ground of our maturity and sanctification. And so when Paul says "That I may know Him...", he is expressing the work of the Holy Spirit. But we also read of the warning in Hebrews that we will go on....if God permits. We must be at a certain "place" before we can progress. It is progressive.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But when Paul makes his statements to the Philippian church, he is doing so in a fuller sense of knowledge. Our knowing Him cannot be completed in an instant. It requires a working out (working out your salvation with fear and trembling etc...).

So even though Paul was addressing those who were already saved he was telling them to work out their own salvation?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A person is "Redeemed" upon believing the account of the cross of Jesus Christ. The "more of it" is part of what being born again is all about...

So believing the account of the Cross does not result in anyone being born again?

 

[nikolai_42]

So even though Paul was addressing those who were already saved he was telling them to work out their own salvation?

Um....yes....

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Um....yes....

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

What meaning do you put on the word "salvation" in that verse? And what happens to them if they are unable to work out that kind of salvation?

 

[Cross Reference]

So believing the account of the Cross does not result in anyone being born again?

Correct. Not unless you believe eveyone who comes to Christ for salvation automatically recieves the DNA of the Godhead.

 

[Cross Reference]

So even though Paul was addressing those who were already saved he was telling them to work out their own salvation?

Paul was assuming those to whom he was writing his letters were born again Christians. He built those churches on a "sure foundation" and had every right to consider them as being so.

 

[Cross Reference]

Um....yes....

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

Think, God's DNA being at work in them.

Questions: 1. Given there are only three manifestions of the Holy Spirit, viz,"with", "in" and "upon", when could the DNA of God only begin to workout the salvation of Jesus Christ in the 12 Disciples? At what point in time could they only have been born again from above? . . . .2.When do you believe they were saved? No baptisms in this. Think "biologically" and "relationally".

 

[nikolai_42]

What meaning do you put on the word "salvation" in that verse? And what happens to them if they are unable to work out that kind of salvation?

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:26-33

And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Luke 9:61-62

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
I Corinthians 9:24-27

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I Corinthians 3:13-15

For those who are Christ's, they will persevere. They will continue to work out that salvation. But for those who turn away, they were not His to begin with. So as the fire shows what kind of work was done, so does the working out show what kind of salvation someone has. Not all those saved will have the same rewards, the same degree of perseverance - but all will persevere to the end.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For those who are Christ's, they will persevere. They will continue to work out that salvation.

How does someone who is already saved and has already received eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) continue to "work out" a salvation which they already fully possess?

They already enjoy eternal life in the Son and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "salvation" at Philippians 2:12 is "deliverance from the molestation of enemies."

I think that must be the correct way to understand the verse.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Correct. Not unless you believe eveyone who comes to Christ for salvation automatically recieves the DNA of the Godhead.

Peter says that a person is "born again" by the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1Pet.1:23,25).​

The Greek word translated "being born of God" is in the "present" tense so everyone who believes the gospel is born again the moment when they believe the gospel.

 

[nikolai_42]

How does someone who is already saved and has already received eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) continue to "work out" a salvation which they already fully possess?

But they don't fully possess it.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 2:7

But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
I Timothy 6:11-12

They already enjoy eternal life in the Son and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28).

And those that persevere bear witness to God's working in them.

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "salvation" at Philippians 2:12 is "deliverance from the molestation of enemies."

I think that must be the correct way to understand the verse.

I see nothing in the passage that would indicate that. The natural sense that would be carried here is working out what God works in. God does the internal work and we are called to persevere in it. It makes no sense to work out your own deliverance from enemies - if for no other reason than Jesus promised that we wouldn't be delivered from our enemies (necessarily) in this life.

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Mark 10:29-30

 

[Cross Reference]

Peter says that a person is "born again" by the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1Pet.1:23,25).​

The Greek word translated "being born of God" is in the "present" tense so everyone who believes the gospel is born again the moment when they believe the gospel.

Jesus was NOT born of the written word. Nor are we who claim to be "Born Again". Therefore, I believe Peter was referring to the living Word, not the written one.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." John 15:16 (KJV)

The application of new birth was "Christened" in John 20:21,22 per John 14:17 KJV: "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost [indwelling]." John 20:21-22 (KJV)

 

[Cross Reference]

How does someone who is already saved and has already received eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) continue to "work out" a salvation which they already fully possess?

They already enjoy eternal life in the Son and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "salvation" at Philippians 2:12 is "deliverance from the molestation of enemies."

I think that must be the correct way to understand the verse.

To work out what God has "installed in us" i.e.,His DNA if we are born again [John 20:22], is what everyone addressed in those passages is speaking to. They were all yet "Pentecostal" in their persuasion, Calvin & co being yet along way off.

 

[Cross Reference]

But they don't fully possess it.

What were they lacking or did not possess after "coming to Christ"?

I trust you can spell it out very carefully to include the enablement of it all?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus was NOT born of the written word. Nor are we who claim to be "Born Again". Therefore, I believe Peter was referring to the living Word, not the written one.

Peter tells us exactly the identity of of the "word" by which people are born again:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

James says the same thing:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
​

Of course being born again is the same thing as being "born of God" and we can see that first century Jewish believers were born of God when they believed:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

Those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God are born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

The application of new birth was "Christened" in John 20:21,22 per John 14:17 KJV: "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost [indwelling]." John 20:21-22 (KJV)

The correct translation of John 20:22 is as follows:

"And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive holy spirit'" (Jn.20:22).​

The Lord Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would not be sent until He departed to be with the Father and He had not yet departed to be with the Father when He said what He said at John 20:22:

"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:5-7).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Mark 10:29-30

You left out what He said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"Has" eternal life and will not be judged. How can someone lose their eternal life in the Son if they will not come into judgment?

And we can see that Christians already possess eternal life and that life is in the Son:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

We also know that eternal life is a "gift" from God (Ro.6:23) and He will not take back His gifts:

"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

So we can understand that the Christian already possesses eternal life in the Son and he won't come into judgment and he will never perish and the LORD will not take back that eternal life but yet you say that a Christian's salvation isn't complete!