toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

[WizardofOz]

You insist on dividing people into groups and I speak of the people suffering the results as ONE and in respect to them, to keep politics away from Ground Zero. There is no reason for me to single out Muslims.

You don't speak of the "people suffering", You miserably attempt to speak for them. They are not ONE. They are many, many people; dynamic individuals who vary in background and belief.

You want to keep this center away from any where near ground zero. Don't think that you speak for all people effected by 911 when you talk about what you want. What do September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows support?

I forgot....you don't count their "needs" for some odd reason.

I gotta include a quote from the above source attributed a guest comment.

Luke Dear media, I can't decide if you are dumb, evil, or ignorant. I could make a case for all three, but a black hole opens up and swallows me each time I try to wrap my mind around your writing. Stop calling it a mosque. It's a community center, just like the YMCA and the JCC uptown. This thing has a pool, a weight room and GASP – a performing arts center. There is also a prayer room. The building is open to the public and frankly, I'm looking forward to getting a membership so I can join the pool. I like swimming, but there isn't one close to my apartment. Since I work 3 blocks away from Park Place, this thing is going to rock. Thanks, Sane people

:BRAVO: Brilliant

The rejection of Sharia Law was preempted with The Constitution. The result is precedent and rule by law not by the wishes of any group.

This has nothing to do with it. The developers now have staked their claim and as Rauf said, any attempt to move the mosque could result in retaliation.

What does his speculation have to do with Sharia law? You are having trouble staying on topic.

Can you conceive of any non-political form of development?

Sure, but I also don't own the property. What difference do my development ideas make?

How you can label those suffering the results of 911 and protesting the Sharia mosque, as a mob? There is no way to respond to something so callous.

That's how you keep framing the debate. There are people who don't want the mosque built so you decide that they are the right group to side with, grab your soapbox and speak out against it with them.

Who doesn't want this mosque built anyway?

What people should do is one thing, but as you suggest, we are incapable of it and need to lose freedom in preference to being governed by increasing laws.

What you think people should do is one thing.
No one is talking about losing freedom or increasing the law.

The same "rights" I support are what prevents your worst nightmare from coming true.

No. The only thing that can prevent the coming nightmare is the voluntary recognition of the balance between OBLIGATIONS and rights. Increasing secularism has deprived us of this awareness so societyjust demands "rights."

If you're afraid of Sharia law then be happy that we have the law that we have which prevents Sharia law from becoming the law inside the United States.

The same constitution that allows these men to build their mosque also prevents you from being subjected to Sharia Law.

Neat, isn't it?

And what will you do when it is proven that it is not the case? You are a blind believer so prefer wonderful platitudes to reality. How will you handle reality?

If he doesn't live up to his word? Then he has lost my trust. But at least he has said what he has so that we may hold him to his words. I prefer this than to his remaining silent. If he is talking about bridging the divide between religions and fostering peace, then I support him fully.

If you think he's lying, then make some predictions. What is the worst case scenario that you can envision when this mosque is completed?

Hamid understands the Sharia agenda. Anyone understanding the agenda can understand the intent of the Ground Zero mosque.

The "Sharia agenda"? Hamid simply believes what you believe, that is all. You both wear similar tinfoil hats and fear bogymen.

Mr. Rauf has spoken out against the very type of Islamic bogyman that you and Mr. Hamid fear. That is why you should support his efforts. He's actually on your side and the very type of ally our nation needs and actively seek overseas.

People like Simone invite us to take off our rose colored glasses if our hearts are called to the experience of "meaning." Simone invites us to experience real hope and to inwardly profit from coming to grips with our misery. They have need and courage that you cannot appreciate.

Courage is reaching out to those different than yourself. That is a type of courage that you cannot appreciate.

Simone Weil was a mystic. Odds are, she would support this mosque. I bet you've never considered where your hero would stand on this issue. :think:

Oh no! Another advocate of New Age critical thinking. One is bad enough but now it is spreading.

Please define your "New Age Critical Thinking" so I can put your nonsense to rest once and for all. Wouldn't a Christian mystic be a New Age Critical Thinker? She wasn't liberated by thinking for herself?

You're just another young and naive idealist who is very obviously brainwashed by what your preferred pundits tell you to think. I am quite certain that you were not outraged until someone told you that you should be.

 

[drbrumley]

You're just another young and naive idealist who is very obviously brainwashed by what your preferred pundits tell you to think. I am quite certain that you were not outraged until someone told you that you should be.

We were in his shoes at one point in our lives.

 

[WizardofOz]

We were in his shoes at one point in our lives.

I don't deny it

 

[zoo22]

I don't think this has been posted... Newsweek, but interesting article:

Newsweek - The Taliban vs. the Mosque

Taliban officials know it’s sacrilegious to hope a mosque will not be built, but that’s exactly what they’re wishing for: the success of the fiery campaign to block the proposed Islamic cultural center and prayer room near the site of the Twin Towers in lower Manhattan. “By preventing this mosque from being built, America is doing us a big favor,” Taliban operative Zabihullah tells NEWSWEEK. (Like many Afghans, he uses a single name.) “It’s providing us with more recruits, donations, and popular support.” ...

Continued

Makes so much sense to me. I mean, of course I think it's all senseless, but this reaction makes sense to me.

 

[Nick_A]

You don't speak of the "people suffering", You miserably attempt to speak for them. They are not ONE. They are many, many people; dynamic individuals who vary in background and belief.

You want to keep this center away from any where near ground zero. Don't think that you speak for all people effected by 911 when you talk about what you want. What do September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows support?

I forgot....you don't count their "needs" for some odd reason.

I gotta include a quote from the above source attributed a guest comment.

Luke Dear media, I can't decide if you are dumb, evil, or ignorant. I could make a case for all three, but a black hole opens up and swallows me each time I try to wrap my mind around your writing. Stop calling it a mosque. It's a community center, just like the YMCA and the JCC uptown. This thing has a pool, a weight room and GASP – a performing arts center. There is also a prayer room. The building is open to the public and frankly, I'm looking forward to getting a membership so I can join the pool. I like swimming, but there isn't one close to my apartment. Since I work 3 blocks away from Park Place, this thing is going to rock. Thanks, Sane people

:BRAVO: Brilliant



What does his speculation have to do with Sharia law? You are having trouble staying on topic.



Sure, but I also don't own the property. What difference do my development ideas make?



That's how you keep framing the debate. There are people who don't want the mosque built so you decide that they are the right group to side with, grab your soapbox and speak out against it with them.

Who doesn't want this mosque built anyway?



What you think people should do is one thing.
No one is talking about losing freedom or increasing the law.



If you're afraid of Sharia law then be happy that we have the law that we have which prevents Sharia law from becoming the law inside the United States.

The same constitution that allows these men to build their mosque also prevents you from being subjected to Sharia Law.

Neat, isn't it?



If he doesn't live up to his word? Then he has lost my trust. But at least he has said what he has so that we may hold him to his words. I prefer this than to his remaining silent. If he is talking about bridging the divide between religions and fostering peace, then I support him fully.

If you think he's lying, then make some predictions. What is the worst case scenario that you can envision when this mosque is completed?



The "Sharia agenda"? Hamid simply believes what you believe, that is all. You both wear similar tinfoil hats and fear bogymen.

Mr. Rauf has spoken out against the very type of Islamic bogyman that you and Mr. Hamid fear. That is why you should support his efforts. He's actually on your side and the very type of ally our nation needs and actively seek overseas.



Courage is reaching out to those different than yourself. That is a type of courage that you cannot appreciate.

Simone Weil was a mystic. Odds are, she would support this mosque. I bet you've never considered where your hero would stand on this issue. :think:



Please define your "New Age Critical Thinking" so I can put your nonsense to rest once and for all. Wouldn't a Christian mystic be a New Age Critical Thinker? She wasn't liberated by thinking for herself?

You're just another young and naive idealist who is very obviously brainwashed by what your preferred pundits tell you to think. I am quite certain that you were not outraged until someone told you that you should be.

You don't speak of the "people suffering", You miserably attempt to speak for them. They are not ONE. They are many, many people; dynamic individuals who vary in background and belief.

The bottom line is that you see these dynamic individuals offering the opportunity for political advantage. I rather see these people equal in their suffering which means Ground Zero should be free of political opportunism as with this Sharia mosque.

What does his speculation have to do with Sharia law? You are having trouble staying on topic.

It means that Rauf is offering the West peace and love. If it doesn't accept it, it will cause riots and killings in defense of peace and love.

Sure, but I also don't own the property. What difference do my development ideas make?

Then we would agree that the developers are incapable of conceiving any non-political form of development.

That's how you keep framing the debate. There are people who don't want the mosque built so you decide that they are the right group to side with, grab your soapbox and speak out against it with them.

Who doesn't want this mosque built anyway?

70% of the people polled.

What you think people should do is one thing.
No one is talking about losing freedom or increasing the law.

Nothing stays the same. Everything is changing. America has the choice of restoring the freedoms and the sense of individual responsibility the Constitution defends or further depending upon government to compensate for the loss of freedom by increasing laws.

Now that we know that the concept of "We the People" has been devalued into "We the Great Unwashed," we know which way it is going.

If you're afraid of Sharia law then be happy that we have the law that we have which prevents Sharia law from becoming the law inside the United States.

The same constitution that allows these men to build their mosque also prevents you from being subjected to Sharia Law.

Neat, isn't it?

Give it time. It has only just begun:

http://blog.heritage.org/2010/09/02/the-real-impact-of-sharia-law-in-america/

The defendant’s Imam testified that a wife must comply with her husband’s sexual demands and he refused to answer whether, under Islamic law, a husband must stop his sexual advances on his wife if she says “no.”

The trial judge found that most of the criminal acts were indeed proved, but nonetheless denied the permanent retraining order. This judge held that the defendant could not be held responsible for the violent sexual assaults of his wife because he did not have the specific intent to sexually assault his wife, and because his actions were “consistent with his [religious] practices.” In other words, the judge refused to issue the permanent restraining order because under Sharia law, this Muslim husband had a “right” to rape his wife.

His ruling was later overturned but the very fact that a judge allows a woman being raped is an indication of what we are capable of.

If he doesn't live up to his word? Then he has lost my trust. But at least he has said what he has so that we may hold him to his words. I prefer this than to his remaining silent. If he is talking about bridging the divide between religions and fostering peace, then I support him fully.

If you think he's lying, then make some predictions. What is the worst case scenario that you can envision when this mosque is completed?

Do you think he cares if he loses your trust? He wants to further Sharia law.

If the mosque is completed it will not just be a slap in the face of those having directly endured 911 but it will be a sign of weakness and that the United States is ripe to be taken. It will probably lead to terrorists attacks since they will smell blood.

The "Sharia agenda"? Hamid simply believes what you believe, that is all. You both wear similar tinfoil hats and fear bogymen.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Hamid grew up with all of this. He knows the ropes and doesn't wear rose colored glasses.

Mr. Rauf has spoken out against the very type of Islamic bogyman that you and Mr. Hamid fear. That is why you should support his efforts. He's actually on your side and the very type of ally our nation needs and actively seek overseas.

Why doesn't Imam Rauf denounce Hamas as a terror organization? He speaks of peace but defines peace as a state where people no longer oppose Sharia law. There is nothing wrong with lying to pursue this peace since that is his goal. This article explains lying.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/L/lying.html

The common Moslem belief is that it is allowable to tell a falsehood on four occasions:
1st, to save one's life;
2nd, to effect a peace or reconciliation;
3rd, to persuade a woman;
4th, on the occasion of a journey or expedition.

Number one is obvious. However an example of number two is lying to effect Rauf's idea of peace.

Number three is just Interfaith logic since men of all faiths would agree that these lies are essential. Number four could be considered gaining a foothold.

I can see the good sense in these types of lies but see no reason I have to fall for them.

Courage is reaching out to those different than yourself. That is a type of courage that you cannot appreciate.

It doesn't take courage. It depends upon ones aim for reaching out. If it is an expression of weakness, then it is dangerous. If it is an expression of strength, then it is beneficial.

Simone Weil was a mystic. Odds are, she would support this mosque. I bet you've never considered where your hero would stand on this issue.

No she wouldn't.

Please define your "New Age Critical Thinking" so I can put your nonsense to rest once and for all. Wouldn't a Christian mystic be a New Age Critical Thinker? She wasn't liberated by thinking for herself?

New Age critical thinking is a devolution for critical thinking just as New Age spirituality is a devolution of spiritualism. Simone was not new age.

New age critical thinking begins with an emotionally acceptable conclusion and uses logic to defend it. Critical thinking is not an expression of a preconditioned conclusion but only seeks logical truth.

You're just another young and naive idealist who is very obviously brainwashed by what your preferred pundits tell you to think. I am quite certain that you were not outraged until someone told you that you should be.

My preferred pundits demand that I think for myself. For example:

In "Sketch of Contemporary Social Life" (1934), Weil develops the theme of collectivism as the trajectory of modern culture.

"Never has the individual been so completely delivered up to a blind collectivity, and never have men been so less capable, not only of subordinating their actions to their thoughts, but even of thinking."

Nothing cutsey pooh here. The point is that even though we believe that we do, we have to learn how to think.

There is nothing to be outraged about since it is typical of politics but it is good to verify by experience. If nothing else, the mosque issue has verified me that Interfaith is meaningless. It is good for some casual conversation, talking business, and perhaps coaxing some attractive women into bed in the spirit of peace. But for the person concerned with the human condition and its effects on humanity, then something far deeper and more sincere is needed

 

[Nick_A]

I don't think this has been posted... Newsweek, but interesting article:

Newsweek - The Taliban vs. the Mosque



Makes so much sense to me. I mean, of course I think it's all senseless, but this reaction makes sense to me.

Do you believe if Imam Rauf announced that in the spirit of sensivity for and unity with those that suffered the effects of 911 we've decided to build at another location, it would inspire people to become terrorists? If it does, what does that say about cooperation?

 

[Town Heretic]

I'd say we should have compassion for the victims of 9/11 and their families. It doesn't follow that we should aid and abet an irrational response aimed at those equally innocent of any wrong doing. To suggest the mosque is inappropriate is to suggest the inference between the event and every Muslim is reasonable.

And if we believe that, ladies and gentlemen, then we mistake ignorance for a virtue.

 

[zoo22]

Do you believe if Imam Rauf announced that in the spirit of sensivity for and unity with those that suffered the effects of 911 we've decided to build at another location, it would inspire people to become terrorists? If it does, what does that say about cooperation?

I don't know, but I imagine that at this point, there has been enough of a foundation built up through the controversy that not building the community center/mosque could easily be used and manipulated to exemplify America's intolerance towards Muslims in recruiting terrorists. I think if it had been handled differently by people who didn't want it there, that might not be the case. People turned it into such a huge angry ordeal. It became very anti-Muslim. Nutter Jones clearly made it all much, much worse. I think it would exemplify America's intolerance if it were moved now, though of course I would condemn anyone who used that in the manner that extremists likely would.

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

I don't know, but I imagine that at this point, there has been enough of a foundation built up through the controversy that not building the community center/mosque could easily be used and manipulated to exemplify America's intolerance towards Muslims in recruiting terrorists. I think if it had been handled differently by people who didn't want it there, that might not be the case. People turned it into such a huge angry ordeal. It became very anti-Muslim. Nutter Jones clearly made it all much, much worse. I think it would exemplify America's intolerance if it were moved now, though of course I would condemn anyone who used that in the manner that extremists likely would.

Perhaps, it is honest to show that in the face of provocation, American's can be intolerant, just as intolerant as the flag burning Muslim nutters around the world?

 

[zoo22]

Perhaps, it is honest to show that in the face of provocation, American's can be intolerant, just as intolerant as the flag burning Muslim nutters around the world?

I hope not. That's not who I want to be. That said, I think it's okay and often important to be intolerant.

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

I'd say we should have compassion for the victims of 9/11 and their families. It doesn't follow that we should aid and abet an irrational response aimed at those equally innocent of any wrong doing. To suggest the mosque is inappropriate is to suggest the inference between the event and every Muslim is reasonable.

And if we believe that, ladies and gentlemen, then we mistake ignorance for a virtue.

I have not heard anyone say that the "Mosque/Community Center" is inappropriate? It is the "site" that is, at this time, considered inappropriate by many.
I defend the freedom to practice one's religion within the parameters of the law of the land. If this Mosque/Community Center" is built then so be it.
It will then be a red flag for disgruntled yokels who may be provoked enough to behave as terrorists.
This could be avoided by an act of appeasement.
On the other hand, man's propensity for violence seems to know no bounds.

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

I hope not. That's not who I want to be. That said, I think it's okay and often important to be intolerant.

Sadly, the person's who attempt to preserve the status quo through the use of violence can be found in every country.

 

[chrysostom]

I hope not. That's not who I want to be. That said, I think it's okay and often important to be intolerant.

in Europe where they tolerate homosexuals

they now have to tolerate Muslims who don't

guess who wins this one

 

[Nydhogg]

I think it's okay and often important to be intolerant.

You hit the nail right on the head. It's obvious that showing ANY tolerance to those that want to rule you, oppress you, or boss you around is futile and self-defeating.

Those who want to govern your life should be shown the business end of a rifle, not "tolerance".


As for the muzzies and their mosque, let them build. It's their land, after all. If someone doesn't want them to build on their own land, let him put his money where his mouth is and buy the land from them.

 

[Nick_A]

I don't know, but I imagine that at this point, there has been enough of a foundation built up through the controversy that not building the community center/mosque could easily be used and manipulated to exemplify America's intolerance towards Muslims in recruiting terrorists. I think if it had been handled differently by people who didn't want it there, that might not be the case. People turned it into such a huge angry ordeal. It became very anti-Muslim. Nutter Jones clearly made it all much, much worse. I think it would exemplify America's intolerance if it were moved now, though of course I would condemn anyone who used that in the manner that extremists likely would.

Why do you think moving the Sharia mosque would exemplify America's intolerance rather than Muslim tolerance and consideration for the needs of others in the spirit of Imam Rauf's mission of peace?

 

[Nydhogg]

If someone wants the muslims to build elsewhere, there's one option: To buy the land from them.

It's that simple. They own that land. They owe nothing to American public opinion. We don't live in a mob rule democracy, but in a Republic.

Someone wants them not to build there? The money where the mouth is.

 

[Town Heretic]

I have not heard anyone say that the "Mosque/Community Center" is inappropriate? It is the "site" that is, at this time, considered inappropriate by many.

:nono: No one is suggesting the "site" be moved, bb. That means something else must be for the spot, two blocks removed instead of the four another mosque occupies...

I defend the freedom to practice one's religion within the parameters of the law of the land. If this Mosque/Community Center" is built then so be it.

I think it's one of the things that's emblematic of our social compact.

It will then be a red flag for disgruntled yokels who may be provoked enough to behave as terrorists.

That sort will find a flag any ol where.

This could be avoided by an act of appeasement.

Said Neville Chamberlain.

On the other hand, man's propensity for violence seems to know no bounds.

Ain't that the truth...:sigh:

 

[bybee]

Oooooh boy!

Oooooh boy!

:nono: No one is suggesting the "site" be moved, bb. That means something else must be for the spot, two blocks removed instead of the four another mosque occupies...



I think it's one of the things that's emblematic of our social compact.


That sort will find a flag any ol where.


Said Neville Chamberlain.


Ain't that the truth...:sigh:

That smarts! Neville Chamberlain?
I respectfully suggest that you are not talking apples and apples here.

 

[Ps82]

How do I feel about the mosque at ground zero?

I think it reveals the height of the insensitivity and rudeness to which the Muslims will blatantly go. It reveals their regard for our intellect and common sense and shows their disregard for our heartfelt losses.

I think it was personally foolish for the pastor in Florida to threaten to burn the Koran ... but he has, in his own way, revealed the extreme two-face-ness of the Muslims. I pray for his safety from these evil out of control human beings, who have proclaimed to be enemies of Christ and his people.

Because, yes, it is wrong for one faith to burn the holy book of another religion ... but it is just as wrong (and in the same way) for people to build a religious place in honor of the faith of the enemies who killed thousands of our citizens on the site of 911.

Their wanting to do this has rekindled my awareness of what motivates the hearts of Muslims... regarding our people.

What ever happens with their building plans ... it is a divisive project that will NOT lead to any peace between our peoples.

 

[Ps82]

If someone wants the muslims to build elsewhere, there's one option: To buy the land from them.

It's that simple. They own that land. They owe nothing to American public opinion. We don't live in a mob rule democracy, but in a Republic.

Someone wants them not to build there? The money where the mouth is.

Donald Trump tried... they insulted him.
The Muslims have set up this controversial situation ... now they persist with their disregard of our citizens ... and they even want to blame us for our heart felt feelings of not wanting them to build this.

Let's, at least, not prove them to be correct about our stupidity and cowardness... by humbly bowing to their will. They may build it under our laws for freedom of religion, but they prove to the world what evil is in their hearts. Let their project stand in our sight for the reminder of their purposes among us.