What does God's Holy Law Demand?

[Clete]

Paul tells us why Jesus sent him. It was to show that even people with grave sins could be forgiven---that is what Paul explains.

The Twelve couldn't have sent that message?!

That's what your doctrine implies.

 

[God's Truth]

The Twelve couldn't have sent that message?!

That's what your doctrine implies.

1 Timothy 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

 

[Clete]

I am saying I believe God's word. Shalom.

I say the exact same thing, Jacob!

One of us is wrong!

You are afraid to answer third grade level questions about what you believe! Why?

 

[Clete]

1 Timothy 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

The Twelve weren't shown mercy? Is that what you intended to imply?

That's what your doctrine implies!

 

[Jacob]

I say the exact same thing, Jacob!

One of us is wrong!

You are afraid to answer third grade level questions about what you believe! Why?

I believe I have answered you. The most important thing is what scripture says. It is God's word.

 

[Clete]

I believe I have answered you. The most important thing is what scripture says. It is God's word.

No you don't believe that you've answered me! You intentionally did NOT answer me electing to avoid doing so on the basis that the question was based on a hypothetical!

How do you answer people when they ask you why you believe the bible? That's basically what I'm asking only in different terms.

 

[Jacob]

No you don't believe that you've answered me! You intentionally did NOT answer me electing to avoid doing so on the basis that the question was based on a hypothetical!

How do you answer people when they ask you why you believe the bible? That's basically what I'm asking only in different terms.

My understanding is that you are already a Christian. I want to encourage you to go with what the Bible says. Trust God and take Him at His word. If He says something that is the way it is. I believe this is a sufficient answer for you.

I am not catering to your question but I have thought about it each time you have asked it. You are revealing that there is either something you want to teach me about the way the world thinks or you think I should adopt your method of reasoning. I know I don't need to, if this is the case, and that I can answer you from what I know about God and His word. You can trust Him. You don't need to worry about what if He said this or that you can read what He has said and be obedient to His word.

I don't know why this is a question of believing the Bible. I have already established that I do. You have asked questions and when I answer you tell me I have not answered. I believe you think I am wrong, but I am answering about what God's word says. How could that ever be wrong? My answer is that it is not ever wrong. Standing on the word of God. Standing on the promises of God.

 

[JonahofAkron]

I expected that response. Welcome to the paradigm wall!

Your paradigm won't allow you to see it, no matter what I say because you've not been brought to a place where you'll even permit the notion that your own paradigm could conceivably be incorrect. That's not a criticism of you, that's just the way the human mind works. Attempting to convince you of my doctrine would be akin to trying to convince 12th century Catholics that the Earth orbited the Sun. The context just isn't there to allow it.

However, I will provide a hand full of verses that might help you at least see that I'm not just pulling this stuff out of thin air...

"...those who were saved under the law, remained under it until their physical death..." Romans 11:29

"...Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ, the first to be saved under the Gospel of Grace." 1 Timothy 1:15-16

"...the twelve agreed with Paul that they would stay in Israel and minister to "The Circumcision" and he (Paul) would go to the "Uncircumcision" (i.e. the Gentiles)." Galatians 2:9


That's a taste. Understand, however, that I avoid proof texting at almost any cost and do not intend the above to even be an argument, never mind proof. It's intended only to demonstrate that I'm not just making this stuff up our of whole cloth.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I tremendously appreciate you taking the time to present this logic. I will go through what you gave me.

Sent from my SM-N910T using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[God's Truth]

The Twelve weren't shown mercy? Is that what you intended to imply?

That's what your doctrine implies!

The other apostles did not have Christians dragged to jail and killed. The other apostles did not try to destroy the body of Christ, as Paul did.

 

[Ben Masada]

I am saying I believe God's word. Shalom.

What God's Word Jacob, the NT or the Tanach? As a Jew that Jesus was, every time he referred to God's Word, he had the Tanach in mind. I hope you are aware that he never even dreamed the NT would ever arise.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul says he was a violent man; he gave approval of Stephens’s death, guarded over the clothes that belonged to the men who killed Stephen. Saul put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, he cast his vote against them. Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison. Acts 22:20, Acts 26:10, Acts 8:3.

 

[God's Truth]

What God's Word Jacob, the NT or the Tanach? As a Jew that Jesus was, every time he referred to God's Word,
he had the Tanach in mind. I hope you are aware that he never even dreamed the NT would ever arise.

Jesus was a Prophet. How is it you blasphemy a Prophet saying he had no idea?

 

[Clete]

My understanding is that you are already a Christian. I want to encourage you to go with what the Bible says. Trust God and take Him at His word. If He says something that is the way it is. I believe this is a sufficient answer for you.

I don't need nor did I ask for you encouragement, nor did I ask whether we should take God at His word. Never even suggested that we shouldn't. My question was on a completely different topic. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOPIC, Jacob! It IS NOT a sufficient answer for me, no matter what you believe.,

I am not catering to your question but I have thought about it each time you have asked it.

I simply have no evidence that you even understood what I was asking, never mind that you spent any time at all thinking about it.

You are revealing that there is either something you want to teach me about the way the world thinks or you think I should adopt your method of reasoning.

It's not "my method" of thinking its just thinking and I already addressed this. I do not care if you ever agree with me, I simply want you to at least be able to see what I'm saying and why I'm saying it, but you refuse! You're afraid or stupid or both.

I know I don't need to, if this is the case, and that I can answer you from what I know about God and His word.

And yet you refuse to even acknowledge the question! Who are you lying too, me or yourself?

You can trust Him. You don't need to worry about what if He said this or that you can read what He has said and be obedient to His word.

How do you know that you can trust him, Jacob?

HOW DO YOU KNOW?

Don't answer! I no longer care what you think because you don't think at all. You think that thinking is somehow a betrayal of God.

I don't know why this is a question of believing the Bible. I have already established that I do. You have asked questions and when I answer you tell me I have not answered.

You answer questions I never asked. I know I'm not stupid and I know that my questions were clear and then further clarified. The problem isn't me. The problem is that you are either scared or you are stupid. I can't fix either of those things and won't make any attempt to do so. That's on you.

I believe you think I am wrong, but I am answering about what God's word says.

I know for a fact that you are wrong. These issues are not matters of opinion, Jacob. You cannot realize that because you have a religious aversion to thinking. For you it isn't about knowing, its about blindly believing. The thing that makes it impossible for you to correct your error is that you think that the later is equivalent to the former. David Koresh thought the exact same thing and taught his followers from the exact same bible that you claim to believe and rest your faith upon. What made him wrong and you right? You can have no answer.

How could that ever be wrong?

Do you know how many innocent lives have been slaughtered on the alter of "what God's word says"? People do have wrong doctrine, Jacob! And every single one of them is as convinced as you are that they derive their doctrine for the word of God. And what's more is that they believe that for the EXACT SAME reasons that you do. That reason being that they reject as evil any thought process that even has the potential of leading them away from the doctrine that they already believe.

My answer is that it is not ever wrong. Standing on the word of God. Standing on the promises of God.

You and David Koresh and Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn and Tsvi Sadan all say the exact same thing.

Some or all of you are wrong! How would you ever figure out which?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Paul says he was a violent man; he gave approval of Stephens’s death, guarded over the clothes that belonged to the men who killed Stephen. Saul put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, he cast his vote against them. Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison. Acts 22:20, Acts 26:10, Acts 8:3.

The scripture actually doesn't say that he started to destroy it or that he tried to destroy it, it says that he destroyed it.

Just pointing that out. Continue where you left off....

 

[Clete]

The other apostles did not have Christians dragged to jail and killed. The other apostles did not try to destroy the body of Christ, as Paul did.

So what?

You think Peter, James and John didn't commit sin against God? You think that the Twelve were in need of less forgiveness than Saul? You think that God required a really really bad guy to spread the gospel? Seems like God would have converted him during His Earthly ministry instead of wasting all that time with twelve guys who weren't quite what He needed.

 

[God's Truth]

The scripture actually doesn't say that he started to destroy it or that he tried to destroy it, it says that he destroyed it.

Just pointing that out. Continue where you left off....

Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.


Common sense should show you that the church was not destroyed.

 

[God's Truth]

So what?

You think Peter, James and John didn't commit sin against God? You think that the Twelve were in need of less forgiveness than Saul? You think that God required a really really bad guy to spread the gospel? Seems like God would have converted him during His Earthly ministry instead of wasting all that time with twelve guys who weren't quite what He needed.

You are speaking bizarrely.

Some people have more to be forgiven for.

I give you scriptures and you put them down.

 

[Clete]

Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.


Common sense should show you that the church was not destroyed.

The "and tried" is added by the translators because they didn't have the guts to translate it the way the original reads.

The King James gets it much closer than any modern translation...

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:​

The word "wasted" in the KJV is translated from the Greek word, "portheō", which means "destroy or overthrow". There is no modifier, no "tried to" in the Greek. It isn't there.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God's Truth]

The "and tried" is added by the translators because they didn't have the guts to translate it the way the original reads.

The King James gets it much closer than any modern translation...

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:​

The word "wasted" in the KJV is translated from the Greek word, "portheō", which means "destroy or overthrow". There is no modifier, no "tried to" in the Greek. It isn't there.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You argue about words that do not matter.

 

[Clete]

You are speaking bizarrely.

Some people have more to be forgiven for.

I give you scriptures and you put them down.

No, you just aren't getting the point.

What did Paul do, that the Twelve couldn't IF Paul's message was the same as the Twelve's?

Where is the need for Paul? There isn't one!

The Twelve where given the Holy Spirit Himself to guide them on their "Great Commission". They chose to stay in Israel and minister, not to the whole world as the great commission instructs, but to "the circumcision" and sent Paul to the whole rest of the world.

Resting in Him,
Clete