toldailytopic: Is the Muslim community doing enough to help thwart the actions of Isl

[Town Heretic]

Yeah... I mean... that's the thing.

Christians are generally the first ones to condemn other Christians when they do stupid things i.e., Ted Haggard, Mel Gibson, etc. etc. etc.

I think that's true, but it's a fairly recent (historically) development and one I suspect has more to do with the hand in hand relationship of the Christian faith with the growing protections of Western democratic ideas. I mean, look at the Thirty Years' War for a taste of what we were like before government sponsored protections were in place and cultural expectations had been modified.

One would think Muslims would be doing everything in their power to make sure the world knew that Islam is a peaceful religion.

I think a great many are. Some by publication, more by example.

Yet, all we can come up with is a few links on internet pages that even took you sympathizers awhile to find.

I don't know what you mean by sympathizer, but it took me a few seconds to find a number of links that illustrate a broader objection. I could string more together, but if you look at the ones I noted you'll find references to and quotes supporting that notion.

 

[horiturk]

no and they never will until they free themselves physically and mentally from their clerics influence.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I don't know what you mean by sympathizer,

By sympathizer I mean you. And Granite. Ya know... the ones defending Islam.

 

[Town Heretic]

By sympathizer I mean you. And Granite. Ya know... the ones defending Islam.

Then I object to the usage. The term has the connotation of someone in alliance with an ideology. I'm not allied with Islam. My defense isn't a defense of Islam, but a rejection of what seems to me an ill founded assumption/assertion born of the old ethnocentric demon coupled with a want of exposure that so often gets the better of otherwise reasonable men.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

By sympathizer I mean you. And Granite. Ya know... the ones defending Islam.

You're too kind Knight. One I would call a traitor, the other, well, atheism speaks for itself.

 

[Granite]

By sympathizer I mean you. And Granite. Ya know... the ones defending Islam.

Knight, all due respect, it took me about three seconds to find many organizations and groups dedicated to informing the public about Islam and how it's been perverted by those who use it as a tool of terror. And assuming that there is a "Muslim community" at large who is responsible for dismissing terror in the name of Islam everywhere it occurs is unreasonable (as much as it would be to believe that some "Christian community" at large needs to speak out each and every time your own faith is perverted and used by zealots to justify murder).

I'm not at fault here, and neither is TH or anyone else who speaks reasonably, if the American public at large is too lazy or disinterested in finding out if fanatics who blow themselves up on a bus are representative of their religion or not. (As Professor Henry Jones once noted, perhaps we should try reading books instead of burning them.) Push comes to shove, I consider Islam and Christianity to be two sides of the same coin, but even I'm not crazy enough to think that extremists and jihadists are representative of the faith any more than folks who blow up abortion clinics and shoot abortionists are representative of Christianity.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I'm not at fault here, and neither is TH or anyone else who speaks reasonably,

You say reasonable, I say... naive.

if the American public at large is too lazy or disinterested in finding out if fanatics who blow themselves up on a bus are representative of their religion or not. (As Professor Henry Jones once noted, perhaps we should try reading books instead of burning them.) Push comes to shove, I consider Islam and Christianity to be two sides of the same coin, but even I'm not crazy enough to think that extremists and jihadists are representative of the faith any more than folks who blow up abortion clinics and shoot abortionists are representative of Christianity.

That's a great way to prove my point, Christianity can (and does) condemn those few individuals who murder abortion doctors.

But can (and does) Islam condemn the thousands of murders occurring almost daily by Muslim terrorists? I don't see it. I wonder... what Islamic teachings are used to condemn the actions of these terrorists that are perpetrating on a daily basis?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You're too kind Knight. One I would call a traitor, the other, well, atheism speaks for itself.

TH is a good guy... but sadly he lusts after being looked upon as the "reasonable guy" and in turn is allowing the enemy to get exactly what they want... a defender who attempts to convince his neighbor that... we shouldn't be alarmed.

 

[ghost]

I don't know what you mean by sympathizer, but it took me a few seconds to find a number of links that illustrate a broader objection. I could string more together, but if you look at the ones I noted you'll find references to and quotes supporting that notion.

Okay TH, break this video down for me, and give me some evidence as to why it is not telling the truth, especially concerning taqiyya

3 things about Islam

 

[Nydhogg]

they don't want to comply with our laws (while we all have to get stripped searched by the TSA Muslim women walk right on through in their burkas)

We shouldn't submit to our own asinine laws either. The muzzies are not allowing themselves to be intimidated by TSA goons or other law enforcement thugs. Perhaps we should act like them and be as unhelpful as possible with all authorities at all times.

 

[Granite]

You say reasonable, I say... naive.

Your idea of "reasonable" seems to consist of demanding the impossible out of one point five billion people. The day any religion speaks in a single organized voice, lemme know. It's as unreasonable to believe the violence of the IRA spoke to Christians in America as it is to believe that the violence spawned thousands of miles away in the name of Islam speaks to any Muslims here.

That's a great way to prove my point, Christianity can (and does) condemn those few individuals who murder abortion doctors.

Not all of Christianity does...or did. Many rejoiced when Tiller was shot, others demand regularly that the Tillers of the world be shot as a matter of course, and others said he got what should be expected of a man in his trade. Hardly a unified voice speaking as one on the topic, in other words. You're comfortable expecting one standard of Christians when faced with murderous fanatics who hijack the Christian faith, but expect something else of Muslim fanatics who hijack the rhetoric of Islam. That's convenient but not consistent.

But can (and does) Islam condemn the thousands of murders occurring almost daily by Muslim terrorists? I don't see it.

I'd say, given the information at your disposal, that you're simply not inclined to look.

 

[Town Heretic]

Okay TH, break this video down for me, and give me some evidence as to why it is not telling the truth, especially concerning taqiyya

Sorry, I'll happily respond to any points you want to lay out, but I don't have the ability (with the wife and multi tasking) to entertain video. I can read and type quietly while watching "The Great Dictator" but that's my limit.

I can look at it later, as time allows, but I'm not entertaining a particular defense of Islam, only responding to a few points raised...and most of my points haven't been actually met on the field. Instead, I've been treated to suppositions about my motivation and sensibility, which is about as controlling of the facts as an opinion would be of the weather.

Knight asked why Muslims aren't protesting violence in the name of Islam. I illustrated that they are. He suggested Christians behave differently and I noted the rather recent development of that in Western society.

Any takers on my actual points? lain:

You're too kind Knight. One I would call a traitor, the other, well, atheism speaks for itself.

Given what you call argument often enough, you can only imagine my concern...well, pay someone to imagine it for you then. :thumb:

TH is a good guy...

You aren't half bad yourself.

but sadly he lusts after being looked upon as the "reasonable guy"

If I wanted to be admired I'd stick my finger in the wind and come to another conclusion. Given you described me as naive, the gentle end of my expectations where an opposing perspective is concerned, I'd say taking my current position is hardly in keeping with your assumption regarding my motivation.

No. I don't desire to appear reasonable and reasoned. I am reasonable and reasoned, both by inclination and training over years of serious, sustained matriculation. Some of it in schools even. A man who wants to push me off that hill had better come at me with something more than a willingness to question, however gently, my character.

I'm neither lusting nor naive, which is why I tend to advance reasoned, sustained positions even in the face of absurdly emotional screeds of the sort shouted out by ASCon, who has as much to do with objective analysis and critical thought as Mohammed did with a bacon sandwich.

and in turn is allowing the enemy to get exactly what they want... a defender who attempts to convince his neighbor that... we shouldn't be alarmed.

Where I think you have it backwards. The radical fringe of Islam desperately wants to assume the main and general condemnations of their religion that conflate their position with that main make their goal more readily attainable.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I'd say, given the information at your disposal, that you're simply not inclined to look.

That's the point. I shouldn't have to look. It shouldn't even be a point of contention, if Islam were truly concerned about what's happening all over the world they would make sure that everyone knew that they condemn the actions of the terrorists.

You will admit wont you... that terrorism by Muslims is a real problem that we are facing on a daily basis while a handful of Christian nutballs murdering a couple abortion doctors are on two entirely different scales, right?

 

[Nick M]

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[Nathon Detroit]

Where I think you have it backwards. The radical fringe of Islam desperately wants to assume the main and general condemnations of their religion that conflate their position with that main make their goal more readily attainable.

And what evidence do you have to support that wild (and dare I say contrived) assertion?

Furthermore... if that were true wouldn't that be all the more reason that mainstream Muslims should do everything in their power to convince the public that Islam doesn't promote these types of actions?

 

[WizardofOz]

It obviously makes no difference what individual Muslims say or do to denounce terrorism. As long as there are Islamic terrorists, many people outside the culture and outside the religion will continue to lump all Muslims together under a generalized, simplistic view represented by the extreme fringe.

1-2 billion Muslims in the world. If the extremists were the norm, we'd certainly know and would be seeing much worse than the reality. Which is, there is an extremist fringe inside Islam that too many allow to represent their view of the whole.

Go talk to a Muslim. See what they really think.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It obviously makes no difference what individual Muslims say or do to denounce terrorism. As long as there are Islamic terrorists, many people outside the culture and outside the religion will continue to lump all Muslims together under a generalized, simplistic view represented by the extreme fringe.

1-2 billion Muslims in the world. If the extremists were the norm, we'd certainly know and would be seeing much worse than the reality. Which is, there is an extremist fringe inside Islam that too many allow to represent their view of the whole.

Go talk to a Muslim. See what they really think.

Do you think Islam is a peaceful religion?

 

[ghost]

Are the Muslim women, who are bringing a charge against a Christian mother of 5 in Afghanistan, and calling for her execution for blaspheming Muhammad, extremists?

 

[WizardofOz]

Do you think Islam is a peaceful religion?

It can only be what its adherents make it to be. But at its core, yes it is. This is why Islamic scholars are the ones saying that people like Bin Laden have no authority and are subverting religion for personal power calling him a vigilante.

Islamic terrorists are more motivated by politics than they are theology. Christianity can and has been similarly subverted by such people.

 

[Town Heretic]

And what evidence do you have to support that wild (and dare I say contrived) assertion?

If I don't present any I'll be neck and neck with you, so it's an odd sort of bravado. Reason. Radicals recruit. The more the murderyer...to coin. Now if the West insists that Islam IS violence then it becomes easier to recruit. You want to guarantee the fringe controls the middle, insist there's no distinction and put the screws to them (see: post WWI Germany).

Furthermore... if that were true wouldn't that be all the more reason that mainstream Muslims should do everything in their power to convince the public that Islam doesn't promote these types of actions?

Such as? What aren't they doing? Do you go out every day and try to convince people that Christians aren't the superstitious, science hating, hypocrites we're so often portrayed as in the popular media? Or do you work at the issues one by one and let your actions speak to your convictions?