toldailytopic: The rapture. Do you believe it will happen? If so, when and how will i
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
You have not read my posts very carefully at all. I am not a pretrib rapturist. I said it was a lie from the pit of hell and a grand delusion. I also said that the Great Tribulation is 3 and 1/2 years, and the rapture occurs sometime before its end. The days will be shortened so that some believing flesh will survive the wrath of Satan's fury.
I said that for years just prior to the rapture believers will be imprisoned, tortured and killed. In other words we will suffer great tribulation, before the rapture and Christ's second coming which happen on the same day.
I do not know where the one Roman soldier who actually pierced Jesus's side is right this moment. I think however it is speaking about all those who in a figurative sense pierced Him. We all pierced His side with our sins.
Zechariah seems to be saying it is the descendants of the Jews-Israel, who will be alive on the earth, and awakened to the fact that their ancestors had Jesus killed. "Crucify Him they shouted, and let His blood be upon us and upon our children."
Zech 12:10 That is my answer.
I wonder how you will have the Roman soldiers that you think that this verse is referring to, and must be physically present, and living on the earth to witness the return of Christ? How do you do that? it is a good question and a problem that you have created for your theology. Look forward to your answer.
I understand what you're saying.
I'm sure Mr. Darby got a lot of stuff wrong.
Though Darby emphasized 'dispensationalism', and many are disturbed by the concept, the church for the first four centuries was predominantly 'premillennial/chiliastic', until Origen, Jerome and especially Augustine. Since Augustine derailed Chiliasm, the RCC and the Reformation Churches have assumed his eschatology. I think that one should at least consider other positions. Even the most esteemed teachers can be mistaken.
Even the great Reformed scholar Jonathan Edwards was a millennarian, though 'post', and he had a view of corporate Israel in the land being redeemed in the end.
Hold on a second.
First, not everyone who believes or have believed in a rapture believe in dispensawhatever.
Second, John 5:28-29 can be read to see two distinct resurrections. One is called the "resurrection of life" and the other "resurrection of damnation." Revelation 20:5 explains the difference. Those raised to the "resurrection of life" or the "first resurrection" reigned with Jesus (v.4). Verse 6 tells us that those who were resurrected here will be blessed. But verse 5 talks about those waiting for the "second resurrection," also called the "resurrection of damnation" in John 5:29. Revelation 20:11-15 talk about what happens here.
To better explain, for those who believe in a rapture (also resurrection of believers) it happens toward the end of the tribulation "at the last trump" or better located in Revelation 10:7 (the mystery mentioned in 1st Corinthians 15:51). In Revelation 16:15-16, we can see the end is near. The enemy is being gathered to Armageddon, and Jesus comes as a thief for those who were ready. Or like in Revelation 14:14-20, rapture=reaping of the harvest. Winepress trodden=Armageddon battle (or slaughter).
There is some truth to your criticism, for those who adhere to a pre-trib rapture position. As the world gets worse and worse, they become less concerned and involved in fighting against evil and improving the world, that they live in. After all they won't be here when the persecutions start and the Great tribulation is in full throttle.
When one realizes that they have been lied to about what the Bible says. That the rapture occurs after the GT, and at the second coming; then you can say as the Bible says....even so, even though we must suffer all these things, even so,come quickly Lord Jesus.
I am willing to endure, or die, during 3and 1/2 years of intense persecution, if it means the Return of Christ and the end of this Satanic world system and the ever increasing veil of tears, that this life has become to many of us.
If I had my druthers, I would that the antichrist be revealed soon, so that I know this world's pain would increase, but have its limit set at 1260 days.
I am ready for the surgeons scalpel without the anesthesia. My teeth are gritted. Let the pains of childbirth begin in earnest.
It is time to cut out this horrible cancer of sin and death. It will be all worth it to see Him return in glory, and rule and reign in truth and righteousness. "For the sufferings of this present age are not worthy to be compared, to the glory to come." Spoken by a man who suffered great tribulation while he was alive. Imprisoned, beaten, stoned, and left for dead, and eventually executed, the Apostle Paul.
Even the animals, and the trees and plants are groaning and longing for His coming, and even the rocks will cry out, at His return....................Maranatha!
Yes. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in; before the time of Jacob's Trouble.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Why aren't you looking for the Blessed Hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and Saviour Jesus Christ?
HisServant
New member
Why should we look for something, that according to scripture, already happened... to look for it would be a waste of time and a show of disbelief in God's promises.
If Christ came in 70AD, then some of those Roman soldiers would still be alive when He came.
Christ said that "This Generation" would still be alive when He returned.
Christ said that some standing there (30AD) would not taste death until He returned.
Christ said that John would be alive when He returned.
(John 21:22) Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”
Since you agree with this statement of Nang's. How do you reconcile this passage in Scripture?
John 14:1-3
14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, 2I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
To me the passage says that He will come again to take believers where He was then going. Since He was going to Heaven and not to earth. I don't see how you can brush by this passage by saying that there is only the resurrection of believers and final judgement left. This passage says that He is coming to take the believers.
The Bible also says that at the end of the millennium, satan will be loosed for a little while and then a war will take place.
(Rev 20:7-9) When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.
According to dispensationalists and "rapture" adherents, the 1,000 years happens after the "rapture" and 7 year Trib. Then they claim that satan is loosed and the battle of Gog and Magog takes place.
If the 1,000 year millennium is right now, then what is written in Rev 20:7-9 could be taking place right now.
He came in 70AD
I'm not going to try to work with that. I would have to shuffle the entire Bible. It will be interesting to see if AMR thinks the same thing.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
heir
TOL Subscriber
| toldailytopic: The rapture. Do you believe it will happen? If so, when and how will it happen? |
Yes, what many call the rapture will happen. The term does not appear in the Bible, but the event of being "caught up" certainly does!
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 KJV For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
When will it happen? When the last person whom God did foreknow believes the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).
Romans 8:29-30 KJV For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I certainly am!
Philippians 3:20-21 KJV For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
If He came in 70 A.D. it was the least recorded supernatural event of all time. History records the destruction of the Temple in 70A.D.
There is no record by the Church, or secular historians that Christ was present or appeared? And no record of all the dead in Christ being joined with those alive and being raptured.
The unraptured, John the apostle, is said to have died in the late 90's A.D. and wrote revelation in 95A.D.
http://www.therefinersfire.org/preterism.htm
oatmeal
Well-known member
What you said.
heir
TOL Subscriber
This is what will be left for you because you received not the love of the truth that you would be saved; how that Christ died for your sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 KJV And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
By far, the most intelligent thing you have said in some time. 3rd coming of Christ? You should be banned for intentional blasphemy on a daily basis. How pathetic.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Turning the page to and continuing with this event, which is the departure of the church.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,