ECT What is the true root objection to MAD?

Lon

Lon

Well-known member
musterion said:
First, my own understanding of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is briefly this:

God chose a nation through whom He promised to someday bless the whole earth. That nation was Israel and that choosing involved various covenants. Christ Jesus came as Israel’s promised Redeemer, and through Israel – His nation of priests – He would redeem the whole world.

The problem is, Israel rejected Him. Not every individual Jew did so but Israel corporately, as a nation, despised Him and had Him crucified by Rome. But rising from the dead and ascending into Heaven, His apostles preached that if Israel repented and believed on Him as their Messiah, He would return to establish the long-awaited Kingdom, just as God had promised and as the Old Testament prophets had foretold.

But once again, Israel refused to bow to her Messiah. After the leaders stoned Stephen to death, God temporarily set Israel aside and temporarily suspended all fulfillment of prophecy.

At that point, God began to usher in the previously unmentioned dispensation of grace, which is now in effect and will remain so until He decides to bring it to an end.

During this age of grace, salvation is no longer to the Jew first. Previously unknown blessings and riches are promised equally to Jew and Gentile alike on the simple basis of faith alone in Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for the individual’s sin, without works of any kind either to be saved, stay saved or prove that one is saved, for God knows those who are His.


That is my understanding of MAD stated as briefly as I can state it.

Now the question is, Why do people who reject MAD seem to find it more intolerable than other doctrinal systems with which they also do not agree? I have found two basic reasons.

1. They don’t really understand MAD because what they have heard is not accurate. They believe a straw man version of MAD. In response, MADs try to clarify our position but usually with limited success.

2. They do understand MAD, or enough of it to hate what it implies for their own doctrinal position. I’ve found this to be the most common of the two, at least on TOL.

When you dig deep enough, informed objections to MAD (#2 above) tend to stem from one of two related roots. The opponent to MAD believes either (a) that the Christian Church has in some sense inherited the promised blessings, signs and covenants that God made solely with, or intended only for, national Israel, or (b) that the Christian Church has replaced national Israel outright. There is usually overlap between these two positions as they do stem from the same root, but objections boil down to one or the other.

Objection (a) can be seen in the opposition to MAD by Pentecostals, charismatics, various cultists and works-oriented members of Christendom who have been deceived into adopting Israel’s deactivated covenant works or sign gifts as necessary to salvation today, or necessary to their sanctification – some version of water baptism being the #1 expression of this error. Thus very, very few within Christendom today truly believe as Paul taught, that salvation is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS but almost all opponents of MAD, if they’re honest, will admit that they believe some degree of human religious effort [works] is involved in either getting themselves saved or keeping themselves saved. According to Paul, all such are believing a false gospel (Gal 1:8-9).

Objection (b) is straightforward enough among those denominations and cults that have adopted some variation on Replacement theology, wherein it is believed God will never again deal with Israel as His nation and all of His promises (and even warnings) have already been fulfilled in the past and/or fulfilled in the Christian church; hence the foolish "Zionist" label that is sometimes thrown against MADs as well as other dispensationalists.

In my opinion, even though they claim to uphold the entirety of God's Word (which they invariably and falsely accuse MADs of not doing), those holding to either of these dual errors deny the reliability of God and His Word because He has promised to someday once again deal with the world via Christ's redeemed nation Israel. However, He will do this ONLY after He has ended this dispensation of grace wherein there is “no distinction” between Jew and Gentile. In the meantime, He is not sovereignty judging anyone for error; He is not opening the ground beneath the feet of lying teachers and false prophets. He has given His Word and His Gospel of grace. For now He has nothing more to say. Such is grace!

So while some, by God's grace, do come to see the revelation of the mystery (Eph 3:8-9), the leaven of the errors described above - taking what God intended only for Israel while rejecting all He's given to the Body of Christ, and you can't have both - can only compound, spread and grow worse as this age of grace draws to its inevitable close.
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Okay, this is part of it, some MAD see ONLY themselves as trusting Christ's work. That's a deal breaker because then others HAVE to contest (or be assimilated). So # 1 exclusivity of MAD only Christianity with some MAD is going to always be objectionable. I'm pretty sure most MAD don't believe the rest of Christianity is preaching another gospel.
Remedy: I'm still trying to hammer out one. I'm not sure at least with some MAD, such can be hammered out.
The question is: Can someone be saved if they are mistaken about works? For me, in some scenarios the answer is yes, and others the answer is no. I think for some people in all camps, the answer is always "no."

#2 Lifestyle. I'm not sure the internet is always the best way to be a fruit inspector. We can edit a bit more freely, but we also have a certain anonymity to be able to speak our minds more freely. Regardless, MAD doesn't look at fruit, but profession, by its very nature. By the nature of other Christians, they are looking at both fruit and profession. Such is a natural conflict. I tend to agree with MAD on this point, not that fruit doesn't come out of our lives nor that we aren't accountable to one another, but rather that we cannot ascertain one's salvation by inspection. MADists on TOL tend to steer away from all fruit discussion, almost as if anathema. I think I understand this, because such draws awfully close to Galatian's warning about not being Judaized and being accursed.

Remedy: I think just keep sharing the gospel and try to not knee-jerk at every mention of doctrinal differences. Some people are willing to change if they can be shown from scripture. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to become MAD, but I at least want to understand what you believe and why you believe it. I'm not Dispensational either.


#3 probably "Smack!" Nobody likes being smacked all the time. There are some genuinely nice MAD people on TOL but they tend to be 'silent' instead of the needed 'quiet.' :)

Remedy: I've taken the time to get to know a lot of MADists and I think a lot of friction (though not agreement on doctrine) disappears with getting to know one another. Okay, a few MADists I know think I'm demon-spawn, because of their specific stance on MAD, but if I can be at least a civil hell-bound swine I try to be, and encourage them to pray for me over the matter, it seems to put out a few of those fires (and 'ignore' helps too with a couple of them). I'm not sure 'hell' has to always be the motivator, even for these MADists. I was concerned about my sins, but when I came to Christ, it wasn't just to escape sin and death, it was also to have life and be with God. The attractive thing about MAD is that it is a salvation, completely by grace. Salvation by faith alone, but saving faith is not alone. That is, we get a whole lot of things going right for us at salvation. The Holy Spirit indwells us, seals us, and prompts us. Because of that, 'fruit-inspection' isn't always a bad word. We can do it of ourselves, to see what Christ is doing and changing in us, for example.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Nang said:
Too much teaching from Jesus, found in the gospels, is pushed aside and/or neglected,
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That is one of my true objections to those in the religious, denominational system who claim they are fulfilling the so called "Great commission".
 
Doom

Doom

New member
SaulToPaul said:
If I can get a testimony of believing 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) out of a poster, I won't press them too much on other issues of doctrine.
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Unfortunately, to say that the death of Jesus was only effective for some sins of some people, is to not believe 1 Cor 15:1-4.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Nang said:
Too much teaching from Jesus, found in the gospels, is pushed aside and/or neglected, in order to overemphasize I Corinthians 15:1-4.
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Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
 
Nick M

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Lon said:
Okay, this is part of it, some MAD see ONLY themselves as trusting Christ's work.
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No, anybody that does not reject the gospel we see as in the Body. When people reject that God died for sin at the cross we know they do not believe and are trying to deceive.

Robert Pate has a hard time letting go of Pentecost being the start, yet he never preaches that gospel and only preaches Paul's gospel. Just to give you an example.
 
Ktoyou

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Nick M said:
I admit, I have been brought under the power of bacon. :banana:

12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
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I like pork and so what?
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Nang said:
My main objection to MAD is that it is "Paul" centered, rather than Christ centered.

Too much teaching from Jesus, found in the gospels, is pushed aside and/or neglected, in order to overemphasize I Corinthians 15:1-4.
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How could anyone think that the gospel of Christ could ever be "over" emphasized? You are a devil.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
SaulToPaul said:
If I can get a testimony of believing 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) out of a poster, I won't press them too much on other issues of doctrine.
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I used to fight the MADianites [ :) ] I thought it was a cult like SDA but I see that I was wrong.

If a person believes 1. Cor. 15. 1-4 it's good enough for me.

But I think it is certain MADianites who get angry at those of us who take a different view.

What is positive is that they does believe in the Millennial reign and OSAS. that affords much fellowship.
 
steko

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Nick M said:
I admit, I have been brought under the power of bacon. :banana:

12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
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Tambora said:
I like to sprinkle a little brown sugar on bacon while cooking it.
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I like my eggs fried in bacon grease.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
heir said:
How could anyone think that the gospel of Christ could ever be "over" emphasized? You are a devil.
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I think Paul's one teaching in I Corinthians 15 is gospel, but overemphasized, at the expense of the rest of the gospel teachings that permeate all of scripture.

MAD would do better to focus on the teachings of Jesus, in order to know the full Gospel message of grace.
 
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