Hi and since there seems to be few Jews today , is Rom 9:8 speaking to those of the past OR is it speaking to Jews today ??
dan p
ECT Two Gospels Preached During The Acts Period
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Hi and since there seems to be few Jews today , is Rom 9:8 speaking to those of the past OR is it speaking to Jews today ??
dan p
Interplanner
Well-known member
Rom 9-11 has illustrations from the past, present and future--that it has always been by faith. It has not been by descent.
Hi , BUT in Rom 11:26 it reads , And so ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED , all Israel !!
Is that true ??
dan p
Interplanner
Well-known member
Not as you think, no.
1, if 'all' are saved at one future point, what about those in 1400 AD Europe?
2, the expression 'kai houtos' is about the manner that he had been illustrating all along. The nation Israel would always be partially hard. The Israel that believed would be justified from its sins.
1, if 'all' are saved at one future point, what about those in 1400 AD Europe?
2, the expression 'kai houtos' is about the manner that he had been illustrating all along. The nation Israel would always be partially hard. The Israel that believed would be justified from its sins.
Hi and there are 3 verbs in Rom 11:26 and SHALL BE SAVED and SHALL TURN AWAY are in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and it is God that saves and Turn away Israel away from there situation and that is at the end of the Great Tribulation !!
dan p
Interplanner
Well-known member
It is Isaiah's future, DanP and all. In isaiah's future,
the Redeemer comes to Zion and takes away sins
he initiates the new covenant,
he turns Jacob from sin.
All this happened in Isaiah's future in Christ.
Paul is excited about it, because it is here. The real Israel believes it. It is part of the expression 'in this manner'--ie, this is how the real Israel is saved; they believe all these things have come in Christ. This goes on now on a daily basis ever since the Gospel was preached. That's how 'all Israel' is justified from their sins.
It was not originally written to us in the 20th/21st century, although, if you listen to 2P2P-ers, you'd never know, because they are desparate for Bible verses that 'need to be fulfilled by a Davidic theocracy in Judea in our future.'
One message of the remnant - the remnant of Israel in Isaiah 10: 22-23, Zephaniah 3: 12-13, Romans 9: 27, Romans 11: 1-5, Revelation 12: 17, Revelation 7: 3-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5 - is that all the redeemed in Christ Jesus are Israel remade (Jeremiah 18: 1-6), into that spiritual house in the New Covenant seen in I Peter 2: 5, 9. Those of Christian Zionism and Separation Theology argue against the word of God, and say Israel remains those of the physical bloodline, in spite of what is said in Galatians 3: 3, 13-17, 26-29.
"Are ye so unwise that after ye have begun in the Spirit ye would now end in the flesh?.........But Christ hath delivered us from the curse of the law and was made accursed for us. For it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ and that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren I will speak after the manner of men. Though it be but a man's testament yet no man despiseth it or addeth anything thereto when it is once allowed.
16 To Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He sayth not in the seeds as in many: but in thy seed as in one which is Christ.
17 This I say that the law which began afterward beyond .iiii.C and .xxx. years (430 years) doth not disannul the testament that was confirmed before of God unto Christward to make the promise of none effect................. For ye are all the sons of God by ye faith which is in Christ Jesus.
27 For all ye that are baptized have put on Christ.
28 Now is there no Jew nether Gentile,: there is nether bond nor free,: there is nether man nor woman: but ye are all one thing in Christ Jesus.
29 If ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs by promise." Galatians 3: 3, 13-16, 26-29, Tyndale New Testament
"Are ye so unwise that after ye have begun in the Spirit ye would now end in the flesh?.........But Christ hath delivered us from the curse of the law and was made accursed for us. For it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ and that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren I will speak after the manner of men. Though it be but a man's testament yet no man despiseth it or addeth anything thereto when it is once allowed.
16 To Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He sayth not in the seeds as in many: but in thy seed as in one which is Christ.
17 This I say that the law which began afterward beyond .iiii.C and .xxx. years (430 years) doth not disannul the testament that was confirmed before of God unto Christward to make the promise of none effect................. For ye are all the sons of God by ye faith which is in Christ Jesus.
27 For all ye that are baptized have put on Christ.
28 Now is there no Jew nether Gentile,: there is nether bond nor free,: there is nether man nor woman: but ye are all one thing in Christ Jesus.
29 If ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs by promise." Galatians 3: 3, 13-16, 26-29, Tyndale New Testament
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is not true and you know it. The Dispensationalists teach that at this time Israel has been temporarily set aside as the Lord's special people. Today both Jews and Gentiles who believe are baptized into one Body, the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13). And the Jews are not baptized into that Body because of their bloodline.
You should be ashamed of yourself for misrepresenting the teaching of the Dispensationalists.
Right Divider
Body part
Amen Jerry. They lie and then defeat that lie; what a big surprise.
Saved they were by believing Christ was the Son but they did not receive eternal life.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Sorry jerry but you haven't looked at greek text commentaries. The proper tranlsation is not a gospel to the circumcision but a preaching to the circ and a preaching to the uncirc. The same gospel was preached. (Also it in ch 2). Anyone with a basic knowledge of the case system of Greek knows that the reference point is the verb (preaching) not a gospel for each one.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So even though they were born of God they did not receive eternal life?:
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).
Hi and you are wrong , and one example is what you said " IN CHRIST "
Only Paul explains what being " in Christ " means and it is not Jesus NO R Peter and there are about 160 " in Christ " phrases and Paul is the ONLY who explains what they are !!
You do not KNOW , do you ??
Want to try what it means to be " in Christ " ??
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Those who are said to be "in Christ" are members of the Church, which is His Body. If "any one be in Christ" he is a member of the Body of Christ.
Hi and ONLY those saved by the MYSTERY are in the B O C as Paul wrote in Gal 3:28 and the 4 verbs there are in the PRESENT TENSE and that means it happens in the Dispensation of the Mystery period !
As I have said Jesus NOR Peter uses the phrase " in Christ " or do you want to Explain Rom 16:7 ??
You , many times use a CONTEXT which is wrong !!
Like John or 1 John !!
I use any book , BUT through 2 Tim 2:15 !!
dan p
Yo, know it all.
1 Peter 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1 Peter 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.
Now watch you read some fool idea into what I meant by posting those two passages :chuckle:
According to Jesus the church (body of Christ) was built on Cephas. That would include Paul who was extended the hand of friendship by Peter and a couple of others.
1 Corinthians 15:3-5 NET For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received - that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures and that he appeared to Cephas then to the twelve.
1 Corinthians 15:11 NET Whether then it was I or they, this is the way we preach and this is the way you believed.
1 Corinthians 15:11 NET Whether then it was I or they, this is the way we preach and this is the way you believed.
"According to Jesus the church (body of Christ) was built on Cephas."
Any doctrine is established by the original meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words used to express that doctrine. A translation into English should not change that doctrine. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines ekklesia, number 1577, as "a calling out, i.e. (to) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation..."
The old English word circe, chirche, kirk or churche is said to have meant the house of a lord, a place of pagan worship, or circe, the Greek goddess. But circe, or churche was redefined by the clergy. Neither churche as a house of a pagan lord or circe as the Greek goddess have the same meaning as the Greek word ekklesia.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for number 1577, ekklesia, says the word means "a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven, or both), assembly, church."
The calling out part of the original definition of ekklesia is not limited to a calling out to God nor even to a calling out to a meeting of Christians, but meant a calling out to a non-religious meeting.
The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by George Ricker Berry, 1958. has "assembly" for ekklesia and not "church."
Most often in the New Testament ekklesia is used to mean a local assembly of Christians. However in Colossians 1: 18 and in Colossians 1: 24 Paul appears to use ekklesia to mean the body of Christ.
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1: 18
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" Colossians 1: 24
Is Paul in Colossians 1: 18 and Colossians 1: 24 changing the meaning of ekklesia from a local congregation to the Body of Christ? If so, then he is saying that all who belong to the Church are the elect of God.
If church is given the same meaning as the Greek word it is translated from, then joining a church puts you into the elect of God. The Body of Christ is unique, not like the concept of a meeting or a congregation which is not unique. So, making the Body of Christ identical to the meeting, the congregation, makes all who belong to a church the elect of God as the Body of Christ, even after the falling away or apostasy of Ii Thessalonians 2: 3-4.
To avoid confusion church should mean congregation, not the Body of Christ, or the Elect, the Saints, or Israel.
in Philemon 1: 2, which is a short letter considered to be written at the time of Paul's imprisonment in Rome in about 58 to 62 A.D., Paul used ekklesia to refer to a local church. Philemon 1: 2 says "And to our belived Apphia and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house."
If Paul in Colossians 1: 18 and 1: 24 intended to change the use of ekklesia from being a local congregation of Christians to being equal to the Body of Christ, the elect of God, he would likely have been consistent in its use.
Why is church in the three early New Testaments translated out of the Greek Textus Receptus - the Tyndale New Testament, the Geneva Bible and the King James Version - not capitalized, but following ekklesia, from which church is translated, is not unique as is Israel? The Body of Christ is likewise unique, unlike ekklesia-congregation.
Since ekklesia means a meeting or assembly of those called to meet for some purpose, church must have the same meaning. So Tyndale was right in translating ekklesia consistently as congregation rather that as church.
Tyndale consistently translated ekklesia as congregation except in Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37 where he used churche, meaning a pagan place of worship. Tyndale broke with Catholic tradition and used congregation for ekklesia something which might have contributed to his being strangled at the stake by the Catholics.
John Wycliffe in his 1382 English translation of the Latin ecclesia used chirche. For example, Wycliffe says for Acts 6: 1, "But Saul was consentynge to his deth. And greet persecucioun
was maad that dai in the chirche, that was in Jerusalem."
Any doctrine is established by the original meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words used to express that doctrine. A translation into English should not change that doctrine. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines ekklesia, number 1577, as "a calling out, i.e. (to) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation..."
The old English word circe, chirche, kirk or churche is said to have meant the house of a lord, a place of pagan worship, or circe, the Greek goddess. But circe, or churche was redefined by the clergy. Neither churche as a house of a pagan lord or circe as the Greek goddess have the same meaning as the Greek word ekklesia.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for number 1577, ekklesia, says the word means "a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven, or both), assembly, church."
The calling out part of the original definition of ekklesia is not limited to a calling out to God nor even to a calling out to a meeting of Christians, but meant a calling out to a non-religious meeting.
The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by George Ricker Berry, 1958. has "assembly" for ekklesia and not "church."
Most often in the New Testament ekklesia is used to mean a local assembly of Christians. However in Colossians 1: 18 and in Colossians 1: 24 Paul appears to use ekklesia to mean the body of Christ.
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1: 18
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" Colossians 1: 24
Is Paul in Colossians 1: 18 and Colossians 1: 24 changing the meaning of ekklesia from a local congregation to the Body of Christ? If so, then he is saying that all who belong to the Church are the elect of God.
If church is given the same meaning as the Greek word it is translated from, then joining a church puts you into the elect of God. The Body of Christ is unique, not like the concept of a meeting or a congregation which is not unique. So, making the Body of Christ identical to the meeting, the congregation, makes all who belong to a church the elect of God as the Body of Christ, even after the falling away or apostasy of Ii Thessalonians 2: 3-4.
To avoid confusion church should mean congregation, not the Body of Christ, or the Elect, the Saints, or Israel.
in Philemon 1: 2, which is a short letter considered to be written at the time of Paul's imprisonment in Rome in about 58 to 62 A.D., Paul used ekklesia to refer to a local church. Philemon 1: 2 says "And to our belived Apphia and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house."
If Paul in Colossians 1: 18 and 1: 24 intended to change the use of ekklesia from being a local congregation of Christians to being equal to the Body of Christ, the elect of God, he would likely have been consistent in its use.
Why is church in the three early New Testaments translated out of the Greek Textus Receptus - the Tyndale New Testament, the Geneva Bible and the King James Version - not capitalized, but following ekklesia, from which church is translated, is not unique as is Israel? The Body of Christ is likewise unique, unlike ekklesia-congregation.
Since ekklesia means a meeting or assembly of those called to meet for some purpose, church must have the same meaning. So Tyndale was right in translating ekklesia consistently as congregation rather that as church.
Tyndale consistently translated ekklesia as congregation except in Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37 where he used churche, meaning a pagan place of worship. Tyndale broke with Catholic tradition and used congregation for ekklesia something which might have contributed to his being strangled at the stake by the Catholics.
John Wycliffe in his 1382 English translation of the Latin ecclesia used chirche. For example, Wycliffe says for Acts 6: 1, "But Saul was consentynge to his deth. And greet persecucioun
was maad that dai in the chirche, that was in Jerusalem."
Hi and I am SO mis-understood by those who have no GRASP of Dispensationalism and you sometimes do write good stuff and then FALL into that gulf on nonsense and Jerry is WORSE even those I do like him and you 2 make me think A BIT but not to HARD !!
He threw that in to confuse you and is just a BLENDER !!
dan p
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).
Those who are said to be "in Christ" are members of the Church, which is His Body. It is inconceivable that Paul would use the phrase "in Christ" indiscriminately, sometimes applying it to the Body of Christ and sometimes not. That would lead to nothing but confusion and our Lord is not a God of confusion. Therefore the following verse must refer to the fact that others preceded Paul as members of the Body of Christ:
"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).