What is forgiveness?

[PureX]

So I find it fascinating that forgiveness seems at the moment to be nothing like a form of love, as I at first thought it must be. If true, it helps a great deal in figuring out the true meaning of forgiveness. For we would then be able to rule out every scripture about love as speaking of something other than forgiving.

Is everyone pretty much in agreement that forgiving is never loving and forgiveness cannot possibly be love?

Is a spiritual state the same as a choice? If not, then please forgive me for misunderstanding you earlier. For it now seems clear you are saying forgiveness is not at all a kind of love.

I am not an 'absolutist'. I do not experience life in terms of binary absolutes that are 'all this' or 'all that'. Everything is a part of everything else in the world and in myself, as I experience it. So if you are seeking binary absolutes, here, I can't give you any.

Love and forgiveness are not the same things. If they were, we wouldn't have applied different terms to them. Yet I think they are intrinsically related to each other as phenomena. Likewise, choice and action are not the same things, yet they, too, are intrinsically related to each other as phenomena. So the question we need to answer is; 'how are they intrinsically related'? And for me, the answers lay in seeing both love and forgiveness, choice and action as a process, expressed: a way of being. A way of being that begins with making the choice to be (loving, forgiving, kind, generous, etc.) and results, eventually, in having become those things both within our own hearts and minds, and outwardly, to others.

I'm thinking we can choose to adopt a state, but that choice to become is not the same as being. Also the state I'm in might influence my choices, but the choices they influence are not the same as the state that influences them. So yes, I'm sure you must be of the opinion that forgiveness is in no way love, though it might be a cause or consequence of love.

Exactly.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Which is exactly what the accuser of the brethren wants. It keeps you out of the battle.....focused on yourself and your own "failings". He is telling you it's a big deal, so you want to fix it. It's not something you can fix...not through any self effort. But, the LORD can and will once you see what's going on here.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that because I seek to know what forgiveness is, I'm a wounded spiritual soldier? Are you saying that since I think trying to know God's will about how to forgive is a big deal, I'm no good at spiritual warfare? Are you saying I'm not trusting God to give me the wisdom to know his marching orders regarding forgiving?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

I am not an 'absolutist'. I do not experience life in terms of binary absolutes that are 'all this' or 'all that'. Everything is a part of everything else in the world and in myself, as I experience it. So if you are seeking binary absolutes, here, I can't give you any.

Love and forgiveness are not the same things. If they were, we wouldn't have applied different terms to them. Yet I think they are intrinsically related to each other as phenomena. Likewise, choice and action are not the same things, yet they, too, are intrinsically related to each other as phenomena. So the question we need to answer is; 'how are they intrinsically related'? And for me, the answers lay in seeing both love and forgiveness, choice and action as a process, expressed: a way of being. A way of being that begins with making the choice to be (loving, forgiving, kind, generous, etc.) and results, eventually, in having become those things both within our own hearts and minds, and outwardly, to others.

Exactly.

I'm enjoying our discussion a great deal. I must say that I find it fascinating that when I engage in dialogues like this with many others, they say things like, "Love is a verb," and "Love is not what you feel; it's what you do." After asking them to explain why they believe this to be true, they often begin contradicting themselves, and even give up trying to explain and leave the questions unanswered.

But not you! Your position is more consistent, and so more easily defended. It is something to be admired, and something to be seriously considered as probably true.

So I hope you will allow me to consider it further. If not, then I thank you for your time and attention. If so, then I thank you for your patience and hope you will benefit from the discussion somehow too.

 

[PureX]

I'm enjoying our discussion a great deal. I must say that I find it fascinating that when I engage in dialogues like this with many others, they say things like, "Love is a verb," and "Love is not what you feel; it's what you do." After asking them to explain why they believe this to be true, they often begin contradicting themselves, and even give up trying to explain and leave the questions unanswered.

Yes, such is the human condition. For some more than for others. But ultimately for us all.

The human brain perceives and understands via the mechanism of 'compare and contrast'. Granted, this happens very quickly and on multiple 'levels' simultaneously until some mental consensus is achieved, but the mechanism itself is falsely divisive. For it to work, we have to perceive the world around us in 'parts' that we can then compare and contrast with all the other 'parts'. And that causes us no end of problems, because existence is not divided. It is one singular, holistic event, taking place. Everything is connected to everything else. There are no "parts".

So we will inevitably be misled by our own thought process relative to the actuality of existence. And if we do not understand this, we will likely be even more misled by it. And so we are, some more than others.

But not you! Your position is more consistent, and so more easily defended. It is something to be admired, and something to be seriously considered as probably true.

Well, I'm sure I am being misled by my own mind just as we all are. But I am aware of this, and I have accepted it, and that helps me allow reason to tell me when I'm being unreasonable. And intuition to tell me when I should be unreasonable. And so on. As I stated before, we do have a number of useful tools, even if we are ultimately doomed to bias and misunderstanding by the functional nature of our own brains.

So I hope you will allow me to consider it further. If not, then I thank you for your time and attention. If so, then I thank you for your patience and hope you will benefit from the discussion somehow too.

I also appreciate this dialogue. As I am dealing with a bit of a forgiveness issue, myself. And it reminds me of how easily it can be "understood" intellectually, and yet how difficult it can sometimes be to implement that understanding.

Such is the human condition, I guess.

 

[intojoy]

Thanks for those insightful words, but did you answer the question? If you did, please forgive me for not comprehending.

“And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And parting his garments among them, they cast lots.”
**Luke‬ *23:34‬ *ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/luk.23.34.asv

 

[glorydaz]

Then I thank God you are here to open my eyes to my self-deception, which is something I try to be diligent to do. I take to heart the words of Socrates, the father of philosophy:

"I have long been wondering at my own wisdom. I cannot trust myself, and I think that I ought to stop and ask myself, 'What am I saying?' For there is nothing worse than self-deception, when the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It is quite terrible!"

I said self effort....nothing about self-deception. Satan, the accuser of the brethren, uses our doubts and our worries, that we're not doing what we think we SHOULD BE DOING, as fiery darts against us.

The deceiver is never at home or with the believer. He is outside of Christ while we are hid with Christ in God. Col. 3:3KJV

Satan may launch those fiery darts, but you certainly don't have to reach out and catch them.

I hear what you are saying about God not requiring me to meet the condition of forgiving others before he continues to forgive me. But when I hear Jesus words, I wonder if what you say is true:

"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

(Matthew 6:15)

Please tell me: What do your eyes see when they read these words?

I see the LAW with it's conditions, which our Lord preached while He walked this earth in the flesh. When He finished His work on the cross, He rose from the dead, and it's the RISEN LORD who revealed the Gift of Salvation to the Apostle Paul. The only "condition", and how we can access the Grace of God and forgiveness of sins is that we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

You're the worst one. Never willing to suffer any insults, always seeking to better yourself.

The difference between me and the heretics is I adhere to sound doctrine.
Which is why I'm not a convenient enemy for you to blast off on like Meshak.

Obviously you don't forgive anyone including me. Which makes it so much the more delightful.

Why would those who are not offended by your insults need to forgive you anything?

We simply recognize what you are and comment on it occasionally. You're self absorbed...delight yourself in that if it floats your boat. :carryon:

 

[glorydaz]

Is everyone pretty much in agreement that forgiving is never loving and forgiveness cannot possibly be love?

Nope.

Glad you said so! So please explain why you believe forgiveness is a kind of love.

1. Forgiving is never loving. FALSE
2. Forgiveness cannot possibly be love. FALSE
3. Forgiveness is a kind of love. FALSE


Don't you have any more choices? :think:

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that because I seek to know what forgiveness is, I'm a wounded spiritual soldier?

No, I'm saying the forgiveness you hope to find in your heart will come in God's good time. Trust Him to do the work in you.

Are you saying that since I think trying to know God's will about how to forgive is a big deal, I'm no good at spiritual warfare?

No, I just think you're new to it. Recognizing the enemy's ways takes time.

Are you saying I'm not trusting God to give me the wisdom to know his marching orders regarding forgiving?

There are no "marching orders" regarding heart changes. All heart changes must be performed by God. It's a part of the operation of God....done to us by HIM. Col. 2:11-12KJV

Any hard feelings you have will be put off with the old man if you don't keep a death grip on them thinking you must do what only God can.

So no, I'm trying to tell you how you can experience forgiveness by surrendering to the Potter's hand. Trust Him to do what you can't do. Be confident that He which began a good work in you WILL PERFORM IT. You answer is right here.....

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that because I seek to know what forgiveness is, I'm a wounded spiritual soldier? Are you saying that since I think trying to know God's will about how to forgive is a big deal, I'm no good at spiritual warfare? Are you saying I'm not trusting God to give me the wisdom to know his marching orders regarding forgiving?

The Socratic method can help folks sharpen their analytical and critical reading skills and begin to understand the contingent nature of much reasoning. But the limitations of the method as usually employed—its over-reliance on excerpts here and there, the tendency of many of its purveyors to give short shrift to weightier issues, its fostering of passivity on the part of those not involved in the dialogue, and its privileging of the proponent of the method as the sage on the stage—are serious impediments. Moreover, by their spending a few years of deep study of Scripture, students of the same reap decreasing returns from this pedagogical method; the ball cannot stay hidden forever. :AMR:

So rather than continue with this tactic why not lay out your own views succinctly and see where the discussion goes? Perhaps you might start here and also synthesize what you have gathered from the good posts in this thread if you need some talking points. Just sayin'.

AMR

 

[intojoy]

Why would those who are not offended by your insults need to forgive you anything?



We simply recognize what you are and comment on it occasionally. You're self absorbed...delight yourself in that if it floats your boat. :carryon:

The first level of denial

 

[patrick jane]

The first level of denial

It's classic, she gets a few pieces of information she thinks to be true, and she puts blinders on and runs full speed in the wrong direction, it's funny to watch

 

[glorydaz]

The first level of denial

It's classic, she gets a few pieces of information she thinks to be true, and she puts blinders on and runs full speed in the wrong direction, it's funny to watch

No talking during nap time, boys. Grab your binkies and your blankies and go to sleep.

 

[intojoy]

No talking during nap time, boys. Grab your binkies and your blankies and go to sleep.

Ok buddie nite nite

 

[intojoy]

Can you tuck us in?

 

[Eric h]

I think giving up the right to throw a punch is much more than a feeling. It's something I do. So does that mean forgiveness is more than a feeling, too?

In some circumstances, forgiveness seems a negative force, we give up our right to get even.

Then forgiveness is a prerequisite for love, I think you must mean.

I think you give up your right to feel anger, blame, fear worry and hate. And in the absence of these feelings, you can strive towards a peace, that is beyond our understanding, I love this verse..



Philippians 4

New International Version

Final Exhortations

4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

 

[Psalmist]

Hi psalmist. That's encouraging. Please describe in what way you forgave. I mean, if someone asks, "What's forgiveness?" and you reply, "It's forgiving," I think the question remains unanswered. Don't you?

Adultery. The Mrs and a friend of ours, it happened early on (two years) in our marriage. After a discussion (no threats made) I sincerely forgave them both. In a world filled with hate, sometimes forgiveness is the best thing and then forget it. End of story.
Mrs Psalmist and are very happily married at 52 years and counting.​

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

I am not an 'absolutist'. I do not experience life in terms of binary absolutes that are 'all this' or 'all that'. Everything is a part of everything else in the world and in myself, as I experience it. So if you are seeking binary absolutes, here, I can't give you any.

Love and forgiveness are not the same things. If they were, we wouldn't have applied different terms to them. Yet I think they are intrinsically related to each other as phenomena. Likewise, choice and action are not the same things, yet they, too, are intrinsically related to each other as phenomena. So the question we need to answer is; 'how are they intrinsically related'? And for me, the answers lay in seeing both love and forgiveness, choice and action as a process, expressed: a way of being. A way of being that begins with making the choice to be (loving, forgiving, kind, generous, etc.) and results, eventually, in having become those things both within our own hearts and minds, and outwardly, to others.
Exactly.

So let's continue the investigation: You hold the consistent position that love is compassion, which chooses to act, and one such action is to forgive. Forgiveness, being an effect of love is not itself love. It is ceasing to feel anger or resentment. So one would never be correct to say love is forgiveness, though one would be correct in saying love chooses to forgive.

I suppose, then you would concur with this: It would never be accurate to say love is patient, love is kind, love is not being envious, love is not being proud, love is not easily angered, love is not keeping a record of wrongs. For these traits describe the effects of love (such as forgiveness) but not the compassion that causes these effects.

Does this ring true so far?

 

[Spockrates]

“And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And parting his garments among them, they cast lots.”
**Luke‬ *23:34‬ *ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/luk.23.34.asv

Thanks, Intojoy. I suppose if I were to ask, "Why, Jesus? Why forgive the soldiers who so brutally torture you?" his answer would be, "Because they don't know what they do is wrong." Don't you?

 

[Spockrates]

I said self effort....nothing about self-deception. Satan, the accuser of the brethren, uses our doubts and our worries, that we're not doing what we think we SHOULD BE DOING, as fiery darts against us.



The deceiver is never at home or with the believer. He is outside of Christ while we are hid with Christ in God. Col. 3:3KJV



Satan may launch those fiery darts, but you certainly don't have to reach out and catch them.

But if one believes she must rely on self effort, then isn't such belief a deception? As PureX says, an action cannot be separated from the thought, which causes it.

see the LAW with it's conditions, which our Lord preached while He walked this earth in the flesh. When He finished His work on the cross, He rose from the dead, and it's the RISEN LORD who revealed the Gift of Salvation to the Apostle Paul. The only "condition", and how we can access the Grace of God and forgiveness of sins is that we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I see. So the requirement to forgive does not apply to me. Are there any actions that a Christian must take, or is every command of Christ optional?