What disgusts you the most about beanieboy?

[Army of One]

Army of One -
Poly quotes "Abhor what is evil, cling to what is good."
Therefore, she hates evil people.

Show me the context in which this verse is found.
Show me what comes before and after.

What is the point of the passage? How to hate? Or how to treat others, including your enemies?

She thinks that it makes hating others valid, and treating them rudely.
It is lifting from the context.
It is twisting the bible to justify her hate.

Prove me wrong.

So let me get this straight. You use a paraphrase version of the Bible to try to show that Poly is wrong; I call attention to that fact; and now I have to prove something? OK.

The context of Romans 12:9 is Paul giving instructions on how to live a Christian life. One of those pieces of instruction is, "Let love be without hypocrisy". He then describes what it means to not love hypocritically- "Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good." Paul then continues to give additional instructions in the following verses.

The mistake you make is that when you read the following verses, and Paul says to "be kindly affectionate to one another", that you assume that cancels out "Abhor what is evil". Rather, Christians are supposed to use wisdom and common sense to determine when it is appropriate to abhor evil, and when it is appropriate to be kind.

And it is not only this verse that Poly and others use to show that Hate is valid at times. Besides all the verses that show God hating the wicked (Lev. 20:23; Lev. 26:30; Psalm 5:5,6; Ps. 11:5; Ps. 45:7; Proverbs 6:16-19; Pr. 22:14; Jer. 12:8; Hosea 9:9-15), there are also numerous verse that validate God's people hating the wicked.

2 Chr 19:2
And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD is upon you."

Ps 26:5
I have hated the assembly of evildoers, and will not sit with the wicked."

Ps 31:6
I have hated those who regard useless idols; but I trust in the LORD.

Ps 119:113
I hate the double-minded, but I love Your law.

Ps 139:21-22
Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

Prov 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate.

Eccl 3:1, 8
To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven:.... A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Amos 5:15
Hate evil, love good; establish justice in the gate. It may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

Jude 1:22-23
And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

The last verse is particularly relevant to the discussion on Hate. Of course Christians shouldn't hate every sinner, but should be discerning.

Seems any logical thinking person would interpret this verse to mean, "abhor hatred for it is evil" and "cling to love for it is good." That would mean to love everyone, because that's good.

So when Paul says to abhor evil, he really meant "abhor abhorrence"? Ummm,......

 

[eccl3_6]

How, exactly, did they figure out who was and wasn't a virgin? Exams?

Unmarried, ugly birds, who don't drink, with hymens to this side please.....
Everyone else....

 

[Granite]

:shocked:

 

[beanieboy]

So let me get this straight. You use a paraphrase version of the Bible to try to show that Poly is wrong; I call attention to that fact; and now I have to prove something? OK.

The context of Romans 12:9 is Paul giving instructions on how to live a Christian life. One of those pieces of instruction is, "Let love be without hypocrisy". He then describes what it means to not love hypocritically- "Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good." Paul then continues to give additional instructions in the following verses.

The mistake you make is that when you read the following verses, and Paul says to "be kindly affectionate to one another", that you assume that cancels out "Abhor what is evil". Rather, Christians are supposed to use wisdom and common sense to determine when it is appropriate to abhor evil, and when it is appropriate to be kind.

And it is not only this verse that Poly and others use to show that Hate is valid at times. Besides all the verses that show God hating the wicked (Lev. 20:23; Lev. 26:30; Psalm 5:5,6; Ps. 11:5; Ps. 45:7; Proverbs 6:16-19; Pr. 22:14; Jer. 12:8; Hosea 9:9-15), there are also numerous verse that validate God's people hating the wicked.

2 Chr 19:2
And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD is upon you."

Ps 26:5
I have hated the assembly of evildoers, and will not sit with the wicked."

Ps 31:6
I have hated those who regard useless idols; but I trust in the LORD.

Ps 119:113
I hate the double-minded, but I love Your law.

Ps 139:21-22
Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

Prov 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate.

Eccl 3:1, 8
To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven:.... A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Amos 5:15
Hate evil, love good; establish justice in the gate. It may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

Jude 1:22-23
And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

The last verse is particularly relevant to the discussion on Hate. Of course Christians shouldn't hate every sinner, but should be discerning.


So when Paul says to abhor evil, he really meant "abhor abhorrence"? Ummm,......

Let me use the King James:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

9Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

10Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

11Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

12Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

13Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Now, you can single out "Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." and justifying hating others?

The very next verse says, "Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

11Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

12Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

13Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

But Poly, for example, takes this, and then uses it to curse as much as she wishes.
In order to do that, you have to lift one verse, take it out of context, and make it mean something that it was never intended to mean.
And that is what Poly has done, and you support her.

The devil did the same thing to Christ, according to the Gospel.

And that is twisting the bible.

 

[Army of One]

But Poly, for example, takes this, and then uses it to curse as much as she wishes.
In order to do that, you have to lift one verse, take it out of context, and make it mean something that it was never intended to mean.
And that is what Poly has done, and you support her.

The devil did the same thing to Christ, according to the Gospel.

And that is twisting the bible.

If Romans 12:9 were the only verse in the Bible that spoke of hating evil, you might be able to make the argument that it is being twisted. But it isn't. The Bible repeatedly commands us to hate evil. It also repeatedly says that God hates evil, and aren't Christians supposed to follow God's example (to the extent possible)?

You quoting verses that say we are to be kind and gentle does nothing to negate the fact that we are to hate evil. There is a time and place for both. So yes, I support Poly, because the Bible as a whole (including Romans 12:9) makes it clear that "hate" is at times appropriate.

Beanie, it is you that attempt to twist Scripture, by picking out only the verses that speak of Christians being nice, kind, and gentle, yet ignoring the rest of the Bible. I would rather take the whole counsel of God, and realize that there are times for gentleness, and times for harshness (and I'm sure Poly would agree).

 

[Army of One]

Beanie, what then did Paul mean when he said, "Abhor that which is evil."? Was it a meaningless statement, in light of the verses that follow it? If not, what is your interpretation?

 

[beanieboy]

If Romans 12:9 were the only verse in the Bible that spoke of hating evil, you might be able to make the argument that it is being twisted. But it isn't. The Bible repeatedly commands us to hate evil. It also repeatedly says that God hates evil, and aren't Christians supposed to follow God's example (to the extent possible)?

You quoting verses that say we are to be kind and gentle does nothing to negate the fact that we are to hate evil. There is a time and place for both. So yes, I support Poly, because the Bible as a whole (including Romans 12:9) makes it clear that "hate" is at times appropriate.

Beanie, it is you that attempt to twist Scripture, by picking out only the verses that speak of Christians being nice, kind, and gentle, yet ignoring the rest of the Bible. I would rather take the whole counsel of God, and realize that there are times for gentleness, and times for harshness (and I'm sure Poly would agree).

Does that verse twist scripture, saying that it supports hating others?
In context, Paul is calling to love others, to live in harmony, and bless your enemies.

And you are telling me that he plops in the middle that you can hate some people, when he clearly says to Bless your enemies, and bless those who curse you? To feed you enemy if he is hungry?

I simply don't buy it.

We can agree to disagree, but I think you are twisting what it says, when it is surrounded by verses saying that opposite of what you claim it says.

In my opinion, you are twisting the bible, and one could argue, twisting the bible and making it say the opposite of what it obviously says in that verse is not serving God, but working against God.

There is no way I can come to a logical conclusion that that verse condones hatred of others, nor cursing of others.

 

[beanieboy]

Beanie, what then did Paul mean when he said, "Abhor that which is evil."? Was it a meaningless statement, in light of the verses that follow it? If not, what is your interpretation?

Abhor evil itself - strife, gossip, murder, envy.
Cling to what is good - giving to others, supporting others in need, blessing those who curse you, faith, hope, charity, kindness, etc.

I thought that was obvious.

But "that which is evil" you want to define as specific people.

And there, you are really reaching, and must then lie to yourself, and say that it doesn't say to bless those who curse you, and to offer drink to your enemy who is thirsty, to not live in harmony with others, etc.

 

[Agape4Robin]

If Romans 12:9 were the only verse in the Bible that spoke of hating evil, you might be able to make the argument that it is being twisted. But it isn't. The Bible repeatedly commands us to hate evil. It also repeatedly says that God hates evil, and aren't Christians supposed to follow God's example (to the extent possible)?

You quoting verses that say we are to be kind and gentle does nothing to negate the fact that we are to hate evil. There is a time and place for both. So yes, I support Poly, because the Bible as a whole (including Romans 12:9) makes it clear that "hate" is at times appropriate.

Beanie, it is you that attempt to twist Scripture, by picking out only the verses that speak of Christians being nice, kind, and gentle, yet ignoring the rest of the Bible. I would rather take the whole counsel of God, and realize that there are times for gentleness, and times for harshness (and I'm sure Poly would agree).

Well said! :BRAVO:

 

[beanieboy]

http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/nov4.html

The Bible is filled with admonitions on how to build better relationships and how to live with other people. A few years ago I read through the Bible marking all the passages that speak of personal relationships. I was amazed at the hundreds of passages that teach us how to live with one another. Here are a few glimpses at relationships in Romans 12-15.

· See yourself as equals. Do not look down on other people with arrogant pride (Romans 12:3).

· Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to think, but “think as to have a sound judgment, as God has allotted each a measure of faith” (v. 3). A good healthy Biblical self-esteem goes a long way in developing a winsome witness for Christ. We need to ask the Holy Spirit to help us strip away all conceit in our lives. There is nothing so shallow as spiritual conceit.

· "Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation" (Romans 12:16, NASB 1995).

· Christians need to respect each other’s spiritual gifts (vv. 4-8). We all enjoy the same relationship with Christ as members of the body in Christ, but the Holy Spirit has given us different gifts according to His sovereign choices and needs in the body (v. 6). We need to exercise these spiritual gifts and no try to mimic someone else’s gift or envy them. We need to respect each other and appreciate how the Holy Spirit has chosen to use us in the kingdom of God. We need to honor and respect our own humble calling and place our service in the body of Christ. There is no place for envy, green-eyed jealousy or conceit in the body of Christ.

· Don’t be “two-faced.” The apostle Paul said, “Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good” (v. 9). Do you hate evil wherever it is found? Love does not wear a mask. It is honest, open and genuinely transparent.

· Love without hypocrisy.

· “Abhor what is evil.”

· “Cling to what is good.”

· “Be devoted to one another in brotherly love” (v. 10a).

· “Give preference to one another in honor” (v. 10b).

· Serve the Lord with all your heart. Do not lag behind in diligence, but be fervent in spirit, serving the Lord (v. 11).

· “Rejoice in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer” (v. 12).

· Be giving people. “Contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality” (v. 13).

· “Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep” (v. 15).

· How do you treat your enemy? “Bless those who persecute you; bless and curse not” (v. 14).

· “Never pay back evil to anyone” (v. 17a).

· “Respect what is right in the sight of all men” (v. 17b).

· “If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men” (v. 18).

· “Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the LORD’” (v. 19).

· “If your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head” (v. 20).

· “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” (v. 21).

· “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law” (13:8).

· “Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law” (v. 10).

· “Accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions” (14:1).

· Do “not put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way” (v. 15b).

· “Let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another” (v. 19).

· “We who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves” (15:1).

· “Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to his edification” (v. 2).

· “Accept one another just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God” (v. 7).

 

[intro2faith]

*SIGH*

I think we should just all dig deep down, and think about WHY we are treating the people the way we are. If they are Godly reasons, then it's absolutely fine. If they're not, then that person needs to work some things out with God.

Otherwise, I think it would be wise to drop the whole thing...because we are just going around in circles. If a Christian sees that his/her brother or sister in Christ is treating someone in an ungodly manner, and they feel God is leading them to talk to them about it, then let that person bring it up to them in private. If this person chooses to continue in their ungodly behavior, then let it drop, and just pray for them..because you have said all you can.

If an unbeliever sees that a Christian is treating someone in a spiteful way...then I suggest that the unbeliever gets saved and approaches his/her new brother or sister in Christ. Otherwise, sort through your own problems.

Just my .02 :up:

 

[Army of One]

Abhor evil itself - strife, gossip, murder, envy.
Cling to what is good - giving to others, supporting others in need, blessing those who curse you, faith, hope, charity, kindness, etc.

I thought that was obvious.

But "that which is evil" you want to define as specific people.

So you agree that Christians are to hate evil then? The problem you have to contend with then, is that evil cannot be seperated from the evildoer. Proverbs 23:7 says that, "for as he thinks in his heart, so is he". Jeremiah makes it clear that it isn't the action only that is evil, but the heart- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). Jesus said the same thing- "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." (Luke 6:45), and "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." (Matt. 15:19)

It is the person that is evil! And in case you missed them, the verses I quoted earlier refer to hating the person, not some abstract idea of "evil", and the same goes for the verses I cited about God hating the wicked. You're fighting a losing battle here Beanie.

And there, you are really reaching, and must then lie to yourself, and say that it doesn't say to bless those who curse you, and to offer drink to your enemy who is thirsty, to not live in harmony with others, etc.

Again, I don't have to pick and choose verses like you do. I accept them all, realizing that each has it's time and place.

 

[Agape4Robin]

So you agree that Christians are to hate evil then? The problem you have to contend with then, is that evil cannot be seperated from the evildoer. Proverbs 23:7 says that, "for as he thinks in his heart, so is he". Jeremiah makes it clear that it isn't the action only that is evil, but the heart- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). Jesus said the same thing- "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." (Luke 6:45), and "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." (Matt. 15:19)

It is the person that is evil! And in case you missed them, the verses I quoted earlier refer to hating the person, not some abstract idea of "evil", and the same goes for the verses I cited about God hating the wicked. You're fighting a losing battle here Beanie.


Again, I don't have to pick and choose verses like you do. I accept them all, realizing that each has it's time and place.

*Standing "O"* :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO:

 

[Poly]

So you agree that Christians are to hate evil then? The problem you have to contend with then, is that evil cannot be seperated from the evildoer. Proverbs 23:7 says that, "for as he thinks in his heart, so is he". Jeremiah makes it clear that it isn't the action only that is evil, but the heart- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). Jesus said the same thing- "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." (Luke 6:45), and "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." (Matt. 15:19)

It is the person that is evil! And in case you missed them, the verses I quoted earlier refer to hating the person, not some abstract idea of "evil", and the same goes for the verses I cited about God hating the wicked. You're fighting a losing battle here Beanie.


Again, I don't have to pick and choose verses like you do. I accept them all, realizing that each has it's time and place.

Now that's what I call some serious smack! :up:

 

[eccl3_6]

But don't we all do evil? Don't we all have sins that need to be forgiven?
Does this mean I must hate everyone?
Who do I judge?

 

[intro2faith]

There is a difference between hating with a perfect hate, and being cruel and mocking.

 

[eccl3_6]

Who does the Bible teach me to be cruel to?
Did Jesus hate the tax collector?
Did God hate Saul?
Who do I judge guilty?

 

[missedmarks]

The bible doesn't teach you to be cruel to anyone. Nor to hate anyone.

Linking verses that say we are to hate that which is evil into a line of reasoning that ends in saying that one should hate those that do evil make no sense. Thats bad interpretation and it's isogesis of the worst sort.

Even the most depraved and evil person is still a child of God and is made in his image. He is not your enemy, your enemy is Satan who has stolen that child from the flock. Some people would argue that harsh measures are needed to get that child back, and I won't argue with them, hellfire preaching gets results for some people. Other people however are simply looking for justification to be cruel. They are the same as the rock throwing mob Christ countered with his famous "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." Course they ain't wrong, they got the scriptures to back it up...the rock throwing mob did too, that whole incident was an attempt to force Christ to compromise and say something against "The Law" Follow his example and you can't go wrong.

P.S. He didn't let the adultress off the hook, he informed her that he did not condemn her, and to go leave her life of sin.

 

[Balder]

In treating the whole Bible as equally inspired, all words proceeding from the same source, I think Christians run the risk of equalizing what is not equal, and eviscerating what could be a truly meaningful development in the heart and spirit of the faith and of the believer. What I mean by this is that all statements and commands in the Bible are assumed to be equally righteous and equally "enlightened" or Godly. The possibility for a development in moral scope and vision is compromised, because the literalist feels compelled to defend hateful and jealous statements and acts and to "gussy them up" rather than recognizing them for what they are. Rather than allowing for a growth in Spirit which transcends previous modes of consciousness and cognition, but which reveals the limitations and faults of earlier conceptions of God and his nature, the literalist prefers to preserve his idea of infallibility, even (or especially?) if it means watering down the radical message of kenotic agape.

Jesus, in this vision, could just as easily have led campaigns of slaughter on Roman villages, spearing babies and cutting down old folks, as he could have brought healing to the lost and suffering masses. He didn't, not because he was morally above such things or because he saw anything wrong with them, but because this particular act didn't serve his immediate "purposes."

And strangely, the fundamentalist folks who argue most strongly for Biblical "context" (ever intent on preserving their notion of infallibility), are the same people who criticize postmodern folks for the "absurdity" of their contextually-grounded sense of morality...

Strange, indeed. And sad.

 

[Poly]

The bible doesn't teach you to be cruel to anyone. Nor to hate anyone.

Linking verses that say we are to hate that which is evil into a line of reasoning that ends in saying that one should hate those that do evil make no sense. Thats bad interpretation and it's isogesis of the worst sort.

Even the most depraved and evil person is still a child of God and is made in his image. He is not your enemy, your enemy is Satan who has stolen that child from the flock. Some people would argue that harsh measures are needed to get that child back, and I won't argue with them, hellfire preaching gets results for some people. Other people however are simply looking for justification to be cruel. They are the same as the rock throwing mob Christ countered with his famous "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." Course they ain't wrong, they got the scriptures to back it up...the rock throwing mob did too, that whole incident was an attempt to force Christ to compromise and say something against "The Law" Follow his example and you can't go wrong.

P.S. He didn't let the adultress off the hook, he informed her that he did not condemn her, and to go leave her life of sin.

Your name certainly suits you.