What is forgiveness?

[Spockrates]

God's forgiveness was "while", "when" and "even when"

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
...

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
...

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
...

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
...

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


We should forgive the same!

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Excellent! Now let's pray for wisdom and use what the Holy Spirit reveals about the meaning of these scriptures, and then complete this sentence:

The way Jesus forgave us was...

 

[heir]

Excellent! Now let's pray for wisdom and use what the Holy Spirit reveals about the meaning of these scriptures,

They mean what they say. Now, be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[PureX]

So there are no acts of forgiveness, since forgiveness is never an act?

Is choosing to let go of the anger and resentment within us that's been caused by the perceived actions of others, and "act"? If so, forgiveness is an action. If not, that I don't think forgiveness is an action. This is a semantic question that doesn't effect the phenomena, but only the labels.

 

[PureX]

Yes, but what if someone starts with the wrong conceptual paradigm? What if what she thinks forgiveness is turns out to be nothing like forgiveness at all? Will taking this false forgiveness into herself and living by it bring her closer to the truth about forgiving? Or will such an imposter deceive her even more once she has made it part of who she is?

This happens all the time.

A lot of people (Christians) think that forgiveness must be predicated on the offender's repentance. No repentance, no forgiveness. But this idea is antithetical to the function and purpose of forgiveness. It's even antithetical to the term, 'for-giveness', which clearly implies that it is a pre-emptive giving away of something, and not a requisite giving away of something.

In such cases of misunderstanding, we may or may not discover the true value of the idea of forgiveness, depending on whether or not we are willing to seek and accept correction along the way.

The same is true of other similar ideals, like "God". I'm sure you have noticed that angry vengeful men believe in an angry vengeful gods. Weak and frightened men believe in all-powerful gods that they seek to appease. Indecisive and confused men believe in dominant authoritative gods that tell them what to think and do. Lonely men believe their god is their 'invisible friend'. While loving and forgiving men believe in a loving and forgiving God. And on and on it goes.

We very often adopt the ideals that align with who we already are, and therefor we are not changed by them. Not unless we are willing to allow those ideals to be changed and improved, and ourselves along with them, as we live through them.

Many of us will not. And so many of us will become stuck in ourselves, and remain there for life.

 

[PureX]

It is both, there must be a change mentally, emotionally, and by outward action. Forgiveness is a total experience and it feels great to forgive.

What is the outward action of forgiveness? Telling the offender they are forgiven? Why do you believe this is necessary to the forgiver?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

What is the outward action of forgiveness? Telling the offender they are forgiven? Why do you believe this is necessary to the forgiver?

Forgiveness and reconciliation are often conflated by folks.

AMR

 

[PureX]

Forgiveness and reconciliation are often conflated by folks.

AMR

True, but I think it's important to understand that they are not the same things. And that forgiveness does not require or depend upon absolution and/or reconciliation. Forgiveness is a blessing in it's own right. As are absolution and reconciliation.

 

[Psalmist]

It isn't much, but I thought it might help.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109972
​

 

[Eric h]

So would you say that, if possible one should always get up and take action to forgive? Also would you say such forgiving acts are forgiveness?

I heard the story of the man being stabbed at the Street Pastor Conference last year, there was a time of worship afterwards, led by Graham Kendrick. We sang one of his hymns, 'May the peace of the Lord be with you' before we sang, he said think of all those you love and care for, there is only the one verse and we sang it a couple of times.

He then said, think of all those people who have hurt us, and the ones we need to forgive, then he made us sing the same verse another half dozen times, reminding us each time to think of the names of the people who have hurt us, before singing each verse. These are the words, and I can only say, when I looked around there were a lot of tears as we sang...


Now may the peace of the Lord be with you, be with you
Now may the peace of the Lord be with you, be with you
Now and always

May the Lord bless you
May the Lord keep you
And may God's face shine upon you always
And give you peace
And give you peace

Try the same, you can hear him sing at.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTmdu_8yMM

The thing with praying for your enemies has to be total, it is not thinking I will forgive you, you also pray that God will also forgive them.

 

[Spockrates]

It is both, there must be a change mentally, emotionally, and by outward action. Forgiveness is a total experience and it feels great to forgive.

So then I suppose there isn't one forgiveness. There must be two. For it is possible, I think to forgive in one's mind (or soul) without forgiving with one's actions. One might cease to feel anger and resentment without taking any action, as one person here said. An example might be forgiving one who is dead. It is not really possible to do act of forgiveness to benefit one who is deceased. That is, it's not, unless what Catholics teach about Purgatoty is true. A Catholic might say she is doing acts of forgiveness by praying for those who are now dead.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

They mean what they say. Now, be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Yes, but the passage does not explain what the words, "forgiving one another" actually mean. Hence my request to you to complete this sentence: The way Jesus forgave us was...

 

[Eric h]

A lot of people (Christians) think that forgiveness must be predicated on the offender's repentance.

Sometimes, I wonder how beneficial honest and sincere repentance truly is, and who benefits from it.

I listened to a man of about sixty years tell his story. When he was about ten years old, he lived on a farm; he was waiting for his dad to come home with a truck load of wood. His dad reversed down the drive, and he ran out to meet him, he hadn’t noticed his baby brother crawling after him. His Father reversed over his little brother and he died. Clearly it was a horrific accident, a moment’s relapse.

He blamed himself, his father blamed himself and his son, the mother blamed the pair of them, it tore the family apart. This man has lived about fifty years with the knowledge that he was partly responsible for the death of his brother.

I guess that no matter how many people tried to reassure him, by saying it was an accident, No matter how much he repented, deep down he has to live with it. Again, only by forgiving other people, will it help us understand that we can also be forgiven.

In the end we are told that we stand before a just, merciful and forgiving God.
When you think of it, only God can give true justice, he can restore the boy back to a greater good life after death. There is no crime we commit on this Earth, that God cannot put right

 

[Spockrates]

Is choosing to let go of the anger and resentment within us that's been caused by the perceived actions of others, and "act"? If so, forgiveness is an action. If not, that I don't think forgiveness is an action. This is a semantic question that doesn't effect the phenomena, but only the labels.

I think it's more than merely insignificant semantics. Consider Jesus' command to love:

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

(John 13:34)

Would you define love in this context as merely this? Choosing to feel compassion within us for others regardless of their perceived actions.

 

[PureX]

Sometimes, I wonder how beneficial honest and sincere repentance truly is, and who benefits from it.

I listened to a man of about sixty years tell his story. When he was about ten years old, he lived on a farm; he was waiting for his dad to come home with a truck load of wood. His dad reversed down the drive, and he ran out to meet him, he hadn’t noticed his baby brother crawling after him. His Father reversed over his little brother and he died. Clearly it was a horrific accident, a moment’s relapse.

He blamed himself, his father blamed himself and his son, the mother blamed the pair of them, it tore the family apart. This man has lived about fifty years with the knowledge that he was partly responsible for the death of his brother.

I guess that no matter how many people tried to reassure him, by saying it was an accident, No matter how much he repented, deep down he has to live with it. Again, only by forgiving other people, will it help us understand that we can also be forgiven.

In the end we are told that we stand before a just, merciful and forgiving God.
When you think of it, only God can give true justice, he can restore the boy back to a greater good life after death. There is no crime we commit on this Earth, that God cannot put right

That story is an excellent example of why we need to forgive, and to be forgiven, to free ourselves from the poison of anger, resentment, and guilt.

I don't know why that man would not accept forgiveness for something he did not do. I think his parents may have poisoned him with a guilt he didn't deserve to feel, and in time that guilt became his identity. And he was too afraid to let go of it. Maybe.

And I really liked your observation on how learning to forgive others helps us to learn to forgive ourselves. That is a profound truth. And it's also true of love, another of Jesus' admonishments to us.

I will share a story about that, if I can.

When I was in my first year or so of recovery from alcohol addiction, I was a regular and full participatory member of Alcoholics Anonymous. But for a long time in those early days, I still felt ashamed of myself for having wasted so much of my life as a drunk. And I could not love myself, or feel worthy of being loved, because of it.

But finally one day I was sitting in a meeting, surrounded by other alcoholics much the same as myself, and I was thinking about how much I truly admired and respected them for coming there, and for speaking out so honestly and intelligently about their addictions and their struggles in recovery. And finally it hit me that I was one of them! And that I was just as deserving of the praise and gratitude I felt for everyone else who was there! And that realization finally stuck in my heart and my mind. And from then on I knew that whenever I might feel myself to be "less than worthy" of love, of dignity, and of human respect, all I had to do is remind myself that I am of the the same value and worth as any other human being. And because I can and do genuinely appreciate my fellow humans, I can and do genuinely appreciate myself.

And a HUGE weight was lifted from me that day, that has never returned. Learning how to forgive and to love others taught me how to forgive and to love myself, in spite of the fact that we ALL still screw up. Because the love and forgiveness is ongoing. It's a way of life.

A it's good way of life, from my perspective.

 

[Spockrates]

I heard the story of the man being stabbed at the Street Pastor Conference last year, there was a time of worship afterwards, led by Graham Kendrick. We sang one of his hymns, 'May the peace of the Lord be with you' before we sang, he said think of all those you love and care for, there is only the one verse and we sang it a couple of times.



He then said, think of all those people who have hurt us, and the ones we need to forgive, then he made us sing the same verse another half dozen times, reminding us each time to think of the names of the people who have hurt us, before singing each verse. These are the words, and I can only say, when I looked around there were a lot of tears as we sang...





Now may the peace of the Lord be with you, be with you

Now may the peace of the Lord be with you, be with you

Now and always



May the Lord bless you

May the Lord keep you

And may God's face shine upon you always

And give you peace

And give you peace



Try the same, you can hear him sing at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTmdu_8yMM



The thing with praying for your enemies has to be total, it is not thinking I will forgive you, you also pray that God will also forgive them.

Is such a prayer an example of forgiveness?

 

[patrick jane]

Yes, but the passage does not explain what the words, "forgiving one another" actually mean. Hence my request to you to complete this sentence: The way Jesus forgave us was...

Romans 4:8 KJV -

 

[PureX]

I think it's more than merely insignificant semantics. Consider Jesus' command to love:

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

(John 13:34)

Would you define love in this context as merely this? Choosing to feel compassion within us for others regardless of their perceived actions.

That's a pretty good definition. But I will resist the idea of love being a desire to manipulate others, in any way, if it comes up.

That's the reason I am somewhat resistant to the idea that forgiveness requires actions relative to others. Or that it requires actions from others. The goal of being a Christian is to change within (to become manifestations of God's love and forgiveness and generosity and compassion, ourselves). Not to change others according to some religious blueprint invented by men.

I'm not averse to our telling someone that we forgive them, but such actions should be undertaken with great care and reflection. Because they can very easily become forms of manipulation that do more harm than good, to both the supposed "forgiver", and the "forgive-e". Proclaiming absolution on others can very easily become an act of pride and egotism disguising itself as forgiveness. Just as seeking absolution from others may well be an act of grandiose self-pity pretending to be contrition.

 

[Spockrates]

Romans 4:8 KJV -

Thank you for that scripture, Patrick. In another translation it reads:

"Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them."

I suppose that means there are no eternal consequences for those sins, since they do not count against us. Do you agree?

 

[Spockrates]

That's a pretty good definition. But I will resist the idea of love being a desire to manipulate others, in any way, if it comes up.

That's the reason I am somewhat resistant to the idea that forgiveness requires actions relative to others. Or that it requires actions from others. The goal of being a Christian is to change within (to become manifestations of God's love and forgiveness and generosity and compassion, ourselves). Not to change others according to some religious blueprint invented by men.

I'm not averse to our telling someone that we forgive them, but such actions should be undertaken with great care and reflection. Because they can very easily become forms of manipulation that do more harm than good, to both the supposed "forgiver", and the "forgive-e". Proclaiming absolution on others can very easily become an act of pride and egotism disguising itself as forgiveness. Just as seeking absolution from others may well be an act of grandiose self-pity pretending to be contrition.

Let me try to understand. Are you of the opinion that there are no physical acts of forgiveness, because forgiveness is a thought and never a word or deed? Are you likewise of the opinion that there are no physical acts of biblical love, because such love is a thought and never a word or deed?

 

[Eric h]

Is such a prayer an example of forgiveness?

You appear to be searching for the technicalities of forgiveness. The bottom line to me, is that I have to say something to myself, or do something that convinces only me, that I am letting go of the pain of injustice and anger.

It is of no interest to me, if the other person is repentant or not. In fact I would say it is probably more beneficial for the offender to repent, than for the offender to accept repentance as a price for forgiveness.

Anger is like picking up a burning coal, with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers you, the person who gets burned the most is me.

The longer I hold onto this burning coal of anger, the hotter it becomes, the more it eats away at me.