toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

[Town Heretic]

I know that these Muslims planning this mosque in defiance of the request from hurting people ...

That's absurd. Enabling an ignorant paranoia and treating it as though it were virtuous isn't a sign of compassion; it's a sign of something less desirable.

 

[WizardofOz]

You insist on dividing people into groups and I speak of the people suffering the results as ONE and in respect to them, to keep politics away from Ground Zero. There is no reason for me to single out Muslims.

You don't speak of the "people suffering", You miserably attempt to speak for them. They are not ONE. They are many, many people; dynamic individuals who vary in background and belief.

The bottom line is that you see these dynamic individuals offering the opportunity for political advantage. I rather see these people equal in their suffering which means Ground Zero should be free of political opportunism as with this Sharia mosque.

See how you are not even staying on topic? You say the victims of 911 are ONE. I said they are not ONE; rather they are individuals, some of who support this mosque. Then accuse me of using them for political advantage.:hammer:

Should the families/victims of 911 who support this mosque be considered or not?

It means that Rauf is offering the West peace and love. If it doesn't accept it, it will cause riots and killings in defense of peace and love.

Speculation on anyone's part who says so. Show me this "riots and killings" quote so I at least know what you are referring to.

Then we would agree that the developers are incapable of conceiving any non-political form of development.

No. I am sure they can conceive many things. It was originally going to be condos. We agree that the developers can make condos or an Islamic community center if that is what they chose to do.

There are people who don't want the mosque built so you decide that they are the right group to side with, grab your soapbox and speak out against it with them.

Who doesn't want this mosque built anyway?

70% of the people polled.

Very good. Now explain the relevance of your poll.

America has the choice of restoring the freedoms and the sense of individual responsibility the Constitution defends or further depending upon government to compensate for the loss of freedom by increasing laws.

What freedoms were lost? What laws were increased? Speaking of The Constitution, guess who it defends?

Give it time. It has only just begun:

http://blog.heritage.org/2010/09/02/the-real-impact-of-sharia-law-in-america/

His ruling was later overturned but the very fact that a judge allows a woman being raped is an indication of what we are capable of.

The judge was wrong. The ruling was overturned. I guess everything is alright after all. This means that Sharia is taking over the US? I don't see the connection. Is there a slippery slope somewhere that you're worried about?

Do you think he cares if he loses your trust?

Yes, I think he does. What makes you think he doesn't?

He wants to further Sharia law.

No, I do not think that he does. Do you have evidence that suggests otherwise? I have seen convincing evidence that he wants to be the imam of an Islamic cultural center in lower Manhattan. That's about it though.

If the mosque is completed it will not just be a slap in the face of those having directly endured 911 but it will be a sign of weakness and that the United States is ripe to be taken. It will probably lead to terrorists attacks since they will smell blood.

Or....Extremists will have more trouble recruiting because moderates can point at how America does not discriminate against Muslims. We already know you're a paranoid conspiracy theorist, so of course you will side with the most sensational scenario you can imagine.

Let me ask you this. If you were an Army Ranger in Afghanistan, doing your best to make friends with the local Islamic population or at least gaining their trust enough to believe that they won't try to ambush you and kill you, would you want this mosque built?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Hamid grew up with all of this. He knows the ropes and doesn't wear rose colored glasses.

He's entitled to his opinion. If I find someone who "grew up with all this" and feels the opposite, then what? You're stuck on this popular opinion thing.

9 out of 10 people prefer new honey mustard Wheaties cereal. I didn't care for it.

Why doesn't Imam Rauf denounce Hamas as a terror organization?

Maybe because they are also a legitimately elected government. We spread the democracy, it's hypocritical to whine about the results. Why don't you denounce the IDF as a terror organization? Not saying you should, but why haven't you?

He speaks of peace but defines peace as a state where people no longer oppose Sharia law.

He said that? Link please.

There is nothing wrong with lying to pursue this peace since that is his goal. This article explains lying.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/L/lying.html

The common Moslem belief is that it is allowable to tell a falsehood on four occasions:
1st, to save one's life;
2nd, to effect a peace or reconciliation;
3rd, to persuade a woman;
4th, on the occasion of a journey or expedition.

Number one is obvious. However an example of number two is lying to effect Rauf's idea of peace.

Number three is just Interfaith logic since men of all faiths would agree that these lies are essential. Number four could be considered gaining a foothold.

I can see the good sense in these types of lies but see no reason I have to fall for them.

:doh:
Are you so immature that you think some commentary from answering-islam.org says anything about this imam in New York? If I find a website that says all Christians are liars, then that proves that you're a liar, right?

All you saw were the words "Muslim" or "Islam" and you go into automated mode; dropping links from articles you found on the ol' web. You've got a lot to learn about source material and fallacious arguments.

When is amateur hour going to be over?

Courage is reaching out to those different than yourself. That is a type of courage that you cannot appreciate.

If it is an expression of strength, then it is beneficial.

And, courageous?

No she wouldn't.

Yes. She would. Your turn.

What do you think mysticism is?

I can tell you're young. You may yet grow up and begin to think for yourself. It's quite liberating.

Oh no! Another advocate of New Age critical thinking. One is bad enough but now it is spreading.

Please define your "New Age Critical Thinking" so I can put your nonsense to rest once and for all. Wouldn't a Christian mystic be a New Age Critical Thinker? She wasn't liberated by thinking for herself

New Age critical thinking is a devolution for critical thinking just as New Age spirituality is a devolution of spiritualism. Simone was not new age.

New age critical thinking begins with an emotionally acceptable conclusion and uses logic to defend it. Critical thinking is not an expression of a preconditioned conclusion but only seeks logical truth.

All I originally said was "grow up and begin to think for yourself" and saying so resulted in you labeling me an advocate of "New Age critical thinking".

Do you think for yourself?

My preferred pundits demand that I think for myself.

New Age critical thinker! You do think for yourself!

You are a New Age critical thinker?. Do we join a club now or something?

There is nothing to be outraged about since it is typical of politics

Or real estate development :idunno:

If nothing else, the mosque issue has verified me

I guess you're moving up in the world. Yay for you for being verified. Throwing a party?

It is good for some casual conversation, talking business, and perhaps coaxing some attractive women into bed in the spirit of peace.

Well! Getting verified is already paying dividends I guess. Wink wink. What's the young ladies name?

But for the person concerned with the human condition and its effects on humanity, then something far deeper and more sincere is needed

Maybe a second date would be a good place to start.

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

You're going to have to spell out how you see that. All I'm seeing is the right of men to be presumed innocent of the misdeeds of others set against an ethnocentric suspicion and emotional broad brush in the case before us.

As I noted prior, Catholics built an edifice within sight of Hiroshima's ground zero without the then normally race/culture phobic Japanese people raising half the alarm. And here we have no more connection between the two groups than you and I share with Justin Carl Moose, the self described "Christian counterpart of Osama bin Laden".

:idunno:



Except I think what we have here is entirely a matter of that spirit. No one is debating the letter.

I am not debating the letter because I am law-abiding. And I defend the rights of others.
The Imam has spoken many comfortable words regarding his intentions for this Mosque/Cultural center.
Public outrage needs to be addressed. It can grow like a cancer if it is ignored or made to feel that it doesn't matter.
I am not advocating pandering to the small-mindedness of parochialism. I am advocating an act of good-will between neighbors.
Maybe it needs more time. Maybe the Islamic mindset cannot grasp the reality and rationale of the mindset of Americans who so vehemently oppose this Mosque? And vice-versa?

 

[Town Heretic]

I am not debating the letter because I am law-abiding. And I defend the rights of others.

Right. I haven't heard anyone in this who didn't begin with acknowledging the right to build. That's why I suggested the whole letter/spirit notion wasn't really the problem. I think we're battling entirely over the spirit of a just social compact.

The Imam has spoken many comfortable words regarding his intentions for this Mosque/Cultural center.

He also came out against terrorism when many were hiding in fear of backlash against anything or anyone showing an Islamic face.

Public outrage needs to be addressed. It can grow like a cancer if it is ignored or made to feel that it doesn't matter.

I don't think anyone watching the near parade of angry people would mistake them for the sort lacking a sense of self importance or recognition. No underdog they.

I am not advocating pandering to the small-mindedness of parochialism.

I'd certainly accept that your sentiment and intent are entirely aimed at something other than what I observe in the rank and file hostility and sense of entitlement. No question. And, to go back to my example of the dangers in appeasement of any unreasonable sentiment or demand, I believe Chamberlain was an honorable man attempting much the same. It simply doesn't work. You give an inch to an injustice in the name of anything and injustice is like a dog coming for food. It doesn't care what you call it, so long as there's something in the bowl it can eat and grow stronger by.

I am advocating an act of good-will between neighbors.

And I think that won't be the effect or the perception if it happens. And eventually that dog will want something you simply can't in good conscience part with. But by then the dog won't be begging.

Maybe it needs more time. Maybe the Islamic mindset cannot grasp the reality and rationale of the mindset of Americans who so vehemently oppose this Mosque?

You could have said the same thing about the Freedom Riders as they moved across the South of my childhood.

And vice-versa?

There's something to that, but at the heart of it there's still a right and a wrong and, whatever the misunderstanding, the people demanding the mosque be moved are on the wrong side of it...and for the reasons set out here and prior.

 

[WizardofOz]

No churches around federal buildings

No churches around federal buildings

Aug. 26, 2010, Letter to the Editor Published on August 25, 2010 in Letter to the editor and Religion. 12 Comments Tags: mosque, Oklahoma City Bombing. I remember when I first heard about the Oklahoma City bombing and thinking right away it was a radical Islamic terrorist who had to be guilty. I was not alone, as most people in this country had the same reaction. It was also a shock when we learned it was actually a white/Christian man who had killed so many innocent people. The question is: how many Christian churches are within sight of the federal building memorial location and why aren’t they being forced to relocate to a more respectful distance. Robert Mason, Kingston Springs 37082

Should Christian Churches near the bombed OK Federal Building relocate?

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

Aug. 26, 2010, Letter to the Editor Published on August 25, 2010 in Letter to the editor and Religion. 12 Comments Tags: mosque, Oklahoma City Bombing. I remember when I first heard about the Oklahoma City bombing and thinking right away it was a radical Islamic terrorist who had to be guilty. I was not alone, as most people in this country had the same reaction. It was also a shock when we learned it was actually a white/Christian man who had killed so many innocent people. The question is: how many Christian churches are within sight of the federal building memorial location and why aren’t they being forced to relocate to a more respectful distance. Robert Mason, Kingston Springs 37082

Should Christian Churches near the bombed OK Federal Building relocate?

Did any Muslims sign the Declaration of Independence?
Is the question that "churches which already exist in the neighborhood ought to move?".
Has anyone suggested that existing Mosques ought to move?

 

[Town Heretic]

Did any Muslims sign the Declaration of Independence?

No, but slave owners did. About as relevant too.

Is the question that "churches which already exist in the neighborhood ought to move?".

Since you can make exactly the same argument to support their removal, why does that matter?

Has anyone suggested that existing Mosques ought to move?

Not yet. Then again, have you watched the news lately? CBS This Morning (or whatever it's called) had a piece on objections to mosque building in a Tennessee town and trouble country wide.

Man, that Ground Zero just keeps getting broader--in inverse proportion to the thinking on the other side, one imagines. :mmph:

I'm telling you, bybe, just give them Poland. They'll stop. It will be enough...woof.

 

[Nydhogg]

Donald Trump tried... they insulted him.

I was speaking over Skype with a Muslim friend of mine who lives in NY.

I asked him exactly that. And he answered: He didn't offer what the building was worth, and there are calls to stop mosque construction in ALL the US, and calls to deport all Muslims even if they're citizens.

They don't feel backing down and giving victory to that crowd is a good idea. Rights not exercised are rights lost.

I feel inclined to agree with him.

 

[annabenedetti]

Should Christian Churches near the bombed OK Federal Building relocate?

Did McVeigh ever claim the bombing in the name of God, or Christianity? I don't recall that he did.

 

[Town Heretic]

How do you know this?

So we have to have proof of innocence in this country now...and PRIOR to a bad act, no less...what nightmarish version of our Constitution is that found in?

Did you read an Arab book where it was stated 3 times.

Have you actually read the Quran?

The Koran, you know says to keep the peace and then it says to kill infidels and it is written in the Koran that the last thing it states is what will be followed. I found that on a Muslim site which I know I can't find again, it was a while back. They are allowed to lie 3 times to infidels to get what they want.

I can start a Muslim web page today and put whatever I want on it, true or not. Read the book if you're going to talk about the book. It's too important a discussion to have from a position of ignorance.

You're correct and they don't even attempt to mesh in,

Don't be obtuse.

which I've recently read that the home-Muslims are at this time doing most terrorist acts recently.

I know that magazine, "Uninformed Nutjobs Quarterly"...you should unsubscribe before someone mistakes you.

If you're going to say something like that it needs backing, facts, links, or it's an ignorant incitement to and justification for a thoughtless paranoia. As I said to Ps before he tried to prove me wrong, you're better than that.

Not when killing is involved. God says not to kill, Allah doesn't.

Are you kidding me? Deut. 32:42 or Numbers 31:17-18. Did someone rip the OT out of your Bible? NT? How about Luke 19:26-27. And have you read the Revelation? So what wasn't I providing? The same thing you aren't indicating (except without actual citations): context for my understanding. And that's the ballgame.

It's murder not killing that the Bible says is bad, not so with Muslims.

Cite to the Surah and verse...until you do that and demonstrate a level of understanding equal to the level of insinuation you're just sounding frightened, angry and unreasoned in approach.

Our founders were almost all Christians too, even the ones I've that weren't quoted the Bible often because it's a good book.

You left out slave owning, elitist, misogynists. It's all about the context...Now then, do you know what Islam says about the Book?

"3:3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel."

Ta-da...reading, it's even fundamentalist. oly:

Allah is not God, if he he sure wrote a different book the the ONLY God.

He is to them and their place of worship is dedicated to their understanding and belief. Or are you suggesting that only Christians get to build houses of worship because our faith is the true faith? If not, why on earth bring it up here and now?

You're right they did do more damage than they expected.

They sure did. They (the actual terrorists) have us shaking fists at those among us who have been our friends. That's a real dividend for them and you're helping them cash it in.

Most American choose one wife, Muslims can have 4.

lain: Not in America. Though there are Mormons that try it. I have no idea why anyone thinks that's a good idea.

Did McVeigh ever claim the bombing in the name of God, or Christianity? I don't recall that he did.

Did these Muslims ever claim to have supported the terrorists in the name of anything? :nono:

 

[WizardofOz]

Is the question that "churches which already exist in the neighborhood ought to move?".
Has anyone suggested that existing Mosques ought to move?

If a church wanted to open 2 blocks from the federal building nine years after the bombing, would you feel it was disrespectful for them to be there and support them relocating their proposed site?

Did McVeigh ever claim the bombing in the name of God, or Christianity? I don't recall that he did.

Did these Muslims ever claim to have supported the terrorists in the name of anything? :nono:

:thumb: Suddenly guilt by "association" is all the craze. And when I say association I mean people who have never met before but happen to be adherents of a small cult with only 1.5 billion members worldwide.

annabenedetti this is silly coming from a Catholic. If a Catholic blows up 2 thousand people in the name of God should we look at you differently? Perhaps suspiciously?

 

[annabenedetti]

Did these Muslims ever claim to have supported the terrorists in the name of anything? :nono:

That's not what I asked, is it? :nono:

 

[annabenedetti]

:thumb: Suddenly guilt by association is all the craze.

Good grief. It's contagious.

 

[annabenedetti]

Shoot, WoO. I can't keep up with all your post modifications.

 

[WizardofOz]

Shoot, WoO. I can't keep up with all your post modifications.

Sorry, I have to use the "preview post" function more often. :rain:

 

[WizardofOz]

Did McVeigh ever claim the bombing in the name of God, or Christianity? I don't recall that he did.

He was mad about Waco. So, kinda yeah, he did.

Either way, what's the relevance?

 

[annabenedetti]

He was mad about Waco. So, kinda yeah, he did.

Being mad about Waco isn't the same thing as killing in the name of God or Christianity, though. :idunno:

 

[annabenedetti]

If a church wanted to open 2 blocks from the federal building nine years after the bombing, would you feel it was disrespectful for them to be there and support them relocating their proposed site?



:thumb: Suddenly guilt by "association" is all the craze. And when I say association I mean people who have never met before but happen to be adherents of a small cult with only 1.5 billion members worldwide.

annabenedetti this is silly coming from a Catholic. If a Catholic blows up 2 thousand people in the name of God should we look at you differently? Perhaps suspiciously?

How so? Let's bring this back to your original comment about the Federal building and Christian churches. To follow that line of thought, you'd have to equate McVeigh's motives with the 911 Muslim motives. I don't think you can do that.

 

[Town Heretic]

How so? Let's bring this back to your original comment about the Federal building and Christian churches. To follow that line of thought, you'd have to equate McVeigh's motives with the 911 Muslim motives. I don't think you can do that.

I think you're dancing a little. Try my comments about abortion clinic bombings done in the name of Christianity. Should churches be pulled down nearby or congregations uprooted for the same reason? Of course not. In this country, as I noted to bybee, you're responsible for your actions, not the actions of some nut job or jobs who claim a kinship of any sort.

 

[WizardofOz]

How so? Let's bring this back to your original comment about the Federal building and Christian churches. To follow that line of thought, you'd have to equate McVeigh's motives with the 911 Muslim motives. I don't think you can do that.

I see a lot of similarities. Let's start here; why did the hijackers target the United States?

I think you're dancing a little. Try my comments about abortion clinic bombings done in the name of Christianity. Should churches be pulled down nearby or congregations uprooted for the same reason? Of course not. In this country, as I noted to bybee, you're responsible for your actions, not the actions of some nut job or jobs who claim a kinship of any sort.

TH you're breaking my rep machine.