What does God's Holy Law Demand?

[Clete]

You argue about words that do not matter.

It matters a very great deal.

It was Saul's work that caused Israel to reject their King! It was Saul who caused Israel to be cut off! Saul set out to prevent this Jesus abomination from taking hold in Israel and he succeeded. Not that he didn't have plenty of help but the point is that when he claims to have destroyed the church he means it.

 

[God's Truth]

No, you just aren't getting the point.

What did Paul do, that the Twelve couldn't IF Paul's message was the same as the Twelve's?

Where is the need for Paul? There isn't one!

The Twelve where given the Holy Spirit Himself to guide them on their "Great Commission". They chose to stay in Israel and minister, not to the whole world as the great commission instructs, but to "the circumcision" and sent Paul to the whole rest of the world.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Paul taught the same gospel as Jesus and the other apostles.

It was agreed upon that Paul would go to the Gentiles.

 

[Clete]

Paul taught the same gospel as Jesus and the other apostles.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Why would God need Paul if his message was the same as that of the twelve?

It was agreed upon that Paul would go to the Gentiles.

This much you've got right! :up:

The question is, why Paul?

 

[God's Truth]

It matters a very great deal.

It was Saul's work that caused Israel to reject their King!

You are blaming Paul for that?

It was Saul who caused Israel to be cut off!

God cut them off.

The Jews who were faithless were cut off by the time Jesus preached.


Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,

Saul set out to prevent this Jesus abomination from taking hold in Israel and he succeeded.

"This Jesus abomination"?

Not that he didn't have plenty of help but the point is that when he claims to have destroyed the church he means it.

Paul tried to destroy the church and then stopped.

You are so confused.

 

[God's Truth]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Why would God need Paul if his message was the same as that of the twelve?


This much you've got right! :up:

The question is, why Paul?

To show that even the worst of sinners could have mercy.

 

[God's Truth]

Clete, I can show you easily that Paul preached the same gospel that Jesus preached.

Why else do you think Jesus and Paul were killed by the Jews?

 

[Jacob]

What God's Word Jacob, the NT or the Tanach? As a Jew that Jesus was, every time he referred to God's Word, he had the Tanach in mind. I hope you are aware that he never even dreamed the NT would ever arise.

The following scriptures from the Bible refer to the word of God.

1 Samuel 9:27 NASB - 27 As they were going down to the edge of the city, Samuel said to Saul, "Say to the servant that he might go ahead of us and pass on, but you remain standing now, that I may proclaim the word of God to you."

2 Samuel 16:23 NASB - 23 The advice of Ahithophel, which he gave in those days, was as if one inquired of the word of God; so was all the advice of Ahithophel regarded by both David and Absalom.

1 Kings 12:22 NASB - 22 But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

1 Chronicles 17:3 NASB - 3 It came about the same night that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,

Proverbs 30:5 NASB - 5 Every word of God is tested;He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

Matthew 15:6 NASB - 6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Mark 7:13 NASB - 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Luke 3:2 NASB - 2 in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.

Luke 5:1 NASB - 1 Now it happened that while the crowd was pressing around Him and listening to the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennesaret;

Luke 8:11 NASB - "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.

Luke 8:21 NASB - But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

Luke 11:28 NASB - 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

John 10:35 NASB - 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Acts 4:31 NASB - 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

Acts 6:2 NASB - So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.

Acts 6:7 NASB - The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

Acts 8:14 NASB - 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,

Acts 11:1 NASB - 1 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.

Acts 13:5 NASB - When they reached Salamis, they began to proclaim the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews; and they also had John as their helper.

Acts 13:7 NASB - who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:46 NASB - Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

Acts 17:13 NASB - 13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica found out that the word of God had been proclaimed by Paul in Berea also, they came there as well, agitating and stirring up the crowds.

Acts 18:11 NASB - 11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Romans 9:6 NASB - 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

1 Corinthians 14:36 NASB - 36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

2 Corinthians 2:17 NASB - 17 For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

2 Corinthians 4:2 NASB - 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Ephesians 6:17 NASB - 17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Philippians 1:14 NASB - 14 and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear.

Colossians 1:25 NASB - 25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

1 Thessalonians 2:13 NASB - 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

1 Timothy 4:5 NASB - 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

2 Timothy 2:9 NASB - 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.

Titus 2:5 NASB - 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

Hebrews 4:12 NASB - 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Hebrews 6:5 NASB - 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Hebrews 11:3 NASB - 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Hebrews 13:7 NASB - 7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

1 Peter 1:23 NASB - 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 Peter 3:5 NASB - 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

1 John 2:14 NASB - 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Revelation 1:2 NASB - who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Revelation 1:9 NASB - I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 6:9 NASB - 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

Revelation 19:13 NASB - 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 20:4 NASB - 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here are some additional scriptures to keep in mind.

John 5:39 NASB - 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Romans 3:2 NASB - 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Hebrews 5:12 NASB - 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

2 Timothy 3:16 NASB - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Timothy 3:17 NASB - so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
The following verses refer to scripture.

The following scriptures have the word scripture in them.

Mark 12:10 NASB - 10 "Have you not even read this Scripture:'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

Mark 15:28 NASB - 28 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And He was numbered with transgressors."

Luke 4:21 NASB - 21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

John 2:22 NASB - 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

John 7:38 NASB - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

John 7:42 NASB - "Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"

John 10:35 NASB - 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

John 13:18 NASB - 18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'

John 17:12 NASB - 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 19:24 NASB - So they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be"; this was to fulfill the Scripture: "THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS."

John 19:28 NASB - After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty."

John 19:36 NASB - For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."

John 19:37 NASB - And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

John 20:9 NASB - 9 For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

Acts 1:16 NASB - 16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

Acts 8:32 NASB - Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:"HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.

Acts 8:35 NASB - Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.

Romans 4:3 NASB - 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Romans 9:17 NASB - 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Romans 10:11 NASB - 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Romans 11:2 NASB - 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Galatians 3:8 NASB - The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Galatians 3:22 NASB - But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Galatians 4:30 NASB - 30 But what does the Scripture say?"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

1 Timothy 4:13 NASB - 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

1 Timothy 5:18 NASB - 18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

2 Timothy 3:16 NASB - 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

James 2:8 NASB - If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

James 2:23 NASB - and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

James 4:5 NASB - 5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?

1 Peter 2:6 NASB - 6 For this is contained in Scripture:"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

2 Peter 1:20 NASB - 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

These refer to the scriptures.

Matthew 21:42 NASB - 42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

Matthew 22:29 NASB - 29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Matthew 26:54 NASB - "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

Matthew 26:56 NASB - "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.

Mark 12:24 NASB - 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?

Mark 14:49 NASB - 49 "Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures."

Luke 24:27 NASB - Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24:32 NASB - They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?"

Luke 24:45 NASB - Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

John 5:39 NASB - 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Acts 17:2 NASB - And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 17:11 NASB - Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Acts 18:24 NASB - Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures.

Acts 18:28 NASB - for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Romans 1:2 NASB - 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

Romans 15:4 NASB - 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Romans 16:26 NASB - 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

1 Corinthians 15:3 NASB - For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1 Corinthians 15:4 NASB - and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

2 Peter 3:16 NASB - 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

The TaNaKh is the Torah - Law, the Nevi'im - Prophets, and the Kethuvim - Writings.

See: The TaNaKh - English Book Names

 

[Jacob]

I don't need nor did I ask for you encouragement, nor did I ask whether we should take God at His word. Never even suggested that we shouldn't. My question was on a completely different topic. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOPIC, Jacob! It IS NOT a sufficient answer for me, no matter what you believe.,


I simply have no evidence that you even understood what I was asking, never mind that you spent any time at all thinking about it.


It's not "my method" of thinking its just thinking and I already addressed this. I do not care if you ever agree with me, I simply want you to at least be able to see what I'm saying and why I'm saying it, but you refuse! You're afraid or stupid or both.


And yet you refuse to even acknowledge the question! Who are you lying too, me or yourself?


How do you know that you can trust him, Jacob?

HOW DO YOU KNOW?

Don't answer! I no longer care what you think because you don't think at all. You think that thinking is somehow a betrayal of God.


You answer questions I never asked. I know I'm not stupid and I know that my questions were clear and then further clarified. The problem isn't me. The problem is that you are either scared or you are stupid. I can't fix either of those things and won't make any attempt to do so. That's on you.


I know for a fact that you are wrong. These issues are not matters of opinion, Jacob. You cannot realize that because you have a religious aversion to thinking. For you it isn't about knowing, its about blindly believing. The thing that makes it impossible for you to correct your error is that you think that the later is equivalent to the former. David Koresh thought the exact same thing and taught his followers from the exact same bible that you claim to believe and rest your faith upon. What made him wrong and you right? You can have no answer.


Do you know how many innocent lives have been slaughtered on the alter of "what God's word says"? People do have wrong doctrine, Jacob! And every single one of them is as convinced as you are that they derive their doctrine for the word of God. And what's more is that they believe that for the EXACT SAME reasons that you do. That reason being that they reject as evil any thought process that even has the potential of leading them away from the doctrine that they already believe.


You and David Koresh and Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn and Tsvi Sadan all say the exact same thing.

Some or all of you are wrong! How would you ever figure out which?

Resting in Him,
Clete

I don't understand why you are speaking of me and to me in such a manner. You say I should not encourage you but you cut into me.

The word of God is for you to understand. It is not to be questioned or to think what if it said something different. We are not to say something is wrong inherently and not because God says it is wrong. If God says something is wrong it is wrong. If you have your own standard, it is not God's standard. If you believe some things are wrong inherently so God says they are wrong, well God already knows they are wrong but when God speaks that they are wrong you know too. Your own wisdom about what is wrong inherently may fail you. You think a thing must be wrong and perhaps it is. But to say it is wrong because you think it is wrong is different than do say it is wrong because God says it is. If God says something is wrong you will never fail in saying, or when you say, that it is wrong.

See verses 14-16.

Romans 2:1-29 NASB - 1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. 17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written. 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[patrick jane]

Great conversation Jake -

 

[Clete]

You are blaming Paul for that?

Paul said that he destroyed the church, not me! I just believe what he said is true.

God cut them off.

The Jews who were faithless were cut off by the time Jesus preached.

God cut them off when they (Israel) officially rejected Jesus as their Messiah. (Note that Stephen saw Christ standing, a common biblical idiom implying impending judgment.) Paul spends the whole of Acts 9 explaining why God was justified in doing so.

"This Jesus abomination"?

Do you doubt that this was Saul's attitude toward Jesus and His followers prior to his conversion?

Paul tried to destroy the church and then stopped.

That's your doctrine speaking. The bible does not teach that.

You are so confused.

On the contrary. I know precisely what I believe and why I believe it. I further know that it is the only doctrinal system that actually does take God at His Word. I have spent my entire adult life (and then some) studying dozens of different doctrinal systems. From Calvinism to Anabaptist to Name It and Claim it/Holy Ghost Revival/Charismatic Chaos and everything inbetween. Nothing comes close to being as biblical faithful, intellectually honest and rationally sound as what I currently believe. When/if something comes along that is superior, I'll switch, not before.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God's Truth]

You are blaming Paul for that?

Paul said that he destroyed the church, not me! I just believe what he said is true.



God cut them off when they (Israel) officially rejected Jesus as their Messiah. (Note that Stephen saw Christ standing, a common biblical idiom implying impending judgment.) Paul spends the whole of Acts 9 explaining why God was justified in doing so.


Do you doubt that this was Saul's attitude toward Jesus and His followers prior to his conversion?


That's your doctrine speaking. The bible does not teach that.


On the contrary. I know precisely what I believe and why I believe it. I further know that it is the only doctrinal system that actually does take God at His Word. I have spent my entire adult life (and then some) studying dozens of different doctrinal systems. From Calvinism to Anabaptist to Name It and Claim it/Holy Ghost Revival/Charismatic Chaos and everything inbetween. Nothing comes close to being as biblical faithful, intellectually honest and rationally sound as what I currently believe. When/if something comes along that is superior, I'll switch, not before.


Resting in Him,
Clete

You are greatly confused and you do not believe what is plainly written.

As for all your studying...studying it not what gives the understanding. In all your studying you still do not now what gives understanding.

 

[Clete]

I don't understand why you are speaking of me and to me in such a manner. You say I should not encourage you but you cut into me.

You do not know me, you do not know anything about what I believe or why I believe it and you demonstrate either an unwillingness or inability to do so. Your encouragement is therefore meaningless. And I cut into you because you waste my time, seemingly on purpose, no matter how hard I try to engage you, you refuse. One wonders why you bother showing up on a discussion forum if you won't engage in two way conversations.

The word of God is for you to understand. It is not to be questioned or to think what if it said something different. We are not to say something is wrong inherently and not because God says it is wrong.

Why not?

Where in the bible does it teach that?

Which passage of scripture did you get that doctrine from?

Was it this one...

Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.

or perhaps this one...

Malachi 3:10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this,” Says the Lord of hosts, “If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.

No? Neither of those! Which then? Which passage teaches us that we are not to ask questions to test the veracity of what we believe?

If God says something is wrong it is wrong.

I never suggested otherwise!

Look, if God says something is immoral then you can take it to the bank that God is not wrong and that it is in fact immoral. My only point is that it isn't immoral BECAUSE God said it. It isn't the act of God speaking it that makes it wrong. God saying it merely proves it to be so. It was moral or immoral before God said it, which is why God said it! In other words, we know that what God says is good because God is good! Otherwise it is meaningless to even say that God is good!

If you have your own standard, it is not God's standard.

What in the world are you talking about?

I don't have my own standard you silly, ridiculous, nincompoop!

Something you'd have figured out had you participated in the conversation instead of being a scared little girl, afraid to think other people's thoughts after them for fear that your whole worldview might come crashing down around your head.

If you believe some things are wrong inherently so God says they are wrong, well God already knows they are wrong but when God speaks that they are wrong you know too.

Well no duh, Captain Obvious!

Your own wisdom about what is wrong inherently may fail you. You think a thing must be wrong and perhaps it is. But to say it is wrong because you think it is wrong is different than to say it is wrong because God says it is. If God says something is wrong you will never fail in saying, or when you say, that it is wrong.

Once again, way to go stating the completely obvious! How completely dull and boring.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jacob]

You do not know me, you do not know anything about what I believe or why I believe it and you demonstrate either an unwillingness or inability to do so. Your encouragement is therefore meaningless. And I cut into you because you waste my time, seemingly on purpose, no matter how hard I try to engage you, you refuse. One wonders why you bother showing up on a discussion forum if you won't engage in two way conversations.


Why not?

Where in the bible does it teach that?

Which passage of scripture did you get that doctrine from?

Was it this one...

Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.

or perhaps this one...

Malachi 3:10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this,” Says the Lord of hosts, “If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.

No? Neither of those! Which then? Which passage teaches us that we are not to ask questions to test the veracity of what we believe?


I never suggested otherwise!

Look, if God says something is immoral then you can take it to the bank that God is not wrong and that it is in fact immoral. My only point is that it isn't immoral BECAUSE God said it. It isn't the act of God speaking it that makes it wrong. God saying it merely proves it to be so. It was moral or immoral before God said it, which is why God said it! In other words, we know that what God says is good because God is good! Otherwise it is meaningless to even say that God is good!


What in the world are you talking about?

I don't have my own standard you silly, ridiculous, nincompoop!

Something you'd have figured out had you participated in the conversation instead of being a scared little girl, afraid to think other people's thoughts after them for fear that your whole worldview might come crashing down around your head.


Well no duh, Captain Obvious!


Once again, way to go stating the completely obvious! How completely dull and boring.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I believe I have given you answers that are true from the Bible.

Regarding your own view I am referring to when a person decides something is inherently wrong, which is what you brought up. That is, they decide this on their own without God. It is God who says what is right and what is wrong.

As for the way you are treating me please don't treat me this way any longer.

Shalom.

 

[Clete]

You are greatly confused and you do not believe what is plainly written.

Why do people insist on saying such things?

All of our posts are still here! Everyone can read the whole conversation! It's you who don't believe what Paul claimed he did to the church! That was just like one or two posts ago!

As for all your studying...studying it not what gives the understanding. In all your studying you still do not now what gives understanding.

You're a fool. You have no basis upon which to make such a accusation except that you happen to disagree with my doctrine. You don't know me or anything about what I've studied, what I've learned or how I learned it. You know next to nothing at all. Wasn't it you who quoted Matthew 7:2 to me? You should read the rest of the chapter and see what God says about hypocrites, which is what the whole passage is about, by the way.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[jamie]

Why would God need Paul if his message was the same as that of the twelve?

God is the God of the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The Abrahamic covenant provided for Gentiles. Paul understood that from his training in Arabia.

Also, as a Roman citizen Paul could travel freely throughout the empire and he had been brought up in a great Gentile city. Paul knew Gentiles like none of the other apostles did.

 

[Clete]

I believe I have given you answers that are true from the Bible.

All of our posts are still here, Jacob. I don't know who you're trying to convince.

Regarding your own view I am referring to when a person decides something is inherently wrong, which is what you brought up.

No, that isn't what I brought up.

That is, they decide this on their own without God. It is God who says what is right and what is wrong.

You act as if right and wrong cannot be figured out. It can.

Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to MY gospel.​

Don't glance over those passages! Read them! They will prove the point I've been trying to make and that you won't allow your mind to hear.

As for the way you are treating me please don't treat me this way any longer.

Shalom.

I've not said a word that I don't believe is the truth. I will allow the offense of the truth to work it's ministry.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

God is the God of the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The Abrahamic covenant provided for Gentiles. Paul understood that from his training in Arabia.

Also, as a Roman citizen Paul could travel freely throughout the empire and he had been brought up in a great Gentile city. Paul knew Gentiles like none of the other apostles did.

Are you seriously suggesting that citizenship papers or the lack thereof would have been a hindrance to the Holy Spirit's ministry through the Twelve Apostles such that it was necessary to scrap the twelve, leave them in Israel and take on a thirteenth apostle that was a Roman citizen? Is that really what you believe?

Why do you suppose that God didn't think that through enough to have converted Saul to Paul during Jesus' Earthly ministry or if not Saul, why not any one of hundreds of other Jews in Israel that were Romans citizens? Jesus could have converted twelve Jews who were all Roman citizens had He needed Romans citizens. But He didn't - OOPS!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jacob]

All of our posts are still here, Jacob. I don't know who you're trying to convince.


No, that isn't what I brought up.


You act as if right and wrong cannot be figured out. It can.

Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to MY gospel.​

Don't glance over those passages! Read them! They will prove the point I've been trying to make and that you won't allow your mind to hear.


I've not said a word that I don't believe is the truth. I will allow the offense of the truth to work it's ministry.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I know our posts are here. I don't know why you are thinking I am trying to convince anyone. You brought up what is inherently wrong and set it against something being wrong because God says it is. I quoted the second chapter of Romans. If your point is about your thoughts, simply don't discredit God's word.

 

[Clete]

I know our posts are here. I don't know why you are thinking I am trying to convince anyone. You brought up what is inherently wrong and set it against something being wrong because God says it is. I quoted the second chapter of Romans. If your point is about your thoughts, simply don't discredit God's word.

No one is discrediting God's word, Jacob! I'm just asking a thought provoking question! A question that does not contradict, either directly or by implication, anything stated in Romans 2 or any other biblical passage! I am not attempting to debate WHETHER the bible is true, I'm trying to show you HOW you can KNOW that it is true and by the same token know whether your doctrine is true as well. Stating an allegiance to the bible doesn't cut it, even if you're sincere because hundreds and even thousands of false teachers sincerely believed and would/will argue till their face turned blue that their doctrine was/is biblical. And they'd do it with passion and eloquent words such that you or I couldn't muster if our lives depended on it.

David Koresh, the former leader of the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX has been dead for years. He claimed to be the second coming of Christ and would make long winded arguments FROM THE BIBLE to support his claims. Do you realize that there are surviving members of his cult that still believe to this day that he was/is the second coming of Christ and expect that he will return again? Do you know that they are wrong? I mean really know it? If so, how do you know that they are wrong? What makes your reading of the scripture superior to theirs? And it is superior, by the way. Whether you ever agree with me about the law and right vs. wrong, just the mere fact that you reject Koresh as the Messiah is proof enough that your understanding of scripture is in fact superior to that of the Davidians, but is that a lucky accident or is there a way we can actually know good theology, good Christian philosophy from bad? Can we KNOW right from wrong; truth from error? If so, how so? And don't say by reading the bible because that's what the Davidians did and look where it got them. Reading God's word is obviously part of it, but is not the whole picture.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jacob]

No one is discrediting God's word, Jacob! I'm just asking a thought provoking question! A question that does not contradict, either directly or by implication, anything stated in Romans 2 or any other biblical passage! I am not attempting to debate WHETHER the bible is true, I'm trying to show you HOW you can KNOW that it is true and by the same token know whether your doctrine is true as well. Stating an allegiance to the bible doesn't cut it, even if you're sincere because hundreds and even thousands of false teachers sincerely believed and would/will argue till their face turned blue that their doctrine was/is biblical. And they'd do it with passion and eloquent words such that you or I couldn't muster if our lives depended on it.

David Koresh, the former leader of the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX has been dead for years. He claimed to be the second coming of Christ and would make long winded arguments FROM THE BIBLE to support his claims. Do you realize that there are surviving members of his cult that still believe to this day that he was/is the second coming of Christ and expect that he will return again? Do you know that they are wrong? I mean really know it? If so, how do you know that they are wrong? What makes your reading of the scripture superior to theirs? And it is superior, by the way. Whether you ever agree with me about the law and right vs. wrong, just the mere fact that you reject Koresh as the Messiah is proof enough that your understanding of scripture is in fact superior to that of the Davidians, but is that a lucky accident or is there a way we can actually know good theology, good Christian philosophy from bad? Can we KNOW right from wrong; truth from error? If so, how so? And don't say by reading the bible because that's what the Davidians did and look where it got them. Reading God's word is obviously part of it, but is not the whole picture.

Resting in Him,
Clete

If you have not read the Bible you are lacking in much if you want to explain God's word to people or teach.

You asked if something is right or wrong because God says so. The answer is yes. You gave the alternative that it is wrong because it is inherently wrong. I do not think you are recognizing what you have done and how I have responded.

The Bible is the word of God. Have you heard of Bible study, Bibliology, Biblical Theology, Christian Theology, or Systematic Theology? I would think these would all come first before anyone attempts to justify Christian philosophy.

As a student of God's word, the Bible, beginning with the Torah and the TaNaKh and including the New Testament scriptures, I know that philosophy is empty. I have no disagreement with being able to ask questions of the text in Bible study or even Hermeneutics, the Art and Science of Biblical Interpretation, to include a study of interpretation whether in Judaism or Christianity, even if someone says the questions they are asking of God or a Christian teacher, pastor, or apologist are philosophical in nature. I believe if you are grounded in the Bible, the word of God, beginning with Torah as your foundation, you will not error in giving correct answers. There is also a difference between knowing the truth, knowing God's Law, and only having your own thoughts or a general consensus on moral issues/matters. There certainly is a difference between right and wrong, but the unbelieving Gentile may be without much of what would be known to one who has studied Torah or been brought up under the Law. Certainly each person needs the truth of God's word in the gospel, the good news, the message of Christ and Him crucified for each and every one of us, that we are sinners without Him and in need of saving until which point we are born again by the Spirit of God and therefore saved, and a Christian or student of the New Testament likewise has the word of God, but the moral thoughts of the Gentile and the empty philosophy of the one without Christ pale as compared with even a cursory understanding of God's word. Biblical illiteracy not always being the problem (a person can be a Christian without even being able to read, or knowing any scripture, though it is good to know your way around the Bible) it can be recognized that the important thing is salvation but that if our lives are not based on the Bible the word of God and on Jesus Christ God's Son, then what are they based on?