What is forgiveness?

[Spockrates]

1. Forgiving is never loving. FALSE

2. Forgiveness cannot possibly be love. FALSE

3. Forgiveness is a kind of love. FALSE





Don't you have any more choices? :think:

Is there a typo? If (2) is false then forgiveness is love. If (3) is false then forgiveness isn't love. I don't see how this cannot be self-contradictory, and a contradiction is never true, I think. How about you?

 

[Spockrates]

No, I'm saying the forgiveness you hope to find in your heart will come in God's good time. Trust Him to do the work in you.









No, I just think you're new to it. Recognizing the enemy's ways takes time.









There are no "marching orders" regarding heart changes. All heart changes must be performed by God. It's a part of the operation of God....done to us by HIM. Col. 2:11-12KJV



Any hard feelings you have will be put off with the old man if you don't keep a death grip on them thinking you must do what only God can.



So no, I'm trying to tell you how you can experience forgiveness by surrendering to the Potter's hand. Trust Him to do what you can't do. Be confident that He which began a good work in you WILL PERFORM IT. You answer is right here.....

Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

I think you are misjudging me. Rather than jump to conclusions about my spiritual state and experience, why not take a moment to get to know me, first?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

The Socratic method can help folks sharpen their analytical and critical reading skills and begin to understand the contingent nature of much reasoning. But the limitations of the method as usually employed—its over-reliance on excerpts here and there,

Isn't that a purpose of a discussion forum--ask people in the know what you yourself don't know?

the tendency of many of its purveyors to give short shrift to weightier issues,

Not sure I understand. Are you saying forgiveness is not a weighty issue?

its fostering of passivity on the part of those not involved in the dialogue,

Yes, I agree. Heated debates do attract more attention than thoughtful discussions. But such arguments aren't for me.

and its privileging of the proponent of the method as the sage on the stage—are serious impediments.

I suppose you mean the ones answering the questions get all my attention. That's true, but why is that a bad thing?

Moreover, by their spending a few years of deep study of Scripture, students of the same reap decreasing returns from this pedagogical method; the ball cannot stay hidden forever. :AMR:

Not sure how studying scripture results in diminishing returns. Please explain.

So rather than continue with this tactic why not lay out your own views succinctly and see where the discussion goes? Perhaps you might start here and also synthesize what you have gathered from the good posts in this thread if you need some talking points. Just sayin'.

AMR

Well, I really don't have the time to get involved in another discussion thread, but I appreciate the offer.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

In some circumstances, forgiveness seems a negative force, we give up our right to get even.







I think you give up your right to feel anger, blame, fear worry and hate. And in the absence of these feelings, you can strive towards a peace, that is beyond our understanding, I love this verse..







Philippians 4



New International Version



Final Exhortations



4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.



8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

Yeah, I like that passage, too. I think forgiveness is noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent and praiseworthy. I think you agree it's worth thinking about and trying to understand.

 

[Spockrates]

Adultery. The Mrs and a friend of ours, it happened early on (two years) in our marriage. After a discussion (no threats made) I sincerely forgave them both. In a world filled with hate, sometimes forgiveness is the best thing and then forget it. End of story.

Mrs Psalmist and are very happily married at 52 years and counting.​

Would you say that forgiveness is trusting someone again?

 

[PureX]

So let's continue the investigation: You hold the consistent position that love is compassion, which chooses to act, and one such action is to forgive. Forgiveness, being an effect of love is not itself love. It is ceasing to feel anger or resentment. So one would never be correct to say love is forgiveness, though one would be correct in saying love chooses to forgive.

I suppose, then you would concur with this: It would never be accurate to say love is patient, love is kind, love is not being envious, love is not being proud, love is not easily angered, love is not keeping a record of wrongs. For these traits describe the effects of love (such as forgiveness) but not the compassion that causes these effects.

Does this ring true so far?

I think love is more than compassion. I think it's also respect for the individuality and autonomy of the beloved, and a genuine concern for their welfare and well-being. Many Christians claim that they love their fellow humans when they judge them and tell them they are condemned to hell. And I believe they do love them and fear for their well-being. But unfortunately, they are almost completely lacking in respect for the other persons individuality and autonomy. So that their love for others is only 'half-baked'. And therefor not particularly believable, or effecting, to others.

I believe that forgiveness is a means of repairing our damaged capacity and ability to love. It's a means of dispelling the anger and fear and resentment that chokes off our desire and ability to love others freely and effectively. And that therefor harms ourselves and often those we would otherwise want to love and trust.

As an example: there are many posters here on TOL that HATE president Obama. Even though they have never met the man, and never had any personal interaction with him, and know very little about what he thinks or does in his life, they have convinced themselves that he is to blame for a whole host of terrible actions that have harmed them, personally, and are harming others. Their desire and ability to love their fellow man, as Christians, as we are admonished by Christ to do, has somehow been severely damaged.

They need to forgive president Obama for whatever it is they imagine that he has done to them, so as to begin repairing their ability to love their fellow human beings appropriately and sincerely. And that forgiveness involves a process that will have them looking deep within themselves, to see how they have in fact projected so much evil onto someone who is essentially a stranger to them. And they will need to investigate why they have done this. Because part of the process of forgiveness involves untangling that knot of blame, and determining what of it belongs to us, and what of it does not. And this quest will begin to change them. And hopefully to heal them. So that eventually they will be able to feel compassion for president Obama even though they may not always agree with him (who do we ever always agree with?). And respect him for his uniqueness and respect his autonomy as a fellow human of equal stature in the eyes of God.

Or; they will continue to wallow in irrational rage and resentment based on blind projections and here-say from his political enemies. Magnifying their ignorance and hatred with their own. All the while proclaiming themselves to be Christians.

Forgiveness is a choice. And it's often a difficult choice because it means WE HAVE TO CHANGE.

 

[bybee]

I think love is more than compassion. I think it's also respect for the individuality and autonomy of the beloved, and a genuine concern for their welfare and well-being. Many Christians claim that they love their fellow humans when they judge them and tell them they are condemned to hell. And I believe they do love them and fear for their well-being. But unfortunately, they are almost completely lacking in respect for the other persons individuality and autonomy. So that their love for others is only 'half-baked'. And therefor not particularly believable, or effecting, to others.

I believe that forgiveness is a means of repairing our damaged capacity and ability to love. It's a means of dispelling the anger and fear and resentment that chokes off our desire and ability to love others freely and effectively. And that therefor harms ourselves and often those we would otherwise want to love and trust.

As an example: there are many posters here on TOL that HATE president Obama. Even though they have never met the man, and never had any personal interaction with him, and know very little about what he thinks or does in his life, they have convinced themselves that he is to blame for a whole host of terrible actions that have harmed them, personally, and are harming others. Their desire and ability to love their fellow man, as Christians, as we are admonished by Christ to do, has somehow been severely damaged.

They need to forgive president Obama for whatever it is they imagine that he has done to them, so as to begin repairing their ability to love their fellow human beings appropriately and sincerely. And that forgiveness involves a process that will have them looking deep within themselves, to see how they have in fact projected so much evil onto someone who is essentially a stranger to them. And they will need to investigate why they have done this. Because part of the process of forgiveness involves untangling that knot of blame, and determining what of it belongs to us, and what of it does not. And this quest will begin to change them. And hopefully to heal them. So that eventually they will be able to feel compassion for president Obama even though they may not always agree with him (who do we ever always agree with?). And respect him for his uniqueness and respect his autonomy as a fellow human of equal stature in the eyes of God.

Or; they will continue to wallow in irrational rage and resentment based on blind projections and here-say from his political enemies. Magnifying their ignorance and hatred with their own. All the while proclaiming themselves to be Christians.

Forgiveness is a choice. And it's often a difficult choice because it means WE HAVE TO CHANGE.

I'm thinking of the Harpies on "The View". They are a very typical example of Liberals holding on to their hatred and spewing venom at every opportunity. Do you consider it likely that any one of them might turn the other cheek and forgive President Bush?

 

[PureX]

I'm thinking of the Harpies on "The View".

Why?

They are a very typical example of Liberals holding on to their hatred and spewing venom at every opportunity.

Are they? Or are they emblematic of how you prefer to think of "liberals"?

Do you consider it likely that any one of them might turn the other cheek and forgive President Bush?

I don't consider what they are likely to do or not do. In fact, I don't think about them at all.

 

[Psalmist]

Would you say that forgiveness is trusting someone again?

Yes, for me and Mrs Psalmist it is.

Outside the family circle I think you learn to trust others eventually.
​

 

[PureX]

Yes, for me and Mrs Psalmist it is.

Outside the family circle I think you learn to trust others eventually.
​

I think forgiveness is often a repairing of our ability and willingness to trust, but not necessarily repairing our trust in the specific person that damaged it.

I don't believe that forgiveness requires, nor specifically intends, that we trust the offender, again. Only that we let go of the fear and resentment that disabled our ability to trust others, in general.

Reason would dictate that some offenders should never be trusted not to offend, again.

Jesus supposedly said, relative to forgiveness, that if someone strikes us on the left cheek, to offer them the right. But I would not. I would take a few steps back and then say, "I forgive you". Because I don't believe forgiveness should invite abuse through an irrational trust.

 

[bybee]

Why?
Are they? Or are they emblematic of how you prefer to think of "liberals"?
I don't consider what they are likely to do or not do. In fact, I don't think about them at all.

Ahhhhh Mr Wonderful!!!

 

[glorydaz]

I think you are misjudging me. Rather than jump to conclusions about my spiritual state and experience, why not take a moment to get to know me, first?

I wasn't jumping to conclusions about your spiritual state.

I said you seem to be new to the idea that satan can use your very striving (which is what you admitted doing for years) to keep you looking to your own efforts for answers. Just trying to help, but if you want to keep trying to figure out what YOU need to do, then you aren't ready to hear what I've been trying to share. So, search away......

 

[Bright Raven]

releasing for a wrong done.

 

[Eric h]

I suppose if I were to ask, "Why, Jesus? Why forgive the soldiers who so brutally torture you?" his answer would be, "Because they don't know what they do is wrong." Don't you?

How else could Jesus love them as he loves himself?

Do these commandments apply under such extreme circumstances?

 

[intojoy]

Thanks, Intojoy. I suppose if I were to ask, "Why, Jesus? Why forgive the soldiers who so brutally torture you?" his answer would be, "Because they don't know what they do is wrong." Don't you?

People ultimately do not know how wrong they are.
Even man at his best standard falls short of the glory of God

 

[PureX]

Ahhhhh Mr Wonderful!!!

Always! :rapture:

 

[Eric h]

I think any time we are not living by the greatest commandments, it just means we are doing something less great.

In theory, this means nothing should get in the way of loving God and our neighbour.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

I think love is more than compassion. I think it's also respect for the individuality and autonomy of the beloved, and a genuine concern for their welfare and well-being. Many Christians claim that they love their fellow humans when they judge them and tell them they are condemned to hell. And I believe they do love them and fear for their well-being. But unfortunately, they are almost completely lacking in respect for the other persons individuality and autonomy. So that their love for others is only 'half-baked'. And therefor not particularly believable, or effecting, to others.

I believe that forgiveness is a means of repairing our damaged capacity and ability to love. It's a means of dispelling the anger and fear and resentment that chokes off our desire and ability to love others freely and effectively. And that therefor harms ourselves and often those we would otherwise want to love and trust.

As an example: there are many posters here on TOL that HATE president Obama. Even though they have never met the man, and never had any personal interaction with him, and know very little about what he thinks or does in his life, they have convinced themselves that he is to blame for a whole host of terrible actions that have harmed them, personally, and are harming others. Their desire and ability to love their fellow man, as Christians, as we are admonished by Christ to do, has somehow been severely damaged.

They need to forgive president Obama for whatever it is they imagine that he has done to them, so as to begin repairing their ability to love their fellow human beings appropriately and sincerely. And that forgiveness involves a process that will have them looking deep within themselves, to see how they have in fact projected so much evil onto someone who is essentially a stranger to them. And they will need to investigate why they have done this. Because part of the process of forgiveness involves untangling that knot of blame, and determining what of it belongs to us, and what of it does not. And this quest will begin to change them. And hopefully to heal them. So that eventually they will be able to feel compassion for president Obama even though they may not always agree with him (who do we ever always agree with?). And respect him for his uniqueness and respect his autonomy as a fellow human of equal stature in the eyes of God.

Or; they will continue to wallow in irrational rage and resentment based on blind projections and here-say from his political enemies. Magnifying their ignorance and hatred with their own. All the while proclaiming themselves to be Christians.

Forgiveness is a choice. And it's often a difficult choice because it means WE HAVE TO CHANGE.

Hope you had a good weekend. Sorry for the delay in responding. I had to manage a modification I uploaded to a couple of online game sites this weekend. It's a hobby of mine.

So I think you might have missed my question when you responded. For I asked:

I suppose, then you would concur with this: It would never be accurate to say love is patient, love is kind, love is not being envious, love is not being proud, love is not easily angered, love is not keeping a record of wrongs. For these traits describe the effects of love (such as forgiveness) but not the compassion that causes these effects. Does this ring true so far?

You didn't appear to ascent or deny that love is patient, kind, humble, calm and not keeping a record of wrongs. But I understand that love is compassion, respect and concern for another's well being.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes, for me and Mrs Psalmist it is.



Outside the family circle I think you learn to trust others eventually.

​

Hope you had a good weekend. So outside the family circle, do you learn to forgive, eventually, since one does not usually trust (and so forgive) non-family members quickly?

 

[Spockrates]

I wasn't jumping to conclusions about your spiritual state.

Forgive me for not replying till now. Busy weekend! And I wasn't offended. Just curious. Please forgive me for getting the wrong idea.

I said you seem to be new to the idea that satan can use your very striving (which is what you admitted doing for years) to keep you looking to your own efforts for answers.

I believe I comprehend.

Just trying to help, but if you want to keep trying to figure out what YOU need to do, then you aren't ready to hear what I've been trying to share. So, search away......

So are you saying you don't need to do anything to forgive? Or are you saying you don't need to figure out what you need to do to forgive, because you already know?