Trumpcare will throw people off healthcare?

[drbrumley]

the reconciliation process has strict rules that govern bills that go threw it. Basically most laws that regulate or deregulate or handles any non budget related law is not to passed using it. Moving healthcare to a free market system requires significant deregulation and many non-budget related laws, therefore Republicans must jump through legal and logical hula hoops just to have a watered down bill capable of meeting the strict reconciliation rules. one example of this is the individual mandate since it's basically a regulation of sorts so it can't be "repealed" via reconciliation, instead rebulicans simply reduced the penalty to zero in order to comply with the reconciliation rules.

Well, it is not squaring with me I guess...One would think a Congressman who spent over 25 years in the House knows how to do this.....if they wanted to, they could do this.....I think it is a matter of them not wanting to....there is a reason for this bill, and it isn't to help us...

 

[WizardofOz]

Yes, reject everything, nothing is good enough :thumb:

5th Republican senator comes out in opposition to health care bill
[MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION] - what do you know about the healthcare bill that you like?

 

[jeffblue101]

Well, it is not squaring with me I guess...One would think a Congressman who spent over 25 years in the House knows how to do this.....if they wanted to, they could do this.....I think it is a matter of them not wanting to....there is a reason for this bill, and it isn't to help us...

there really isn't a way without nuking the filibuster or winning 60 seats. Why do you think even the freedom house caucus passed their version?

 

[drbrumley]

5th Republican senator comes out in opposition to health care bill

[MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION] - what do you know about the healthcare bill that you like?

Its called "TrumpCare"? :idunno:

 

[patrick jane]

5th Republican senator comes out in opposition to health care bill

@patrick jane - what do you know about the healthcare bill that you like?

It's still 98% Obamacare, what's not to like? :rotfl:

 

[drbrumley]

It's still 98% Obamacare, what's not to like? :rotfl:

Everything?

 

[jgarden]

Even Canadians Are Waking Up . . .
Thomas DiLorenzo
. . . to the systemic awfulness of socialized healthcare, writes Canadian Cathy LeBoeuf-Schouten (cathy.schouten@hotmail.com).* After publishing an article on LewRockwell.com entitled. “My Canadian Healthcare Horror Stories,” Cathy discovered that the article had elicited 27,000 hits from all over the Canadian blogosphere.* The article produced “a cascade effect” of other Canadians sharing their socialized healthcare stories, she wrote me.* She appeared on several state radio (CBC) shows where she “got across many points that I have seen raised on LewRockwell.com, by people such as Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Walter Block, Tom DiLorenzo et al,” and the CBC host even promoted her article*from LewRockwell.com.
“The turmoil of the American debate on healthcare has percolated up to us,” she writes.* “People are now sharing horror stories and realizing that the awfulness is systemic.* My [American] friends, take this as proof that no matter what your government may say about Canadians’ general satisfaction with their socialized medicine, there is huge dissension and people are looking for alternatives.”
Who knows, Canadians may move in the direction of healthcare freedom while Americans embrace the totalitarian alternative.

Has "drbrumley" ever taken the time to ask average Canadians, who are enjoying their approximately 3 years of additional life expectancy, as to whether they would trade their universal healthcare system for the American version - and that includes Obamacare?

The article "How Canada Stole the American Dream" may be a little dated, but most of its conclusions are still valid!

http://www.carp.ca/2009/08/30/special-canada-day-report-how-canada-stole-the-american-dream/

 

[drbrumley]

there really isn't a way without nuking the filibuster or winning 60 seats. Why do you think even the freedom house caucus passed their version?

So basically all this is is "kick the can down the road." Thank you for your replies sir :up:

 

[drbrumley]

Has "drbrumley" taken the time to ask average Canadians who are enjoying their 3 years of additional life expectancy as to whether they would trade their universal healthcare system for the American version - and that includes Obamacare?

The article "How Canada Stole the American Dream" may be a little dated but most of its conclusions are still valid!

http://www.carp.ca/2009/08/30/special-canada-day-report-how-canada-stole-the-american-dream/

Yeah, I live in Florida, during the winter Canadians are here, they are called snowbirds. I talk with them...That's why they can't wait to get here so they have better healthcare...

 

[jeffblue101]

So basically all this is is "kick the can down the road." Thank you for your replies sir :up:

basically but some republicans have another reason that they want to pass this bill as well. since any bill passing through the reconciliation must be revenue neutral they are trying to use the tax savings from this bill to finance the tax reform bill they want to pass via reconciliation as well.

 

[jgarden]

Thomas James DiLorenzo (born August 8, 1954) is an American economics professor at Loyola University Maryland Sellinger School of Business. He identifies himself as an adherent of the Austrian School of economics. He is a research fellow at The Independent Institute, a senior fellow of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, Board of Advisors member at CFACT, a member of the Mont Pelerin Society, and an associate of the Abbeville Institute.

... DiLorenzo began to study libertarianism in college, which he says helped him gain perspective on his developing ideas

... Controversy arose in 2011 when DiLorenzo testified before the House Financial Services Committee at the request of former U.S. Congressman Ron Paul. During the hearing, Congressman Lacy Clay criticized DiLorenzo for his associations with the League of the South, which Clay described as a "neo-Confederate group".[33] In Reuters and Baltimore Sun articles about the hearing, a Southern Poverty Law Center story about DiLorenzo's connection with the League was mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_DiLorenzo

Thomas James DiLorenzo is an American libertarian so it would come as no surprise that he would oppose the Canadian healthcare system.

 

[drbrumley]

basically but some republicans have another reason that they want to pass this bill as well. since any bill passing through the reconciliation must be revenue neutral they are trying to use the tax savings from this bill to finance the tax reform bill they want to pass via reconciliation as well.

That's fine and all..but the bill still stinks...

They are playing with my money, thinking it is their money....

 

[drbrumley]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_DiLorenzo

And?

 

[jeffblue101]

That's fine and all..but the bill still stinks...

They are playing with my money, thinking it is their money....

honestly, I want republicans just to nuke the filibuster. so they can scrap this bill and start from scratch to build a better bill. rather than legislate through this convoluted mess.

 

[drbrumley]

honestly, I want republicans just to nuke the filibuster. so they can scrap this bill and start from scratch to build a better bill. rather than legislate through this convoluted mess.

Agreed

 

[ClimateSanity]

The best comparison for healthcare would be between Canada and the US - which share 5,525 miles of common border.

Canada adopted a universal system in the late 1960's, after Saskatchewan demonstrated that it could be successful introduced into a rural, North American setting.

Life expectancy, a common measure for the success of any healthcare system, was approximately the same for both countries and Canadians in the late 1960's, but the gap favouring Canadians spread to almost 3 years with its introduction of universal medical care!

Whatever its difficulties, most Canadian are just thankful that they live north of the border when it comes to healthcare!

Weren't general life conditions markedly better post sixties in Canada? That will cause increases in life expectancy that to my mind exceed greater access to healthcare.

 

[ClimateSanity]

Many Canadians spend their winters in the southern US and are pretty knowledgeable as to how both countries compare in a number of areas.

There are reasons why Canadians aren't taking advantage of their 5 252 miles of largely unprotected border, trying to experience the "American Dream!"

The reality is that the "American Dream" is prospering far better north of the border!

Some people have been trained to appreciate others taking responsibility for their well being.

Some people have come to realize they will be happier if they take responsibility for their well being.

 

[drbrumley]

Ron Paul's speech on the House floor.

Transcript:

Government has been mismanaging medical care for more than 45 years; for every problem it has created it has responded by exponentially expanding the role of government.
Points to consider:

1. No one has a right to medical care. If one assumes such a right, it endorses the notion that some individuals have a right to someone else’s life and property. This totally contradicts the principles of liberty.

2. If medical care is provided by government, this can only be achieved by an authoritarian government unconcerned about the rights of the individual.

3. Economic fallacies accepted for more than 100 years in the United States has deceived policy makers into believing that quality medical care can only be achieved by government force, taxation, regulations, and bowing to a system of special interests that creates a system of corporatism.

4. More dollars into any monopoly run by government never increases quality but it always results in higher costs and prices.

5. Government does have an important role to play in facilitating the delivery of all goods and services in an ethical and efficient manner.

6. First, government should do no harm. It should get out of the way and repeal all the laws that have contributed to the mess we have.

7. The costs are obviously too high but in solving this problem one cannot ignore the debasement of the currency as a major factor.

8. Bureaucrats and other third parties must never be allowed to interfere in the doctor/patient relationship.

9. The tax code, including the ERISA laws, must be changed to give everyone equal treatment by allowing a 100% tax credit for all medical expenses.
Laws dealing with bad outcomes and prohibiting doctors from entering into voluntary agreements with their patients must be repealed. Tort laws play a significant role in pushing costs higher, prompting unnecessary treatment and excessive testing. Patients deserve the compensation; the attorneys do not.

10. Insurance sales should be legalized nationally across state lines to increase competition among the insurance companies.

11. Long-term insurance policies should be available to young people similar to term-life insurances that offer fixed prices for long periods of time.

12. The principle of insurance should be remembered. Its purpose in a free market is to measure risk, not to be used synonymously with social welfare programs. Any program that provides for first-dollar payment is no longer insurance. This would be similar to giving coverage for gasoline and repair bills to those who buy car insurance or providing food insurance for people to go to the grocery store. Obviously, that could not work.

13. The cozy relationship between organized medicine and government must be reversed.
Early on medical insurance was promoted by the medical community in order to boost re-imbursements to doctors and hospitals. That partnership has morphed into the government/insurance industry still being promoted by the current administration.

14. Threatening individuals with huge fines by forcing them to buy insurance is a boon to the insurance companies.

15. There must be more competition for individuals entering into the medical field. Licensing strictly limits the number of individuals who can provide patient care. A lot of problems were created in 20th century as a consequence the Flexner Report (1910), which was financed by the Carnegie Foundation and strongly supported by the AMA. Many medical schools were closed and the number of doctors was drastically reduced. The motivation was to close down medical schools that catered to women, minorities and especially homeopathy. We continue to suffer from these changes which were designed to protect physician’s income and promote allopathic medicine over the more natural cures and prevention of homeopathic medicine.

16. We must remove any obstacles for people seeking holistic and nutritional alternatives to current medical care. We must remove the threat of further regulations pushed by the drug companies now working worldwide to limit these alternatives.

True competition in the delivery of medical care is what is needed, not more government meddling.

:up:

 

[jgarden]

Even Canadians Are Waking Up . . .
Thomas DiLorenzo . . . to the systemic awfulness of socialized healthcare, writes Canadian Cathy LeBoeuf-Schouten (cathy.schouten@hotmail.com).* After publishing an article on LewRockwell.com entitled. “My Canadian Healthcare Horror Stories,” Cathy discovered that the article had elicited 27,000 hits from all over the Canadian blogosphere.* The article produced “a cascade effect” of other Canadians sharing their socialized healthcare stories, she wrote me.* She appeared on several state radio (CBC) shows where she “got across many points that I have seen raised on LewRockwell.com, by people such as Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Walter Block, Tom DiLorenzo et al,” and the CBC host even promoted her article*from LewRockwell.com.
“The turmoil of the American debate on healthcare has percolated up to us,” she writes.* “People are now sharing horror stories and realizing that the awfulness is systemic.* My [American] friends, take this as proof that no matter what your government may say about Canadians’ general satisfaction with their socialized medicine, there is huge dissension and people are looking for alternatives.”
Who knows, Canadians may move in the direction of healthcare freedom while Americans embrace the totalitarian alternative.

LewRockwell.com (LRC) is a libertarian website which states that its purpose is "to help carry on the anti-war, anti-state, pro-market work of Murray N. Rothbard." It was begun in 1999 by anarcho-capitalists Lew Rockwell and Burt Blumert as an affiliate of the nonprofit Center for Libertarian Studies. The site presents articles and blog entries by Lew Rockwell and other contributors as well as a weekly podcast called the Lew Rockwell Show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LewRockwell.com

"Drbrumley" is attempting to pass off "LewRockwell.com," an American libertarian website dedicated to "to help carry on "the anti-war, anti-state, pro-market work of Murray N. Rothbard," as a credible reference for Canadian healthcare.

Both Thomas DiLorenzo and Cathy LeBoeuf-Schouten are contributors to "LewRockwell.com" and as libertarians they are predisposed not to have anything positive to say in favor of a healthcare system to which they are philosophically opposed!

 

[drbrumley]

"Drbrumley" is attempting to pass off "LewRockwell.com," an American libertarian website dedicated to "to help carry on "the anti-war, anti-state, pro-market work of Murray N. Rothbard," as a credible reference for Canadian healthcare.

Both Thomas DiLorenzo and Cathy LeBoeuf-Schouten are contributors to "LewRockwell.com" and as libertarians they are predisposed not to have anything positive to say in favor of a healthcare system to which they are philosophically opposed!

I see, so the people from Canada that I meet are lying...now I understand...