What is forgiveness?

[PureX]

Let me try to understand. Are you of the opinion that there are no physical acts of forgiveness, because forgiveness is a thought and never a word or deed?

There are physical "acts of forgiveness" if we choose to physically act on our forgiveness of others. For example, telling someone that we forgive them is a physical act, presumably based on our having forgiven them. Or perhaps forgoing an offer or demand for some form of restitution might also be considered a physical "act of forgiveness" based on our having forgiven them. But the forgiveness itself is not an act unless we proclaim that choosing to forgive, in our own mind and heart, is an "action". And that is a semantic determination.

Are you likewise of the opinion that there are no physical acts of biblical love, because such love is a thought and never a word or deed?

Love is love. The 'biblicality' of love being expressed as action is a separate issue.

Love is not the deed. Love is the internal spirit that inspires and enables the external deed.

Forgiveness is not the deed, forgiveness is the internal choice that enables the external deed (if some external deed is deemed appropriate).

Likewise, sin is not a deed. Sin is the internal spirit of self-centered fear and grandiosity that inspires and enables us to commit 'sinful acts'.

I don't like to blindly conflate the internal spirit with the external deed. Doing so creates the illusion that I can see into men's souls, and I cannot.

 

[glorydaz]

I appreciate your thoughtful replies. [emoji846]

In the musical Les Miserabes the pastor forgave the man who stole from him. He did not press charges. He even gave the man more valuable items. He encouraged the man to forgive others the way he had forgiven and to use the money he received from selling the valuables to help others suffering like he was suffering. He said this was God's purpose for him. That night the man prayed to God, asking for forgiveness and thanking him as he wept. The man went on to make a real difference in the lives of many poor people, especially one orphaned girl.

But would you say such actions are foolishness, that such only happens in tales of fiction, that it only a fool would take such a risk to love?

One of my favorite books, and I thought of it as I was posting my reply. I would say, in this day and age, such actions would undoubtedly be closer to foolishness than charitable. Jan Valjean went to a church as a last resort. There were no social services or homeless shelters available. There are now, and someone who opts to go to a private home to beg is avoiding those shelters for some reason. Not good ones, either.

 

[glorydaz]

How do you know? (Scripture to support your premise, please.)

You need scripture to prove that we can never be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect? Really? :think:

When I read what Paul wrote, I wonder how far my faith should take the meaning of the word all.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

(Philippians 4:13)

All things I need to do. All things God has called me to do. All things that are required of me by God. All things God enables me to do.

 

[Eric h]

Now may the peace of the Lord be with you, be with you

Now may the peace of the Lord be with you, be with you

Now and always



May the Lord bless you

May the Lord keep you

And may God's face shine upon you always

And give you peace

And give you peace

Is such a prayer an example of forgiveness?

Jesus commanded us to love and pray for our enemies. So if you think of the person you need to forgive, whilst saying this prayer, I think that counts towards praying for those who hurt you.

If you sincerely desire them to be blessed and find peace, it will help you to find peace also, it can feel like a great weight has been lifted from you.

 

[Eric h]

When people have had a few drinks, they seem to ask profound questions about God. I remember a lady asking me, I get into lots of fights and beat people up, will God forgive me.
My answer was to say, I think you are asking the wrong question, the question you need to ask yourself is this, next time I am angry and want to hit someone, can I search in my heart for a way to forgive that person. If you can forgive them, you will come to understand how God can forgive you.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

You appear to be searching for the technicalities of forgiveness. The bottom line to me, is that I have to say something to myself, or do something that convinces only me, that I am letting go of the pain of injustice and anger.

Things are not as they appear in this case. I'm actually wondering about the methodologies of forgiving. Knowing how a person forgives helps me see what they believe forgiveness is. The goal is to help me decide what forgiveness is myself, which will in turn show me how to forgive, as God would have me.

It is of no interest to me, if the other person is repentant or not. In fact I would say it is probably more beneficial for the offender to repent, than for the offender to accept repentance as a price for forgiveness.

I hear what you are saying. But then I hear what Jesus is saying and wonder what the truth is.

"3 So watch yourselves. If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

(Luke 17)

In logic and software programming, it's a conditional statement. Only if the condition is met should the result take place. So I wonder if only if one repents should forgiveness take place.

Anger is like picking up a burning coal, with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers you, the person who gets burned the most is me.

The longer I hold onto this burning coal of anger, the hotter it becomes, the more it eats away at me.

Do you think it possible to forgive partially? To let go of the anger, yet still refuse to say or do anything that might show the forgiven one she is forgiven--refuse to pray for her, refuse to say you forgive her, and so on?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

There are physical "acts of forgiveness" if we choose to physically act on our forgiveness of others. For example, telling someone that we forgive them is a physical act, presumably based on our having forgiven them. Or perhaps forgoing an offer or demand for some form of restitution might also be considered a physical "act of forgiveness" based on our having forgiven them. But the forgiveness itself is not an act unless we proclaim that choosing to forgive, in our own mind and heart, is an "action". And that is a semantic determination.
Love is love. The 'biblicality' of love being expressed as action is a separate issue.

Love is not the deed. Love is the internal spirit that inspires and enables the external deed.

Forgiveness is not the deed, forgiveness is the internal choice that enables the external deed (if some external deed is deemed appropriate).

Likewise, sin is not a deed. Sin is the internal spirit of self-centered fear and grandiosity that inspires and enables us to commit 'sinful acts'.

I don't like to blindly conflate the internal spirit with the external deed. Doing so creates the illusion that I can see into men's souls, and I cannot.

I must say that I'm thankful to God and you for having this dialog! Your thoughts are clear, concise, cogent and consistent. It's refreshing to speak to such a logical thinker. I have great expectations I will find the answers I've sought for so long about how to forgive.

Now to be sure I understand, please allow me to use a brief analogy. You and I are sitting at table with a fresh baked pie. I say, "This pie is all that is in your mind and nothing outside your mind."

I take a knife and cut a large slice of the pie and put it on a plate for you, and I say, "This slice is all in your mind that is love. Now please cut me a slice that is all the forgiveness in your mind."

My question: Would you cut a slice from the pie on your plate, or would you cut a slice from the pie that is not on your plate?

 

[PureX]

I must say that I'm thankful to God and you for having this dialog! Your thoughts are clear, concise, cogent and consistent. It's refreshing to speak to such a logical thinker. I have great expectations I will find the answers I've sought for so long about how to forgive.

Now to be sure I understand, please allow me to use a brief analogy. You and I are sitting at table with a fresh baked pie. I say, "This pie is all that is in your mind and nothing outside your mind."

I take a knife and cut a large slice of the pie and put it on a plate for you, and I say, "This slice is all in your mind that is love. Now please cut me a slice that is all the forgiveness in your mind."

My question: Would you cut a slice from the pie on your plate, or would you cut a slice from the pie that is not on your plate?

Excusing the limitations of the binary absolutism of the analogy, I would cut the 'forgiveness' from the piece on my plate. Because forgiveness is something that happens, first, in my own mind and heart. And then becomes manifested in my actions toward others to varying degrees and intents, as a result.

It begins with my making the choice to change the way I am reacting to some offense, in my heart and mind. Once that choice has been made: the choice to let go in my mind, then I will likely have to practice that choice for a while, until my heart has finally come into alignment with my decision.

After having done this a few times, and finding that it has a positive effect on myself and others, I may then choose to make forgiveness an ongoing life practice.

If I were to find that it wasn't 'working for me', I would then begin to examine my understanding and practice of the process of forgiveness more closely. As it seems to have worked for others, and I would want to know why it wasn't working for me.

 

[Spockrates]

One of my favorite books, and I thought of it as I was posting my reply. I would say, in this day and age, such actions would undoubtedly be closer to foolishness than charitable. Jan Valjean went to a church as a last resort. There were no social services or homeless shelters available. There are now, and someone who opts to go to a private home to beg is avoiding those shelters for some reason. Not good ones, either.

Well, I can't speak for the poor where you live, but here in Indiana, couch surfing is a common practice for the homeless. I suppose, though such surfers must know a friend or relative of the one on whose couch he sleeps. In this context, I believe the example might apply.

 

[Spockrates]

You need scripture to prove that we can never be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect? Really? :think:







All things I need to do. All things God has called me to do. All things that are required of me by God. All things God enables me to do.

I need to know what forgiveness is. For God has called me to forgive. He requires me to forgive, the way he forgave me. Is this what he will enable me to do?

 

[Spockrates]

When people have had a few drinks, they seem to ask profound questions about God. I remember a lady asking me, I get into lots of fights and beat people up, will God forgive me.

My answer was to say, I think you are asking the wrong question, the question you need to ask yourself is this, next time I am angry and want to hit someone, can I search in my heart for a way to forgive that person. If you can forgive them, you will come to understand how God can forgive you.

What if he replied, but I do always forgive them, right before I throw the first punch! I feel no anger, I just enjoy a good fight! Would you think he was mistaken about what forgiveness is?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Excusing the limitations of the binary absolutism of the analogy, I would cut the 'forgiveness' from the piece on my plate. Because forgiveness is something that happens, first, in my own mind and heart. And then becomes manifested in my actions toward others to varying degrees and intents, as a result.

It begins with my making the choice to change the way I am reacting to some offense, in my heart and mind. Once that choice has been made: the choice to let go of my anger and resentment in my mind, then I will likely have to practice that choice for a while, until my heart has finally come into alignment with my decision.

After having done this a few times, and finding that it has a positive effect on myself and others, I may then choose to make forgiveness an ongoing life practice.

If I were to find that it wasn't 'working for me', I would then begin to examine my understanding and practice of the process of forgiveness more closely. As it seems to have worked for others, and I would want to know why it wasn't working for me.

Then you would say forgiveness is a kind of love, for it's cut from the love slice of your mind. I think I'd say the same. The inference, I believe is that forgiveness is more than ceasing to feel anger and resentment. For one who is indifferent can accomplish such. However love is not indifference, as we earlier said--it's compassion. Forgiveness, being a kind of love, must be compassion too, I think. Don't you?

 

[PureX]

Then you would say forgiveness is a kind of love, for it's cut from the love slice of your mind. I think I'd say the same. The inference, I believe is that forgiveness is more than ceasing to feel anger and resentment. For one who is indifferent can accomplish such. However love is not indifference, as we earlier said--it's compassion. Forgiveness, being a kind of love, must be compassion too, I think. Don't you?

I think forgiveness is a process, so that it happens in stages, or increments. It starts with a conscious decision. The decision to forgive. But then there is an internal process we have to go through to achieve that goal. That process starts with just letting go of the anger and resentment we feel, so as to achieve 'indifference'. That's just to counteract the spiritual toxicity of the offense against us. This isn't that easy of a thing for most of us to do, because it's often the case that WE are somewhat to blame for what's happened to us, as well. And we need to untangle our part in the offense from the offender's part in it. And this requires a level of self-honesty that isn't easy for most of us to achieve. It takes practice, and persistence, … and courage.

Then, once we untangle ourselves, and let go of our anger and resentment toward the offender, hopefully our natural inclination toward empathy and compassion can begin to kick in. Especially seeing that we will have by now accepted some responsibility for the events in question, ourselves (if we were to some degree responsible. We aren't always). And this, I believe, is when we begin to see the bigger picture regarding the ideal of loving others as we are loved, and forgiving others as we are forgiven. Because by now, we will have seen that we ALL need to be loved, and deserve or do not deserve it, equally. Just as we ALL need to be forgiven, and deserve or do not deserve it, equally.

I have offended others, both knowingly and unknowingly, and I need to be forgiven for this, just as others have offended me both knowingly and unknowingly, and they need to be forgiven for this. Whether they know they need it or not. And even whether they accept it or not. Understanding this; forgiveness becomes a philosophy/lifestyle. (Some might even say a 'religion'.)

 

[Spockrates]

I think forgiveness is a process, so that it happens in stages, or increments. It starts with a conscious decision. The decision to forgive. But then there is an internal process we have to go through to achieve that goal. That process starts with just letting go of the anger and resentment we feel, so as to achieve 'indifference'. That's just to counteract the spiritual toxicity of the offense against us. This isn't that easy of a thing for most of us to do, because it's often the case that WE are somewhat to blame for what's happened to us, as well. And we need to untangle our part in the offense from the offender's part in it. And this requires a level of self-honesty that isn't easy for most of us to achieve. It takes practice, and persistence, … and courage.

Then, once we untangle ourselves, and let go of our anger and resentment toward the offender, hopefully our natural inclination toward empathy and compassion can begin to kick in. Especially seeing that we will have by now accepted some responsibility for the events in question, ourselves (if we were to some degree responsible. We aren't always). And this, I believe, is when we begin to see the bigger picture regarding the ideal of loving others as we are loved, and forgiving others as we are forgiven. Because by now, we will have seen that we ALL need to be loved, and deserve or do not deserve it, equally. Just as we ALL need to be forgiven, and deserve or do not deserve it, equally.

I have offended others, both knowingly and unknowingly, and I need to be forgiven for this, just as others have offended me both knowingly and unknowingly, and they need to be forgiven for this. Whether they know they need it or not. And even whether they accept it or not. Understanding this; forgiveness becomes a philosophy/lifestyle. (Some might even say a 'religion'.)

Then it seems you gave me the wrong slice of pie! For love never begins with indifference and later becomes compassion. In fact, one might logically infer that indifference is the antithesis of love.

Perhaps we should admit the mistake and say forgiveness is not love, but prepares the way for love? Or would it be more accurate to say there are two slices of forgiveness pie? One slice from your plate, and one slice not from your plate? That is, should we say there are two kinds of forgiving--one that is love and one that is merely indifference?

 

[glorydaz]

Well, I can't speak for the poor where you live, but here in Indiana, couch surfing is a common practice for the homeless. I suppose, though such surfers must know a friend or relative of the one on whose couch he sleeps. In this context, I believe the example might apply.

All the difference in the world. I've had more people living in this house for varying lengths of time than I can count. :chuckle:

 

[PureX]

Then it seems you gave me the wrong slice of pie! For love never begins with indifference and later becomes compassion. In fact, one might logically infer that indifference is the antithesis of love.

Perhaps we should admit the mistake and say forgiveness is not love, but prepares the way for love? Or would it be more accurate to say there are two slices of forgiveness pie? One slice from your plate, and one slice not from your plate? That is, should we say there are two kinds of forgiving--one that is love and one that is merely indifference?

Love is a spiritual state. Forgiveness is a choice and a means of repairing that spiritual state when it's been damaged by someone, or something. Indifference, in this instance, is just a temporary position on the pathway to spiritual recovery. There's no need to make too big a deal of it.

 

[glorydaz]

I need to know what forgiveness is. For God has called me to forgive. He requires me to forgive, the way he forgave me. Is this what he will enable me to do?

Always wait on the Lord....the more you try to do something, the more satan will accuse you of failing. Once you admit you can never love or forgive as you should....as God does....He will give you the peace, and the understanding there is really NOTHING left for you to forgive.

Why do you think we are to count it ALL JOY when we fall into diverse temptations? This trying of your faith works patience....be patient. You will not want for a forgiving heart...God will work it in you.

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.​

 

[Eric h]

What if he replied, but I do always forgive them, right before I throw the first punch!

If you have truly forgiven, then you give up the right to throw a punch

I feel no anger, I just enjoy a good fight! Would you think he was mistaken about what forgiveness is

Yes, I believe he would be mistaken

 

[Spockrates]

All the difference in the world. I've had more people living in this house for varying lengths of time than I can count. :chuckle:

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Love is a spiritual state. Forgiveness is a choice and a means of repairing that spiritual state when it's been damaged by someone, or something. Indifference, in this instance, is just a temporary position on the pathway to spiritual recovery. There's no need to make too big a deal of it.

Is a spiritual state the same as a choice? If not, then please forgive me for misunderstanding you earlier. For it now seems clear you are saying forgiveness is not at all a kind of love.

I'm thinking we can choose to adopt a state, but that choice to become is not the same as being. Also the state I'm in might influence my choices, but the choices they influence are not the same as the state that influences them. So yes, I'm sure you must be of the opinion that forgiveness is in no way love, though it might be a cause or consequence of love.

And forgive for making such a big deal about forgiveness. You see, it is a big deal to me.