ECT True or False question (Billy Graham)

[turbosixx]

That's more than a couple questions but that's ok because they are very good questions. I'm glad to give my current understanding and would love to better understand your view as well. I will address them one at a time as time allows. Sorry it's long but these are serious questions.

:think:

...in your sig -->

A couple of point, qestions:

1) What if I am just not good enough at obedience?

What comes to mind for me is that God doesn't give us, and I believe expect of us, more than we can handle, 1 Cor. 10:13.
Matt. 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
So if God doesn't give us more than we can handle, then it comes down to a matter of will. We have no choice but to obey someone and I see only two choices.

Is it NOT God's desire to give any of us assurance of salvation? If not, what purpose?

There are many passages on assurance and I don't need to quote any here because I'm sure you know them well. Yes, we can be totally assured of salvation. I'm not saying you but when I hear peoples comments, they focus on those passages of assurance and in their minds they make it total assurance and thereby cancel out or don't understand or just ignore the warnings written to Christians.

I love John because he tells us HOW WE CAN KNOW that we are saved. Those are his word, "by this we know".
1 Jn. 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

This is the bible telling us HOW WE CAN KNOW we are in Christ. If we are keeping his word then we can be assured. Ask people you know how they know they are in Christ and see what kind of answers you get and if any mention this passage.

So we work it out with fear and trembling? Again, for what purpose?

We need to understand who God is going to deal out justice to and not be in that group.
2 Thes. 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

We can see in Paul's writings assurance and warnings. There are many warnings but for time I will post a couple.
Rom. 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

1 Cor. 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
I personally believe that the devil has deceived many. They do not harmonize the scripture but focus on the ones they like to hear.

I like the way Hebrews 10 puts it. It talks about confidence and full assurance, Heb. 10:19-22.
Then it says we should hold fast without wavering.
Heb. 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. That is up to us.

He then says if we don't hold fast we should be fearful.
Heb. 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

He then uses a good example from the old law to show how serious sinning is while being in Christ.
Heb. 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

How much of this faith is my own muscle and my own pleasing God?

My understanding is that our faith isn't all or nothing. We read of people who's faith is weak, growing and shipwrecked for example.

I understand our faith to be faithfulness. How faithful are we to God. Here Paul urges people to walk(faithfulness) to please God.
1 Thes. 4:1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

We are not perfect but if we walk(practice) righteous then Jesus' blood is applied to us.
1 Jn. 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
I believe this verse makes it obvious. The one who practices(lives) righteous gets Jesus' righteousness applied to him. The one who does not practice righteousness does not get it applied to him.

Anyway, this is my current understanding. I welcome your input.

 

[turbosixx]

2) What do I do with these verses? Romans 11:6; 4:2 Ephesians 2:8-10

I would suggest to you that the narrative of these verses are contrasting the law of Moses with the law of faith. In Romans, when he speaks of works he is not talking about works in general but a specific set of works. Those of the law. The first 11 chapters are dealing with the Jews and the law.

See here he's contrasting two different laws and specifies works as works "of the law".
Rom. 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

To prove this point that justification can be found outside the works of the law, in the next chapter he uses Abraham. Abraham was justified before the law and before circumcision.
Rom. 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

The Jews were having a very hard time, and rightly so, of not bringing the law and circumcision into Christ. As we see here:
Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”


As for Eph. 2:8-10. This passage says that salvation is not a result of works
We cannot be saved by works. What work or amount of work can someone do to earn salvation? Nada.

I would suggest this passage also implies that those who are saved will not be without works. I would welcome a passage or example of someone who was saved without any works.
Here is what I read about someone without any works.
Jn. 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Matt. 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Why was the one talent man cast into Hell.

I Tim. 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes Paul was a light to the gentiles as we're all the apostles. Jesus told them to go and preach the gospel to every creature in every nation, not to the Jews only! It was to the Jews first and then to the gentiles. Paul also did it this way, he went to the gentiles when the Jews rejected the gospel of God.

Acts 1

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

When Paul preached to the Jews, which of the 2 gospels did he preach to them? What if the were a mixture of Jews and gentiles, what would he do then?

Also, Peter too preached to the gentiles

Acts 10

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 11

And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying, I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So, the gentiles also heard the gospel through Peter, not only Paul.

There is one gospel, the gospel of God, for Jew and gentile. It was for the Jews first and then the gentile.

Romans 1

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

I can see you don't have a clue about rightly dividing the word of God.

Keep trying to mix up that oil and water, and you'll keep getting the same nonsense.

The Road to Damascus means nothing to you folks, does it? :nono:

 

[Lon]

That's more than a couple questions but that's ok because they are very good questions. I'm glad to give my current understanding and would love to better understand your view as well. I will address them one at a time as time allows. Sorry it's long but these are serious questions.

Thanks. For me, these were the questions (and a few more) that had me wrestling. The more we wrestle with scripture and God, than one another, the better.

What comes to mind for me is that God doesn't give us, and I believe expect of us, more than we can handle, 1 Cor. 10:13.
Matt. 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
So if God doesn't give us more than we can handle, then it comes down to a matter of will. We have no choice but to obey someone and I see only two choices.

Yes, but again, are we talking complete obedience? Is it just the 'act' of obeying that keeps us saved (and it seems salvation is the concern here, yes?) What is the scriptural rule of thumb you are thinking of?

There are many passages on assurance and I don't need to quote any here because I'm sure you know them well. Yes, we can be totally assured of salvation. I'm not saying you but when I hear peoples comments, they focus on those passages of assurance and in their minds they make it total assurance and thereby cancel out or don't understand or just ignore the warnings written to Christians.

I'd still like to hear a few of them :think:

For me, 'if' my salvation has anything to do with me, I've come to the conclusion I'm not that awesome. I mean, I do pretty well. I don't cuss. I mean, at all. I waited until marriage. I am a fairly decent role model for my children.....

Two things: 1) I hate that such a thing becomes a 'me' show. Is it Jesus in me? Well then praise Him. Is it me? Well 1 Corinthians 4:7 Philippians 2:13
2) I am convinced salvation is not conditioned upon how well I perform/obey, but upon Him Who saves. If I am NOT a new creation, ONLY heaven can help me. If I am? The gates of hell cannot stand. I'm convinced I cannot renew/remake myself in His image. Sin broke that and the Lord Jesus Christ's work necessitates that we recognize that the OT way didn't work. If any part of our faith goes back to 'obey' and works, I'm not hopeful. Moses, himself was kept from the promised land from a double hit. Okay, not 'heaven' but still, if he couldn't do that, I'm pretty sure I can't do this. Worse? I do pretty well with this obedience thing (or did I should say). When I was a teen and feeling pretty good about myself, I was running about an hour a day. Shortly after, in Bible college, I tried running with a friend. His jog was my sprint. I was in great shape, but there was NO way I was ever going to be able to do that. God made my legs too short for that. Running will never be but a hobby for me.

I love John because he tells us HOW WE CAN KNOW that we are saved. Those are his word, "by this we know".
1 Jn. 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

How? What does John mean? How closely? Didn't Judas walk REALLY closely? I'm not questioning John here as far as his meaning, I'm questioning. For me: "keeping His commands" isn't about me 'doing something to keep God. It is rather something God is doing 'in me' to keep me. I believe you read this and think "do this." I read this and think "this needs to be done, but Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 2:13 1 Corinthians 4:7

Let me ask it this way: "What must I do to stay married to my wife?" I suspect my answer is a lot shorter than yours :think:

This is the bible telling us HOW WE CAN KNOW we are in Christ. If we are keeping his word then we can be assured. Ask people you know how they know they are in Christ and see what kind of answers you get and if any mention this passage.

Good point. You are correct here, it doesn't say 'how you can be saved' but how you 'can know' you are. :up: I agree.

We need to understand who God is going to deal out justice to and not be in that group.
2 Thes. 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

How DO we obey good news? I like where this is going btw.

We can see in Paul's writings assurance and warnings. There are many warnings but for time I will post a couple.
Rom. 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

1 Cor. 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
I personally believe that the devil has deceived many. They do not harmonize the scripture but focus on the ones they like to hear.

I like the way Hebrews 10 puts it. It talks about confidence and full assurance, Heb. 10:19-22.
Then it says we should hold fast without wavering.
Heb. 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. That is up to us.

He then says if we don't hold fast we should be fearful.
Heb. 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

He then uses a good example from the old law to show how serious sinning is while being in Christ.
Heb. 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Lots to unpack. I will give you my preliminary unpacking: 1) I used to think 'warning' too, but have long since change to believe 'rule of thumb.'

For instance, I don't believe in John 3 the Lord Jesus Christ was telling Nicodemus to go born-again himself. It couldn't be done by him. I've come to see scriptures as 'conditions to be met' rather than 'warnings' or 'do this' a good much of the time.

In the same way that you right saw above that this is 'how you can know' rather than 'what you can or must do' I think we often read things like 'You! Fella right there! Go do this!" More often than not, I don't believe this is the case. James talks about faith without works as being dead BUT I am completely convinced no old creature can make new-creaturely fruit. The Lord Jesus Christ said briars could not produce good fruit.

2) As far as I am convinced: New creations produce new fruit. Old fruit produces and can ONLY produce old fruit/no fruit. For your contemplation and scripture surveys. :e4e:

My understanding is that our faith isn't all or nothing. We read of people who's faith is weak, growing and shipwrecked for example.

Catholics very much agree with you. In fact, they'd say you can't know if your saved. Only the Lord Jesus Christ, keeping tabs, knows, according to them.

I understand our faith to be faithfulness. How faithful are we to God. Here Paul urges people to walk(faithfulness) to please God.
1 Thes. 4:1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

Briefly, our difference is this: There is no 'how faithful' to me. It is an all or none proposition. 2 Corinthians 5:17 and either Ephesians 2:10 or nothing.

We are not perfect but if we walk(practice) righteous then Jesus' blood is applied to us.
1 Jn. 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
I believe this verse makes it obvious. The one who practices(lives) righteous gets Jesus' righteousness applied to him. The one who does not practice righteousness does not get it applied to him.

Anyway, this is my current understanding. I welcome your input.

Thank you for welcoming it. Here is the one verse that started me away from this thinking. 1 John 4:18 The rest of the verses I've given are and were instrumental to me coming to understand that I'm in His hands.

The carrot on a stick rewards system is me 'doing' and 'gaining.' It isn't relationship centered, to me. When I was looking at other examples: Matthew 7:23, the 'reward' system didn't matter at all. Here these guys WERE doing the things required for what they thought they were earning. In this case, the 'needed' thing was not even 'knowing' Him, but 'being known BY Him.' Can you do anything to effect that? :nono: The ONLY thing we can do is trust. There are scriptures that tell us specifically how we are known by Him. For me, there is no question that a new creation will BUT produce new-created works. James 3:12, yes, imho, even James, realizes there is no such thing as a new creation without good works. For me, His argument isn't 'produce fruit!' Rather, he is saying, (imho) "If Christ is in you, He is doing something!" Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 2:13

 

[Lon]

I would suggest to you that the narrative of these verses are contrasting the law of Moses with the law of faith. In Romans, when he speaks of works he is not talking about works in general but a specific set of works. Those of the law. The first 11 chapters are dealing with the Jews and the law.

See here he's contrasting two different laws and specifies works as works "of the law".
Rom. 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

To prove this point that justification can be found outside the works of the law, in the next chapter he uses Abraham. Abraham was justified before the law and before circumcision.
Rom. 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

The Jews were having a very hard time, and rightly so, of not bringing the law and circumcision into Christ. As we see here:
Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”


As for Eph. 2:8-10. This passage says that salvation is not a result of works
We cannot be saved by works. What work or amount of work can someone do to earn salvation? Nada.

Salvation: one time shot and we are somewhat responsible for keeping/maintaining it? One time shot and a done deal?

I asked about marriage. What if my wife were incapable of breaking a promise or a vow? What then, would I have to do to stay married? Anything? My estimation is that I just need to 'live' the married life now with my wife. That's it.

I would suggest this passage also implies that those who are saved will not be without works. I would welcome a passage or example of someone who was saved without any works.
Here is what I read about someone without any works.
Jn. 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Matt. 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Why was the one talent man cast into Hell

A single man, cannot be a married man. In becoming married, something new happens. If he remains single, he was never really married.

Does any man need special instructions from going from single to married? :idunno: I'm not talking about marriage counselling, I'm talking about, does he need to be told he needs to move in with her? Share house and finances? Etc? To me, scripture 'describes' the fruit of a new believer's life but does not 'demand' it. IOW, it is what is expected - a condition that should be met by a new creation.

Here to me is the hard thing: If you are NOT producing fruit of righteousness, then I agree with James: How is that possible? How can you be His if that ISN'T happening? I'm not seeing James telling you to go 'do' but to 'go BE.' It is the same qualification the Lord Jesus Christ called those He never knew: "Depart, I don't know you." IOW, the mark of being in Christ is: "Being in Christ" with all things therein pertained.

The mark of me being married is: "Being married." I don't rub my wife's back to 'be' married. I rub my wife's back because I 'am married."

I Tim. 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Not sure of the context you are looking for here. For me, this goes back to what I just said. "I take care of my wife, not to STAY married, but because I 'am married.' She is perfectly capable of taking care of this marriage herself if I become an invalid, for instance.

My argument: Not to 'stay' married or to 'stay' saved, but because I already am married and saved (respectively). In Him :e4e: 2 Timothy 2:13 1 John 4:18

 

[heir]

When Jesus came to earth, he came for those who already belonged to God by living faith.

Silly woman...
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus said when he is crucified then all could come to him to be saved.

Silly woman... The gospel that saves today (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) was a mystery during the Lord's earthly ministry (Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) and there's no getting around it.

Paul calls it Jews first then Gentiles.

Paul's fist sending was to the Jew first and also to the Greek during his Acts provoking ministry, but as shown over and over, the gospel that he preached was before a mystery and therefore is not the same gospel that was preached in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

 

[heir]

Did Jesus speak to the woman once he saw she was humble and she had faith? And was her daughter healed because of her faith? Or did Jesus walk away because she wasn't a Jew?

Oh he "spoke" to her alright. Why did He answer her not a word at the first? What was it that He told her after "he answered her not a word"? From the passage can you tell me why He answered her at all after answering her not a word? Does His finally "speaking" to her after answering her not a word and even healing her daughter that was vexed with a devil negate to whom He said He was sent but unto? Of course not (Romans 15:8 KJV)!

And in case you missed it, check out what the disciples said in there too (Matthew 15:23 KJV)! Why would they say that if the Lord or even they at that time were sent to Gentiles?!

 

[God's Truth]

Silly woman...
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You are badly mistaken. John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.


They were God the Father's and God gave them to Jesus. They were the Father's meaning they were saved.

Silly woman... The gospel that saves today (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) was a mystery during the Lord's earthly ministry (Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) and there's no getting around it.

The mystery was Jesus Christ the Son of God. lol

Paul's fist sending was to the Jew first and also to the Greek during his Acts provoking ministry, but as shown over and over, the gospel that he preached was before a mystery and therefore is not the same gospel that was preached in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

It is exactly the same one and only one. Jesus came with grace and was full of grace. Jesus taught faith. Jesus also spoke of the Holy Spirit that would be given after he died, rose again, and ascended to heaven. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be given to those who obey his teachings.

 

[marhig]

Oh he "spoke" to her alright. Why did He answer her not a word at the first? What was it that He told her after "he answered her not a word"? From the passage can you tell me why He answered her at all after answering her not a word? Does His finally "speaking" to her after answering her not a word and even healing her daughter that was vexed with a devil negate to whom He said He was sent but unto? Of course not (Romans 15:8 KJV)!

And in case you missed it, check out what the disciples said in there too (Matthew 15:23 KJV)! Why would they say that if the Lord or even they at that time were sent to Gentiles?!

What do you believe that the woman meant by this?

Matthew 15

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

And the disciples said that of the woman, because they were not yet filled with the Spirit and we're still judgemental. Jesus was filled with the Spirit and came as a light for everyone Jews first and then the gentiles. Bringing together all who believed in him both Jew and gentile breaking down the wall between them, making them one with him and the father, by the love and word of God in truth through the gospel through faith by the grace of God. Making all into one body in Christ.

And those born anew of God and circumcised of the heart by the spirit are the true Jews, those whose old life is taken away as they are being cleansed inwardly by the power of the Spirit through Christ. These were the lost sheep of the house of Israel now being brought in from both folds.

 

[marhig]

I can see you don't have a clue about rightly dividing the word of God.

Keep trying to mix up that oil and water, and you'll keep getting the same nonsense.

The Road to Damascus means nothing to you folks, does it? :nono:

Paul's encounter with Christ was amazing, but we have to have an encounter with Christ ourselves, and that comes through the Holy Spirit. And we are blessed with the Holy Spirit through faith and obedience to God.

No obedience to God, then no Spirit.

Acts 5:32

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him

 

[God's Truth]

What do you believe that the woman meant by this?

Matthew 15

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

And the disciples said that of the woman, because they were not yet filled with the Spirit and we're still judgemental.

I can hardly believe that you said something like that.

Jesus is the one who said not to give to dogs.

Jesus said that about that woman because she did not know God as she should by obedience.

God is our Father by our obedience.

We know God and God knows us by our obedience.

Dogs do not know their father.

People are dogs when they do not know God by obedience.

Jesus was filled with the Spirit and came as a light for everyone Jews first and then the gentiles. Bringing together all who believed in him both Jew and gentile breaking down the wall between them, making them one with him and the father, by the love and word of God in truth through the gospel through faith by the grace of God. Making all into one body in Christ.

Jesus came first ONLY for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

The dividing wall was only destroyed when Jesus died.

The 'dogs' are brought near through HIS BLOOD. That means WHEN HE DIED and shed his blood on the cross.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

The 'dogs' are brought near by Jesus' blood shed on the cross because it is belief in his shed blood that washes away sins.

The Canaanite people were sinful people not obeying God as they should.

 

[marhig]

I can hardly believe that you said something like that.

Jesus is the one who said not to give to dogs.

Jesus said that about that woman because she did not know God as she should by obedience.

God is our Father by our obedience.

We know God and God knows us by our obedience.

Dogs do not know their father.

People are dogs when they do not know God by obedience.


Jesus came first ONLY for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

The dividing wall was only destroyed when Jesus died.

The 'dogs' are brought near through HIS BLOOD. That means WHEN HE DIED and shed his blood on the cross.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

The 'dogs' are brought near by Jesus' blood shed on the cross because it is belief in his shed blood that washes away sins.

The Canaanite people were sinful people not obeying God as they should.

We don't agree on the blood, as I said you are looking at it naturally, God didn't need to come as a human sacrifice to appease himself of his own wrath to save us. That's nonsense, he's far above us for that and God can't die in any way. Jesus came to bare witness to the truth and he saves us by the gospel, by the ministry of reconciliation and God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, and those who believe and have faith in God and Christ are saved the grace of God. Death doesn't save anyone, life saves, death is darkness and those who killed Jesus we were under the power of darkness and God isn't darkness in any way whatsoever. And it says in the Bible that we are saved by the life of Christ. The death we are reconciled by is death to self. Jesus was dead to his flesh, and we too are to be dead to flesh to be reconciled to God through him, and it's by this death that we glorify God. That's why Jesus said follow me (below,) because he too was dead to self will and lived by the will of God, to glorify him.

John 21:18

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

I won't be discussing the cross with you anymore, because you keep bringing it up in most posts to me, it's like you want to argue and I'm not having an endless debate with you, I know it's the truth, and if it pleased not God to crucify Jesus then it was a sin and wrong. I don't believe as you do, if you want to judge me on that then so be it. Go ahead, but it's not up to you what happens to me, or anyone else, only God can judge any of us because only he knows our hearts.

And I'm talking about the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table, I'm wondering how heir sees that. What she believes it means.

Also, the women was humbling herself before Christ Jesus and showed her faith in him but it's what she said that showed her faith. You should know by now that I believe in obedience, without faith and obedience there is no salvation, every one of the apostles were obedient to Christ Jesus before they were blessed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Yes, but again, are we talking complete obedience? Is it just the 'act' of obeying that keeps us saved (and it seems salvation is the concern here, yes?)

The amount of obedience depends on each person, there is no hard and fast rule, but there are some guidelines.
The guidelines in Romans 14-15 speaks of how the person that is weak in the faith has a need for additional rules to obey in order to maintain a clean conscience.
Romans 14-15 also speaks of how the person that is strong in the faith does not need those additional rules to maintain a clean conscience, but warns them not to try to undermine the rules that the person that is weak in faith needs.
Ask yourself how much obedience you need to keep a clean conscience towards God.
After all, God judges us by our heart instead of by our outward appearance.

I am convinced salvation is not conditioned upon how well I perform/obey, but upon Him Who saves.

Yes, your salvation is not conditioned on how well you perform/obey, but it is conditioned on whether you obey and why you obey.
If you obey only to gain your salvation, you have failed.
If you choose to obey because of your love for God, you have passed the test.

For me: "keeping His commands" isn't about me 'doing something to keep God. It is rather something God is doing 'in me' to keep me.

Both of those are wrong ways of thinking about keeping His commandments.

Let me ask it this way: "What must I do to stay married to my wife?" I suspect my answer is a lot shorter than yours :think:

Think of how you typically feel when your wife asks you to pick up something from the store.
Is doing what she asked one of the things you must do to stay married or is it just a part of your relationship you don't give much thought to?
Is how you feel when thinking about "obeying God's commandments" the same or different than how you feel about doing what your wife asks?

I used to think 'warning' too, but have long since change to believe 'rule of thumb.'

I used the word "guidelines" but it comes to the same thing. :up:

As far as I am convinced: New creations produce new fruit. Old fruit produces and can ONLY produce old fruit/no fruit.

If that works for you, use it.
Albert Einstein's is supposed to have said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Changing what you are doing seems to be the same thing as a new creation producing new fruit.

Albert Einstein's famous line: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

There is no 'how faithful' to me. It is an all or none proposition.

Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "Life is a journey, not a destination."
Being faithful is more like being on a journey than an all or none proposition.
It is harder to return to being faithful if you stray far from it or if you stray from it for a long time.
King David strayed from being faithful to God's commandments, but he returned and received one of the greatest honors in the Bible when God called him a "a man after mine own heart."

The carrot on a stick rewards system is me 'doing' and 'gaining.' It isn't relationship centered, to me. When I was looking at other examples: Matthew 7:23, the 'reward' system didn't matter at all. Here these guys WERE doing the things required for what they thought they were earning.
In this case, the 'needed' thing was not even 'knowing' Him, but 'being known BY Him.' Can you do anything to effect that?

The carrot and stick (reward and punishment) does not work well for faith.
The guys in the story were doing what they thought were great things for God but they were neglecting to do what they were supposed to do, since Jesus specifically states that they were "workers of lawlessness" (DARBY).
The relationship with Jesus failed because of their works of lawlessness.
In Matthew 7:21, Jesus specifically states the thing that will affect your being known by Him: You will be known if you "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

[genuineoriginal]

Salvation: one time shot and we are somewhat responsible for keeping/maintaining it? One time shot and a done deal?

I asked about marriage. What if my wife were incapable of breaking a promise or a vow? What then, would I have to do to stay married? Anything? My estimation is that I just need to 'live' the married life now with my wife. That's it.

My argument: Not to 'stay' married or to 'stay' saved, but because I already am married and saved (respectively).

To use your argument, what happens to your marriage if you separate?
You moved away and no longer have any contact with your wife, refusing to accept any attempts she makes to contact you.
You know that she has a plan to move to a new place to live, but you don't know when or where.
When she moves, will you be with her in the new place?
When God makes the new heaven and new earth, will a person that abandoned the relationship with Him end up in His kingdom?

 

[musterion]

To use your argument, what happens to your marriage if you separate?
You moved away and no longer have any contact with your wife, refusing to accept any attempts she makes to contact you.
You know that she has a plan to move to a new place to live, but you don't know when or where.
When she moves, will you be with her in the new place?
When God makes the new heaven and new earth, will a person that abandoned the relationship with Him end up in His kingdom?

Once joined to Christ as His Body, there is no way He separates Himself from the believer, any more than you can up and walk away from an ear, hand or foot.

 

[God's Truth]

We don't agree on the blood, as I said you are looking at it naturally, God didn't need to come as a human sacrifice to appease himself of his own wrath to save us. That's nonsense, he's far above us for that and God can't die in any way. Jesus came to bare witness to the truth and he saves us by the gospel, by the ministry of reconciliation and God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, and those who believe and have faith in God and Christ are saved the grace of God. Death doesn't save anyone, life saves, death is darkness and those who killed Jesus we were under the power of darkness and God isn't darkness in any way whatsoever. And it says in the Bible that we are saved by the life of Christ. The death we are reconciled by is death to self. Jesus was dead to his flesh, and we too are to be dead to flesh to be reconciled to God through him, and it's by this death that we glorify God. That's why Jesus said follow me (below,) because he too was dead to self will and lived by the will of God, to glorify him.

John 21:18

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

I won't be discussing the cross with you anymore, because you keep bringing it up in most posts to me, it's like you want to argue and I'm not having an endless debate with you, I know it's the truth, and if it pleased not God to crucify Jesus then it was a sin and wrong. I don't believe as you do, if you want to judge me on that then so be it. Go ahead, but it's not up to you what happens to me, or anyone else, only God can judge any of us because only he knows our hearts.

And I'm talking about the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table, I'm wondering how heir sees that. What she believes it means.

Also, the women was humbling herself before Christ Jesus and showed her faith in him but it's what she said that showed her faith. You should know by now that I believe in obedience, without faith and obedience there is no salvation, every one of the apostles were obedient to Christ Jesus before they were blessed with the Holy Spirit.

You deny the truth; so be it.

Your explanation is ignorant.

You try to rewrite the Bible in a marhig kind of way.

You will have to suffer for that.

How dare I keep bringing up the cross, you say. How dumb. The Bible brings up the cross and the blood.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul's encounter with Christ was amazing, but

BUT, Paul wasn't obeying when the Lord met him on the road to Damascus, was he? He was busy arresting all those who believed in Jesus. But, the LORD chose Paul for this very purpose.

In fact, Paul was the PATTERN to those who came after.....Believe on HIM to everlasting life.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.​

Believing IS obeying. The obedience of faith. Saved by grace through faith.

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Once joined to Christ as His Body, there is no way He separates Himself from the believer, any more than you can up and walk away from an ear, hand or foot.

That is not true, but I understand why you would want to believe it instead of the truth that we can walk away from salvation before Jesus brings it with Him when He returns.

 

[glorydaz]

That is not true, but I understand why you would want to believe it instead of the truth that we can walk away from salvation before Jesus brings it with Him when He returns.

So the fact that we are CREATED IN CHRIST as new creatures....given the earnest of the Spirit means nothing?

 

[musterion]

That is not true

It is true but I don't expect a Mormon to believe it.