ECT What is the true root objection to MAD?

[csuguy]

I made no mistake. He is talking of Israel as a country. Israel is the olive tree. You can not reconcile your statement with Paul's claims which are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

You don't understand Paul because you only listen to bits and pieces of what he says - ignoring the parts you don't like. Like the fact that Israel is only partially hardened.

Furthermore, Paul explains in Romans 2 that one is not a Jew simply because one is circumcised. Rather, even one who is uncircumcised is a Jew if his/her heart is circumcised. For Paul there is a distinction between the true, spritual Israel and the mere physical Israel.

Romans 2:25-29 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice [v]the Law; but if you are a transgressor [w]of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the [x]uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who [y]though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor [z]of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.​

 

[csuguy]

This is not true. Rome tore Israel apart. Physical Israel wasn't a modern reality until dispensationalists used an atrocity to send some to a land, not theirs by law, with force.

I was speaking of Israel the people, not the land. Both heaven and earth will one day be remade, and there will be a new Holy Land of Israel where God shall rule us from directly.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I don't disagree you Christ hating pig. See how that works. You twist (pervert) the gospel. Paul says let you go to hell. Sorry you don't like it.

Like I said.

No one who loves Jesus would say that of one His blood bought brothers.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Salvation is still among the jews. In fact, Jesus tells us that salvation is from the jews. Jesus is, after all, a Jew, and Israel remains God's People.

Jesus is not a Jew.

His Father is not a Jew so neither is He.

He was a Jew.

Jesus was however taking about the real Jew of the circumcision of the heart when He referred to salvation being of the Jews.

It is through the promises given them (the New Covenant) that salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Israel of the old covenant contained believers and unbelievers for all did not have faith.

So it was only to believers of Israel of the flesh who entered into the new covenant and the rest were cutoff from Gods blessing which under the old covenant was for the whole nation.

Israel has not disappeared, nor will it. Nor will it cease to be God's People. Rather, gentiles join Israel under the New Covenant. Also, the Old Covenant - while obsolete - is still in effect until all is accomplished.

Sorry but you are all screwed up there, because there is no Israel of the old covenant at all today, and the only Israel in existence, which is the apple of Gods eye, Gods people, are the members of Christ under the new covenant regardless of their flesh.

Gentiles were indeed free to join under the Old Covenant as well. But the Old Covenant, the Law, does not save. Rather, it brings condemnation for sin.

Men were placed under the old covenant to preserve them, not to condemn them.

While we should still study the Old Covenant, we shouldn't try to keep to the letter of the Law. Rather, we study it to learn the Spirit of the Law - God's Law. This we are under, and under the New Covenant God's Law is written on our hearts.

I agree.

I have not been joined to Israel of the flesh in any way.

LA

 

[dreadknought]

Jesus is not a Jew.

OK.

:sigh:

 

[csuguy]

Jesus is not a Jew.

His Father is not a Jew so neither is He.

He was a Jew.

Jesus was however taking about the real Jew of the circumcision of the heart when He referred to salvation being of the Jews.

Of course he is - he was born and raised a Jew, he became a Rabbi, he is the son of David, the root of Jesse, he taught and followed the Law - and furthermore fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. He is the King of Israel.

Israel of the old covenant contained believers and unbelievers for all did not have faith.

So it was only to believers of Israel of the flesh who entered into the new covenant and the rest were cutoff from Gods blessing which under the old covenant was for the whole nation.

Even under the Old Covenant they could be cut off and restored again.

Sorry but you are all screwed up there, because there is no Israel of the old covenant at all today, and the only Israel in existence, which is the apple of Gods eye, Gods people, are the members of Christ under the new covenant regardless of their flesh.

See Matthew 5. Jesus tells us that the Law isn't going anywhere, not until everything has been completed. And there is still plenty left to be done - like the Judgement, the destruction of Death, the Final Battle, the recreation of heaven and earth, etc.

Men were placed under the old covenant to preserve them, not to condemn them.

See Romans 7. The Law was given to teach right from wrong, that sin might become utterly sinful and condemned. This is good and holy - but it means death for the sinner.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

This looks great, yet the Scriptures teach covenant, not do this to be saved for this age, do this for that. Ya'll will have to talk to Paul someday, and how badly all dispensationalists have misrepresented him.

Your 'ignorance' intrigues me? How do you do it? And, why did you change your name from, "Student X" to "Dreadknought?"
Was it merely a 'whim?' or did you put a lot of thought (as much as is possible under the circumstances) into it?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

First, my own understanding of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is briefly this:

God chose a nation through whom He promised to someday bless the whole earth. That nation was Israel and that choosing involved various covenants. Christ Jesus came as Israel’s promised Redeemer, and through Israel – His nation of priests – He would redeem the whole world.

Excellent post!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Of course he is - he was born and raised a Jew, he became a Rabbi, he is the son of David, the root of Jesse, he taught and followed the Law - and furthermore fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. He is the King of Israel.

Jesus is not now a Jew of Israel of the flesh. He died remember.

Jesus is--

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Even under the Old Covenant they could be cut off and restored again.

One can not be cut off the tree of the Spirit and then restored once again.---

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

One could be cut off the natural tree because of unbelief of Jesus before He died while the OC was still in effect, but after His death and resurrection only the believers were joined to the Spiritual tree.

The death of Christ cut off all from the natural tree because the natural tree covenant was annulled.

See Matthew 5. Jesus tells us that the Law isn't going anywhere, not until everything has been completed. And there is still plenty left to be done - like the Judgement, the destruction of Death, the Final Battle, the recreation of heaven and earth, etc.

Lets not talk about the law without its specific applications.

See Romans 7. The Law was given to teach right from wrong, that sin might become utterly sinful and condemned. This is good and holy - but it means death for the sinner.

Now you are talking about the original law of God which existed before the OC law covenant which enshrined it.

LA

 

[Stripe]

MAD is an unnecessarily complicated interpretation of scripture.

For me, MAD is the idea that the rules for salvation changed, and the change was introduced by Paul.

There are simpler and more cogent interpretations of the history.

Can you give a simpler explanation for this aspect of the history of the gospel?

 

[Lon]

A 6th grader can read Luke 18 and see that the gospel of the kingdom was not 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Why can't you?

Because it would destroy your religion?

I didn't really see this taught until I was in college. Is there a thread on this here on TOL?

 

[csuguy]

Jesus is not now a Jew of Israel of the flesh. He died remember.

Jesus is--

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

You are adding to the scriptures to say that he is now not a Jew. To the contrary - he was resurrected with a body that even still had the wounds from the crucifixion. Furthermore, as Paul says in Romans 2, one is a Jew who is circumcised of the heart rather than the flesh.

One can not be cut off the tree of the Spirit and then restored once again.---

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

One could be cut off the natural tree because of unbelief of Jesus before He died while the OC was still in effect, but after His death and resurrection only the believers were joined to the Spiritual tree.

The death of Christ cut off all from the natural tree because the natural tree covenant was annulled.

You are adding the the scriptures here as well. See Romans 11. While there was a partial hardening, and some of the natural branches were removed - there is also a remainder of the natural vine, unto which the gentiles (wild olive) are grafted. Paul goes onto say that the branches that were broken off can be grafted back-in

Lets not talk about the law without its specific applications.

The scriptures often speak of the Law as a whole, vs specific parts thereof. I see no reason to limit the discussion to particular applications.

Now you are talking about the original law of God which existed before the OC law covenant which enshrined it.
LA

Wrong. Read the chapter.

 

[Nick M]

That is csuguy's claim. He is correct. Unfortunately you don't see the ramifications for MAD doctrine.

And you are still an idiot. See, I can just say what I want.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

And you are still an idiot. See, I can just say what I want.

Good post!

 

[Jedidiah]

This indicates salvation as Paul preached it hadn't gone to Gentiles until Israel had fallen.

Note how Paul speaks of Israel's fall, and the coming of salvation to the Gentile world, as having already happened.

That means the fall of Israel predated the writing of Romans 11.

The Messianic Kingdom Gospel preached at Pentecost was presented exclusively to all Israel -- to Jews far and near, but to Jews only. It was not offered to Gentiles; it was still undreamed of by any Jew that Gentiles could come near to God without Israel, as God was still dealing with Israel as Israel.

That means salvation did not come to the Gentile world until after Pentecost.

The point here is that if one can determine the post-Pentecost/pre-Romans 11 point at which Israel fell and salvation was sent to Gentiles, one will find the point at which God ushered in of the present dispensation of grace and the unveiling of the previously hidden mystery given to Paul (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:9). And with it, one will find the beginning of the one new man, the Body of Christ, and the end of His acknowledgement of all things Israelitish.

Should be pretty simple to find.

Which non-MAD is up to this challenge?

Acts 13:46 -- Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first haue bene spoken to you: but seeing yee put it from you, and iudge your selues vnworthy of euerlasting life, loe, we turne to the Gentiles.

 

[john w]

No saint calls other believers Christ hating pigs and the like as you and your mates do ,and thinks they are fit for the first resurrection without full repentance, confession, and obtaining forgiveness.

LA

Matthew 15:26 KJV But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.


Philippians 3:2 KJV Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

2 Peter 2:22 KJV But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


You dog.

Feel better?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You dog.

Isn't that what Barn called Mary Grace?

 

[heir]

A 6th grader can read Luke 18 and see that the gospel of the kingdom was not 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Why can't you?

Because it would destroy your religion?

My sixth grader just read it and can see that the gospel of the kingdom is not 1 Cor 15:1-4. Why can't Nang?

 

[john w]

Isn't that what Barn called Mary Grace?

Yes, but Gome said she was "nice," and "perty."

 

[elohiym]

See, I can just say what I want.

No, you have to say the stuff you say.