Paul said the church would depart before Jacob's trouble, and the man of perdition is revealed.
toldailytopic: The rapture. Do you believe it will happen? If so, when and how will i
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Paul said the church would depart before Jacob's trouble, and the man of perdition is revealed.
'Trib' stands for 'tribulation', used by Jesus in:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation[thilipsis megas], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat_24:29 Immediately after the tribulation[thilipsis] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
and by the messenger to John in Revelation:
Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation[thilipsis megas], and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Though the word 'tribulation/thilipsis' is used of 'trouble' or 'pressure' in other places in the NT, these verses refer to a specific period of time, which many(including myself) refer to a time of trouble which is specific for the Nation of Israel in the land of Israel, but effects the whole world. This period of time corresponds to:
Jer_30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's[Israel's] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
and
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week[set of seven years]: and in the midst of the week[three and a half years] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
and
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months[three and a half years].
and some others.
The question regarding 'pre-trib', 'mid-trib', and 'post-trib' is whether the Church/Body of Christ will be taken out of the earth before the Tribulation, in the middle of it or at the end of it.
The answer to this question largely relies on whether one believes that the Church is a distinct entity from National Israel or not.
If the Tribulation has to do specifically with Israel and the Church is not Israel, then there is reason to believe from some scriptures that the Church will be taken away before the Tribulation.
Coffee is King
New member
Thank you for your awesome help, Steko. I appreciate it.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I always think of the raptor and how he snatches his prey. :chew:
some other dude
New member
toldailytopic: The rapture. Do you believe it will happen? If so, when and how will it happen? |
I believe there will be a gathering away, or caught up as 1 Thessalonians 4:17 states, the dead in Christ first then we who are alive in Christ.
As to when? I think that is like the second coming no one knows the hour.
How will it happen? Very quickly, to borrow from 1 Corinthians 15:52 type of an idea, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye kind of how ill it happen.
For me the important thing is to live for Christ and be ready and to carry on with our lives until that day.
As to when? I think that is like the second coming no one knows the hour.
How will it happen? Very quickly, to borrow from 1 Corinthians 15:52 type of an idea, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye kind of how ill it happen.
For me the important thing is to live for Christ and be ready and to carry on with our lives until that day.
MrDeets
TOL Subscriber
:shocked: godrulz is cool??
Jordan Fontenot
New member
1 Cor 15:52- quick
1 Thes 4:17-to the sky
2 Peter 3:10 burn burn burn
Yep it'll happen. As for specifics I don't think we need them, as the rest of 2 Peter 3 says "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat."
1 Thes 4:17-to the sky
2 Peter 3:10 burn burn burn
Yep it'll happen. As for specifics I don't think we need them, as the rest of 2 Peter 3 says "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat."
Jordan Fontenot
New member
I believe it will happen.
The promise.
John 14:1-3
14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, 2I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Who? Jew and Gentile believers
Ephesians 2:11-16
When?
Romans 11:25-27
The promise.
John 14:1-3
14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, 2I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Who? Jew and Gentile believers
Ephesians 2:11-16
When?
Romans 11:25-27
Matthew 24
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
There will be a rapture of which no one knows the time or day but God alone.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
There will be a rapture of which no one knows the time or day but God alone.
I had to make a change.
No such thing as a "rapture". You won't find the word "rapture" in the Bible.
It was invented by John Nelson Darby about 150 years ago. Darby based it on a dream by a little girl.
Dispensationalists have run with it ever since.
Jesus will gather to Himself angels, and the dead in Christ.
He then returns to the earth with the angels and these saints. Some of the angels then go throughout the four corners of the earth, and gather the living saints. They are thus "raptured," or snatched off the earth's surface, to temporarily meet the Lord and the other angels and saints in the air.
Jesus thus makes His return to earth visible, and known to everyone, everywhere, whether saints or pagans. He sets foot, or lands, if you will on the Mount of Olives, just as it was said that He would reappear, in the manner that He left. We all land with Him, and rule and reign from Israel, God's land.
So the rapture into the clouds, or sky is actually very short lived.
The reason this occurs is that for 3and1/2 years the antichrist has been imprisoning, torturing and killing anyone who would not take His mark and worship him. He is particularly ruthless and vengeful against the Jews and the Christians who will not do so.
Because of the immense pressure forced upon people to deny the true God, in order to survive, there will be a great apostasy from true belief in God.
This time of great pressure is called the Great Tribulation. It is a lie from the pit of hell, and a grand delusion, that the rapture will occur before the tribulation even starts.
No man will know the exact day or hour, of the Lord's return with and the gathering of the saints. But we are to know the season! It will be towards the end of the GTrib. The days will be cut short, otherwise no believing flesh would survive the fury of the antichrist governing system.
When those days of Satan's wrath are cut short, then God's wrath commences with His return to the Mount of Olives, with His saints and angels. His trumpet and bowl judgments, commence, upon all unbelieving flesh. Saints are safe in Israel, while the world is being judged and destroyed for its unrepentant sinners.
At Pentecost, in 33 A.D. Peter said that we are now in the last days, and he also said that a day is a thousand years. Therefore the second of these two last days, will end in 2033. Minus the 2 to 4 year error in our modern calendar. I expect the GTrib to begin 3 and 1/2 years prior to that.....approximately 2026......rapture around 2029.
By 2026 I suspect Islam will once again be ruling the world,{as it was in 1000 A.D. at the end of the first of the "last days"} and the antichrist will come from Turkey as their promised great Mahdi-Messiah. All of Islam will certainly worship him and thus try to force, with sword and guillotine, the rest of us, to worship Satan, as they do.
He then returns to the earth with the angels and these saints. Some of the angels then go throughout the four corners of the earth, and gather the living saints. They are thus "raptured," or snatched off the earth's surface, to temporarily meet the Lord and the other angels and saints in the air.
Jesus thus makes His return to earth visible, and known to everyone, everywhere, whether saints or pagans. He sets foot, or lands, if you will on the Mount of Olives, just as it was said that He would reappear, in the manner that He left. We all land with Him, and rule and reign from Israel, God's land.
So the rapture into the clouds, or sky is actually very short lived.
The reason this occurs is that for 3and1/2 years the antichrist has been imprisoning, torturing and killing anyone who would not take His mark and worship him. He is particularly ruthless and vengeful against the Jews and the Christians who will not do so.
Because of the immense pressure forced upon people to deny the true God, in order to survive, there will be a great apostasy from true belief in God.
This time of great pressure is called the Great Tribulation. It is a lie from the pit of hell, and a grand delusion, that the rapture will occur before the tribulation even starts.
No man will know the exact day or hour, of the Lord's return with and the gathering of the saints. But we are to know the season! It will be towards the end of the GTrib. The days will be cut short, otherwise no believing flesh would survive the fury of the antichrist governing system.
When those days of Satan's wrath are cut short, then God's wrath commences with His return to the Mount of Olives, with His saints and angels. His trumpet and bowl judgments, commence, upon all unbelieving flesh. Saints are safe in Israel, while the world is being judged and destroyed for its unrepentant sinners.
At Pentecost, in 33 A.D. Peter said that we are now in the last days, and he also said that a day is a thousand years. Therefore the second of these two last days, will end in 2033. Minus the 2 to 4 year error in our modern calendar. I expect the GTrib to begin 3 and 1/2 years prior to that.....approximately 2026......rapture around 2029.
By 2026 I suspect Islam will once again be ruling the world,{as it was in 1000 A.D. at the end of the first of the "last days"} and the antichrist will come from Turkey as their promised great Mahdi-Messiah. All of Islam will certainly worship him and thus try to force, with sword and guillotine, the rest of us, to worship Satan, as they do.
Me too!
For that matter, the LORD Jesus uses the same word 'harpazo' in this verse:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck[harpazo] them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck[harpazo] them out of my Father's hand.
The following verses also use the word 'harpazo':
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away[harpazo] that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force[harpazo], to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth[harpazo] them, and scattereth the sheep.
Act 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force[harpazo] from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out[harpazo] of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Though not directly related to the 'catching away' of the Church, these verses carry the same meaning of the word:
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away[harpazo] Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up[harpazo] to the third heaven. 2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up[harpazo] into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up[harpazo] unto God, and to his throne.
Shasta
Well-known member
I agree. The Word does not say we will be CAUGHT UP in a twinkling of an eye which would most certainly look like a disappearance. It says that "in a moment in a twinkling of an eye we shall be CHANGED." It is the metamorphosis that is instantaneous not the "catching up."
Jesus did not ascend instantly but slow enough so that the the crowd could watch. This was what made it such a dramatic sign.
Irenaeus (c. 125–c. 202)
When in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
Tertullian (c. 155–c. 225)
“As yet those whom the coming of the Lord is to find on the earth, have not been caught up into the air to meet Him at His coming” (TS, 55).
Caught up=Grk 'harpazo'=Latin/English transliteration 'rapture'
This is from a period which was quite a bit earlier than Darby, and Irenaeus is in direct discipleship lineage from the Apostle John.
Yeah, well....the opinions on this subject run the gamut. We all have to come to our own conclusions on the matter, based on what we find in scripture. Having studied the various positions, I've found that people have good arguments for all sides. I don't believe that any of the positions have a bearing on salvation and therefore are not a test of orthodoxy and I don't believe that there is enough scriptural evidence to have an absolute certainty on these matters.
However, I believe that someone can gain a reasonable degree of probability and arrive at a best explanation for the possibilities. I look for the view that has the most plausible explanation, once all the biblical data is considered. I can be wrong. I have before.
:idunno:
We'll see!