What is forgiveness?

[Spockrates]

I think it's very interesting that there are ideals that create their own reality, when they're adopted. "God" is one of those ideals, and so is the value (spiritual healing) of 'forgiveness', I think. The justifications of these ideals are not found so much in their logic, or their evidential proofs, it's found in their embodiment. We need to take them into ourselves, as a conceptual paradigm, and live by them for a while, to see if and how they really 'work' for us. Only then can we reasonably decide the truthfulness of them, as ideals.

It's almost like adopting a personality, and living as if it's us, to see if our life would be better as that person. What a strange and interesting thing to do!

But in a way, I think this is what we have to do to learn the 'truth' about forgiveness. (Or about "God".) We have to take the ideal into ourselves, and live through it for a while, to understand it and determine it's relevance to ourselves.

Yes, but what if someone starts with the wrong conceptual paradigm? What if what she thinks forgiveness is turns out to be nothing like forgiveness at all? Will taking this false forgiveness into herself and living by it bring her closer to the truth about forgiving? Or will such an imposter deceive her even more once she has made it part of who she is?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. You have to know WHY the Lord "commanded us" to forgive others. He did it NOT because He expected us to do so, or even thought we could.



When our Lord walked among us, He preached the LAW....knowing full well that righteousness does not come from law keeping. So He laid it out......... the impossibility of being righteous. Here is what the law expects. Do you think the Lord Jesus Christ believed we could be perfect when He said this?

Matt. 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

It has to dawn upon each one of us....our inability and our need. "Wow, I can never be perfect as God." "Wow, I can never forgive others the way God does." Until we get to that point, we still stand on our feet thinking we can perform that which is impossible for us to perform. We must be brought to our knees. We must look to God for His GRACE. Which is what the Risen LORD revealed to Paul.

Well, I suppose that depends on what he meant by the word perfect. If perfection means always and every moment being as good as God, then I don't see how anyone can be.

But what if it means something else? What if Christ was speaking not of continuous perfection, but beautiful--albeit fleeting--seconds of perfection? Like sunsets, or crickets making music on a warm summer night, or encounters with rarely seen wildlife, or the sound of an autumn breeze flowing through the leaves still on the trees--these last only a moment, but they bring me great personal satisfaction. They are like brief glimpses into eternity for me. What if we indeed can be as perfect as God--in brief, beautiful moments of selfless love--but only for moments at a time?

 

[heir]

"To forgive is to cancel out, as though it had never happened." That kind of forgiveness sounds amazing to me!

That's what happened 2000 years ago!

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Have you received the gift of God through our Lord Jesus Christ? If not, trust Him now believing that Christ died for your sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day as the means by which we are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

 

[Spockrates]

That's what happened 2000 years ago!

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Have you received the gift of God through our Lord Jesus Christ? If not, trust Him now believing that Christ died for your sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day as the means by which we are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

Thank you, Heir. I suppose it would more amaze me to see you or me forgive like he. [emoji846]

 

[Eric h]

You find a homeless man sleeping outside your home. You invite him to spend the night, give him food, a warm bed, clothing. During the night he steals your best silverware and sneaks out. But police catch him leaving your home with the stolen goods. They ring your doorbell to wake you up, explaining their arrest and ask if you want to press charges.

That is a bit of a soft example, if you don't mind me saying, in theory you will get your silver back, so there should not be a great deal to be angry about.

What about something more extreme, you are stabbed in the back, and end up being paralysed from the waist down, could you forgive your assailant if he were caught?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

That is a bit of a soft example, if you don't mind me saying, in theory you will get your silver back, so there should not be a great deal to be angry about.

If you get your silverware back, does that mean forgiveness is not an act? Does that also mean the homeless man goes to jail?

What about something more extreme, you are stabbed in the back, and end up being paralysed from the waist down, could you forgive your assailant if he were caught?

Please tell me what you believe forgiveness is, then I'll be able to tell you if it is something I'd be able to say, think or do. But if you or I don't know what the word means, how can we truly say we have forgiven?

 

[glorydaz]

"To forgive is to cancel out, as though it had never happened." That kind of forgiveness sounds amazing to me! Let me see if it really is as it sounds by way of a practical application.

You find a homeless man sleeping outside your home. You invite him to spend the night, give him food, a warm bed, clothing. During the night he steals your best silverware and sneaks out. But police catch him leaving your home with the stolen goods. They ring your doorbell to wake you up, explaining their arrest and ask if you want to press charges.

Do you agree to press charges? Do you forgive the man? If so, in what way do you forgive him?

What's to forgive? I was stupid enough to invite him into my home where he could have killed me instead of just stolen from me? I'd be thankful the Lord kept me safe. When the cops came to my door, I'd press charges. That way the guy might learn not to do that to the next person who offered to help him.

That said, I found out long ago that "amateur providence" is something I need to avoid. I'm not helping someone by enabling them.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, I suppose that depends on what he meant by the word perfect. If perfection means always and every moment being as good as God, then I don't see how anyone can be.

But what if it means something else? What if Christ was speaking not of continuous perfection, but beautiful--albeit fleeting--seconds of perfection? Like sunsets, or crickets making music on a warm summer night, or encounters with rarely seen wildlife, or the sound of an autumn breeze flowing through the leaves still on the trees--these last only a moment, but they bring me great personal satisfaction. They are like brief glimpses into eternity for me. What if we indeed can be as perfect as God--in brief, beautiful moments of selfless love--but only for moments at a time?

Nope, we can never be as perfect as God....not even for brief moments. That's what humanists aim for.

 

[Eric h]

If you get your silverware back, does that mean forgiveness is not an act? Does that also mean the homeless man goes to jail?

If you forgive the homeless man, then he should walk free. If you want him to go to jail, then you have not really forgiven him.

Please tell me what you believe forgiveness is, then I'll be able to tell you if it is something I'd be able to say, think or do. But if you or I don't know what the word means, how can we truly say we have forgiven?

I listened to a man tell his story, he had been signed up to play football with David Beckham at Layton Orient, he had a promising career ahead of him, but he was stabbed in the back. He has been paralyzed from the waist down for the last twenty seven years, his prison is a wheel chair which he will never escape from. They caught the man who did this, he served four years in prison, then was able to walk out of prison on his own two feet. In the eyes of the law, justice had been served. But from the confines of a wheelchair, even if the man repented, this would not be true justice,

He said he fights two diseases; the lesser disease is being paralysed, and the greater disease; was the anger he held against this man for many years. His thoughts were on crippling this man and getting even. He learned to drive an adapted car, he found out where his assailant lived, then stalked him with the intention of running him down. But one day, he felt the need to let go, and only then did he start to find some kind of peace. He started to forgive and let go of the anger that was eating away at him. He let go of the very real need to get evan.

This is a process he has to come to terms with every day being trapped in a wheelchair.

He now gives lectures around the UK on the power of forgiveness.

 

[heir]

Thank you, Heir. I suppose it would more amaze me to see you or me forgive like he. [emoji846]

It's our pattern for forgiving one another

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[LoneStar]

Is suicide forgiveness? I mean, isn't suicide the death of self love, since killing oneself is an act of self hatred?

Suicide can only be committed to the flesh. Since we are not to consider the flesh as anything to hold on to, I would think suicide would not be considered a crime against God.

 

[Eric h]

Suicide can only be committed to the flesh. Since we are not to consider the flesh as anything to hold on to, I would think suicide would not be considered a crime against God.

I came into contact with two people, who were in the process of committing suicide, the need to forgive on both occasions, meant the difference between death and life.

I called round on the off chance that an acquaintance might be at home, after a moment, she said, if I tell you something will you promise not to tell anyone.
I truthfully thought she was going to tell me some gossip, so I said go on then.
She said I am ending my life, I am taking more Paracetomols every day than I should, then it will destroy my liver.

This was a very calculated suicide, once the liver was destroyed, there would be no turning back, she knew it would be a slow and painful death.

She told me her story, her husband had used and abused her before running off with another woman. She got back on her feet again, and then her business partner ran off with the assets, her children only came round to see her when they wanted something. Then one more horrible thing was done to her, so she lost the will to live.

I remember saying to her, death is not the problem we all die, but it is not in your nature to die an angry bitter and twisted woman, you are a kind and caring person. Even if you continue to take these tablets, search in your heart for a way to forgive this person, and let go of the pain.

She talked a bit more, I talked more about forgiving, then there comes the point when everything is said, and I had to walk away. I said to her, it is pointless coming round again for a chat, but she said come back. I phoned her up later, and she said why are you phoning, just pop round like you normally do. When I came to see her the following month, she had decorated her kitchen and was planning a holiday. She never mentioned suicide again.

Looking back twenty years, I know I placed a terrible burden on her, every day she would remember her loss, and have to let go of her deep sense of pain and depression.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

What's to forgive? I was stupid enough to invite him into my home where he could have killed me instead of just stolen from me? I'd be thankful the Lord kept me safe. When the cops came to my door, I'd press charges. That way the guy might learn not to do that to the next person who offered to help him.



That said, I found out long ago that "amateur providence" is something I need to avoid. I'm not helping someone by enabling them.

I appreciate your thoughtful replies. [emoji846]

In the musical Les Miserabes the pastor forgave the man who stole from him. He did not press charges. He even gave the man more valuable items. He encouraged the man to forgive others the way he had forgiven and to use the money he received from selling the valuables to help others suffering like he was suffering. He said this was God's purpose for him. That night the man prayed to God, asking for forgiveness and thanking him as he wept. The man went on to make a real difference in the lives of many poor people, especially one orphaned girl.

But would you say such actions are foolishness, that such only happens in tales of fiction, that it only a fool would take such a risk to love?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Nope, we can never be as perfect as God....not even for brief moments. That's what humanists aim for.

How do you know? (Scripture to support your premise, please.)

When I read what Paul wrote, I wonder how far my faith should take the meaning of the word all.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

(Philippians 4:13)

 

[Spockrates]

If you forgive the homeless man, then he should walk free. If you want him to go to jail, then you have not really forgiven him.









I listened to a man tell his story, he had been signed up to play football with David Beckham at Layton Orient, he had a promising career ahead of him, but he was stabbed in the back. He has been paralyzed from the waist down for the last twenty seven years, his prison is a wheel chair which he will never escape from. They caught the man who did this, he served four years in prison, then was able to walk out of prison on his own two feet. In the eyes of the law, justice had been served. But from the confines of a wheelchair, even if the man repented, this would not be true justice,



He said he fights two diseases; the lesser disease is being paralysed, and the greater disease; was the anger he held against this man for many years. His thoughts were on crippling this man and getting even. He learned to drive an adapted car, he found out where his assailant lived, then stalked him with the intention of running him down. But one day, he felt the need to let go, and only then did he start to find some kind of peace. He started to forgive and let go of the anger that was eating away at him. He let go of the very real need to get evan.



This is a process he has to come to terms with every day being trapped in a wheelchair.



He now gives lectures around the UK on the power of forgiveness.

Thank you for another reply, Eric. In both examples, you seem to speak of a forgiveness with feet. The man in the wheelchair, for example didn't just cease to feel anger and didn't just give lip service by merely saying he forgave. His forgiving got up and walked. For he stopped seeking justice.

So would you say that, if possible one should always get up and take action to forgive? Also would you say such forgiving acts are forgiveness?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

It's our pattern for forgiving one another

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Well said, Heir! So I'm feeling good and hopeful that we are onto something, here. Since we are to forgive even as Christ forgave us, if we can describe how Christ forgave us, then we will know how to forgive. For the logical we will forgive the same way. That will be the logical inference defining what forgiveness is. Don't you think?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Suicide can only be committed to the flesh. Since we are not to consider the flesh as anything to hold on to, I would think suicide would not be considered a crime against God.

Hi, Lonestar. Agreed. But I suppose suicide of the flesh would be a kind of suicide of the soul if it results in the soul being forever separated from Christ, who said he is the life.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(John 14:6)

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Once again, thanks to all who are answering my questions. I have people I need to forgive and am hopeful we are close to clarifying what forgiving really is. And thanks to SurrenderSacrifice for starting the discussion. [emoji846]

At this point there seem to be two thoughts on the meaning of forgiveness: Some essentially say (1) Forgiveness is what you feel, and others essentially say instead (2) forgiveness is what you do. While oversimplified, I believe this to be the contrary conclusions at the moment. Is there anyone who believes (3) forgiveness is both, or (4) forgiveness is neither?

 

[heir]

Well said, Heir! So I'm feeling good and hopeful that we are onto something, here. Since we are to forgive even as Christ forgave us, if we can describe how Christ forgave us, then we will know how to forgive. For the logical we will forgive the same way. That will be the logical inference defining what forgiveness is. Don't you think?

God's forgiveness was "while", "when" and "even when"

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
...

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
...

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
...

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
...

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


We should forgive the same!

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[patrick jane]

Once again, thanks to all who are answering my questions. I have people I need to forgive and am hopeful we are close to clarifying what forgiving really is. And thanks to SurrenderSacrifice for starting the discussion. [emoji846]

At this point there seem to be two thoughts on the meaning of forgiveness: Some essentially say (1) Forgiveness is what you feel, and others essentially say instead (2) forgiveness is what you do. While oversimplified, I believe this to be the contrary conclusions at the moment. Is there anyone who believes (3) forgiveness is both, or (4) forgiveness is neither?

It is both, there must be a change mentally, emotionally, and by outward action. Forgiveness is a total experience and it feels great to forgive.