toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

[Nick_A]

It looks like the Ground Zero Mosque controversy may end up in court. I hope it does since I believe it will reveal some truths about what is behind the effort to build this "cultural center" that politics and feelgoodism refuses to consider.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=201377

..................Klayman plans a news conference about the legal undertaking Friday morning at 10 a.m. Eastern at Liberty Park near New York's Ground Zero site, where nearly 3,000 Americans died at the hands of Islamic radicals in 2001.

The filing alleges that those behind the mosque project are "front persons and in charge of operations for interests tied to terrorism."

Among the defendants named are the Muslim imam pushing the project, Feisal Abdul Rauf, Cordoba House/Park 51, Cordoba Initiative and Soho Properties.

"On information and belief, defendants Feisal and Cordoba House are believers in radical Islam and its jihad against America," the filing stated.

It said the Islamic Society of North America, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood "have ties and affiliations with the defendants."

It also alleges that while Feisal's book is called "What's Right with Islam is What's Right with America" in English, it is called "A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11" in Arabic.

It also alleges Feisal has stated, "United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened" on 9/11.

It is known, the claim states, "that al-Qaida and other terrorist organizations like to and do return to the 'scene' of prior terror attacks, to show that they can continue their campaign with impunity, thereby instilling greater terror and severe emotional distress on the populace. That is why the World Trade Center was attacked more than once and why assets and persons at Ground Zero are likely to be attacked again."

"It is also why the Ground Zero mosque [supporters] want to put an Islamic center specifically at that location – in order to show the world that 'they' can do it again … and to perpetrate continuing and heightened psychological terror on the victims," the case says.

The mosque project would be a "nuisance" and a "terror risk" and the discussion about it already has produced "illness" in the lead plaintiff, the case said, including "intense migraines, back pains, neck pains" and other symptoms.

Klayman reported the case, seeking hundreds of millions of dollars in damages, also requests class action status. It was filed in the Supreme Court of New York in Manhattan.

He said the lawsuit rests not upon an attack on Islam but rather "on harsh and compelling national security realities."

"Even President Obama and Mayor Michael Bloomberg have been forced to concede that terrorists are prone to again attack the people of New York City at Ground Zero, and that reality and the public outcry it engendered forced them to move the planned trial of Khalid Sheik Mohammad in the federal court from … Manhattan earlier this year," Klayman explained.

"Planning repeated attacks and fomenting terror – such is the twisted, sick and sad modus operandi of al-Qaida, Hamas and other terrorist groups, who already have attacked Ground Zero twice at the World Trade Center, the Lincoln Tunnel and other places in the area. To attack again and again is the nature of terrorist strategy, and the Ground Zero Mosque and its imam have well-documented ties to known terrorist groups," he said.

"This case is a strong case and while not directed at Islam, is specifically focused upon the terrorist connected imam and the Ground Zero mosque that threatens New York City," said Klayman.........................

 

[Town Heretic]

It looks like the Ground Zero Mosque controversy may end up in court. I hope it does since I believe it will reveal some truths about what is behind the effort to build this "cultural center" that politics and feelgoodism refuses to consider.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

Don't get your hopes up about that. Any monkey with a filing fee can take a swing. We'll see how the motion to dismiss goes.

 

[WizardofOz]

I know but how is it relevant?

I'm saying that unless you can show that McVeigh acted in the name of God/Christianity it was not relevant for you to bring OK City into the conversation in the first place.

Are you saying that McVeigh doesn't represent Christians everywhere?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

I suppose we should then accord Muslims the same consideration.

Exactly. You don't think McVeigh was a representative or spokesperson (whch is why I asked about relevance of statements) or the face of Christianity. I agree.

Why doesn't the same apply to the 911 terrorists? How is it that they are a representative or spokesperson or the face of Islam?

They are not and do not represent those individuals putting the mosque a few blocks away from ground zero. If you don't want to be represented by McVeigh then grant peaceful Muslims everywhere the same respect by not grouping them in with the 911 crazies.

 

[WizardofOz]

putting rhetoric filter on

putting rhetoric filter on

I support the majority

Exactly. You support the bigger mob. That's why you quote poll results.

You support the legal right

Now you're getting it.

If he asserts that there could be consequences more severe than what occurred over that silly cartoon, it implies something worse than losing at tiddlywinks.

Again, he can only speculate; just as you can only speculate.

He admits that he made a mistake.

He never said he made a mistake. He just wasn't expecting to be the aim of so much fear and ignorance and would have done things differently if he had known the reaction would be this volatile.

No, but he is the Imam. If he wants to do the right thing, the owner will just sell the building to Donald Trump for a profit.

I disagree. Doing the right thing is going ahead with the plan. Not giving in to fear and ignorance is the right thing to do.

No. It just means you are unaware of the depth of esoteric Islam and just battle over the exoteric level of the teaching.

Forgive me if I feel you are unsuited to give me lessons. You only know what you find on anti-Islamic websites; clearly displaying how ignorant you are on the matter.

The number of people opposed is not relevant

vs.

70% of the people polled.

:hammer: If you didn't feel it was relevant you wouldn't have tossed out poll results as if they were relevant.

True. But I have not read anyone claim that Walid's translations are not accurate.

Wallow in your blind belief then and wait for any such claims. You're still a hypocrite. You don't even believe your own rhetoric about blind belief.

It gets worse. Do you deny that Imam Rauf desires to modernize Sharia and make it acceptable to the West?

I've seen no evidence of that and could care less what his desires are in this regard. It need not be a concern. If you took your tinfoil hat off you'd see that Sharia is not a threat to the already existing laws of the United States. Support the Constitution and the rest becomes irrelevant.

This imam has about as much chance of furthering Sharia law in the US as the imam of the mosque two blocks further away. This mosque doesn't change a thing in that regard.

Do you deny Tagiyya and Kitman?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm

I deny your pathetic use of propaganda. You would never trust a word a Muslim said, would you? You think they are all liars after all.

Sad.

 

[WizardofOz]

True Christian outreach

True Christian outreach

Cordova Christians put out welcome mat for new mosque

While the 4,000-square-foot worship hall is being completed, Heartsong has opened its doors to its neighbors throughout the monthlong observance of Ramadan. Under a gigantic cross constructed of salvaged wood, nearly 200 area Muslims have been gathering each night to pray. "I think it's helped break down a lot of barriers in both congregations," said Islamic center board member Danish Siddiqui.

:cloud9:

 

[bybee]

All right Dearie

All right Dearie

No, but slave owners did. About as relevant too.


Since you can make exactly the same argument to support their removal, why does that matter?


Not yet. Then again, have you watched the news lately? CBS This Morning (or whatever it's called) had a piece on objections to mosque building in a Tennessee town and trouble country wide.

Man, that Ground Zero just keeps getting broader--in inverse proportion to the thinking on the other side, one imagines. :mmph:

I'm telling you, bybe, just give them Poland. They'll stop. It will be enough...woof.

I believe that was an illegal punch?

 

[WizardofOz]

Cenk On Muslims & Mosque Near Ground Zero

 

[Nick_A]

Exactly. You support the bigger mob. That's why you quote poll results.



Now you're getting it.



Again, he can only speculate; just as you can only speculate.



He never said he made a mistake. He just wasn't expecting to be the aim of so much fear and ignorance and would have done things differently if he had known the reaction would be this volatile.



I disagree. Doing the right thing is going ahead with the plan. Not giving in to fear and ignorance is the right thing to do.



Forgive me if I feel you are unsuited to give me lessons. You only know what you find on anti-Islamic websites; clearly displaying how ignorant you are on the matter.


vs.

:hammer: If you didn't feel it was relevant you wouldn't have tossed out poll results as if they were relevant.



Wallow in your blind belief then and wait for any such claims. You're still a hypocrite. You don't even believe your own rhetoric about blind belief.



I've seen no evidence of that and could care less what his desires are in this regard. It need not be a concern. If you took your tinfoil hat off you'd see that Sharia is not a threat to the already existing laws of the United States. Support the Constitution and the rest becomes irrelevant.

This imam has about as much chance of furthering Sharia law in the US as the imam of the mosque two blocks further away. This mosque doesn't change a thing in that regard.



I deny your pathetic use of propaganda. You would never trust a word a Muslim said, would you? You think they are all liars after all.

Sad.

Exactly. You support the bigger mob. That's why you quote poll results.

We have to first agree on what a mob is. From the dictionary.

mob,n, A large group of people whose aim WizarofOz disagrees with.

Now you're getting it.

Yes. That is what worries me.

Again, he can only speculate; just as you can only speculate.

True, but it is still a warning. It reminds me of the old Mafia protection racket. The Imam wants to give us an offer we can't refuse. Let the mosque protect us from further attack.

He never said he made a mistake. He just wasn't expecting to be the aim of so much fear and ignorance and would have done things differently if he had known the reaction would be this volatile.

He underestimated the reaction. That is a mistake. Why argue something so obvious?

He never said he made a mistake. He just wasn't expecting to be the aim of so much fear and ignorance and would have done things differently if he had known the reaction would be this volatile.

Curious how you view giving in to fear and ignorance, I consider acting in accordance with human sensitivity and compassion towards the sufferings of others.

Forgive me if I feel you are unsuited to give me lessons. You only know what you find on anti-Islamic websites; clearly displaying how ignorant you are on the matter.

No. It just means you are so caught up with secular Islam that you cannot fathom Muslims who could think further than three inches in front of their nose. You could never appreciate someone like Frithjof Schuon. You have no conception that esoteric Islam exists since you are so caught up in your preconditioned sense of exoteric right and wrong. Your loss.

http://www.amazon.com/SWEDENBORG-ESOTERIC-ISLAM-Swedenborg-Studies/dp/0877851832

It isn't my path but I have great respect for what it offers for Muslims capable of more than blind exoteric reactions.

If you didn't feel it was relevant you wouldn't have tossed out poll results as if they were relevant.

The Imam is pushing the idea that the mosque is something people want. That is not true.

Wallow in your blind belief then and wait for any such claims. You're still a hypocrite. You don't even believe your own rhetoric about blind belief.

Again, you believe the Imam and I believe the donkey because the donkey is making sense.

I deny your pathetic use of propaganda. You would never trust a word a Muslim said, would you? You think they are all liars after all.

You are so caught up in political manipulation you are not open to the potential good in Islam written of and spoken by Muslims you are closed to. Your loss.

 

[Town Heretic]

I believe that was an illegal punch?

I don't see why you'd think so. If you're going to say something like:

Did any Muslims sign the Declaration of Independence?

As though that absence had some connection to the question then you're fairly asking for:

"No, but slave owners did. About as relevant too."​

That was followed by:

Is the question that "churches which already exist in the neighborhood ought to move?".

Which seemed a bit of a duck, given--

"...you can make exactly the same argument to support their removal, why does that matter?"​

And I sort of missed in the next answer, because when you asked:

Has anyone suggested that existing Mosques ought to move?

I should have said yes, given the the building has been used for that purpose for about a year now. Instead I misspoke and then noted the spread of equally unreasoned anti Islamic rhetoric and action in other parts of the U.S. since people began giving the sentiment legs and respectability.

And that dog isn't licking our hands affectionately. It's tasting us. lain:

 

[WizardofOz]

True, but it is still a warning. It reminds me of the old Mafia protection racket. The Imam wants to give us an offer we can't refuse. Let the mosque protect us from further attack.

It's not a warning. It's speculation. He has no control over the actions of others.

He underestimated the reaction. That is a mistake. Why argue something so obvious?

That's a lot different than him saying his plan for this mosque was a mistake. You're attempts to move the goal posts seem desperate.

No. It just means you are so caught up with secular Islam that you cannot fathom Muslims who could think further than three inches in front of their nose. You could never appreciate someone like Frithjof Schuon. You have no conception that esoteric Islam exists since you are so caught up in your preconditioned sense of exoteric right and wrong. Your loss.

http://www.amazon.com/SWEDENBORG-ESOTERIC-ISLAM-Swedenborg-Studies/dp/0877851832

Pointless.
Be honest, have you read this book or are you just throwing up any link you can find? You are so caught up in the lunatic fringe that you can no longer differentiate between them and 99.9% of moderates who make up the religion.

Or perhaps you were never able to begin with. Get off the internet and go meet a Muslim in real life. Maybe that will open your eyes.

Be sure to remove your hat before leaving the house. And don't come home past curfew.

The Imam is pushing the idea that the mosque is something people want. That is not true.

It is true. Some people want it, some people don't. It just so happens that the one who are in a position to make it happen want it. You know, the people who own the property.

I believe the donkey because the donkey is making sense.

Given your posts, I am not surprised. Does the donkey have a website too?

You are so caught up in political manipulation you are not open to the potential good in Islam written of and spoken by Muslims you are closed to. Your loss.

It's like you took a potential response I would make to you and typed it to me. Weird. I would say the exact same thing about you.

 

[Nick_A]

Imam Rauf is a piece of work. He appeals to the naive Interfaith people and they swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

http://sify.com/news/imam-says-nyc-mosque-site-is-not-hallowed-ground-news-offbeat-kjnt4sceebb.html

Imam Rauf said:

"It's absolutely disingenuous, as many have said, that that block is hallowed ground," Rauf said, noting the nearby exotic dance and betting businesses. "So let's clarify that misperception."

Strippers do not make it hallowed ground. The fact that it was part of an attack upon America is what makes it hallowed ground. A business moved out of a damaged building as a result of the attack on this site. It is part of an area that is called Ground Zero and taken as a whole is hallowed ground.

hal·lowed [ hállōd ]


adjective

Definition:

1. sanctified: holy or kept for religious use
buried in hallowed ground


2. respected: regarded with great respect or reverence
the hallowed pages of our country's history

Ground Zero is now a respected part of our country's history It is hallowed ground regadless of strippers.

""The events of these past few weeks have really saddened me to my very core," he said, lamenting that the project had been misunderstood, clouded by stereotypes, and "exploited" by some to push personal or political agendas"

You've revealed it for what it is. You want to force yourself on others and expect everyone with respect for the dead to swallow some sort of Interfaith BS.

"We need to create a platform where the voice of moderate Muslims would be amplified," Rauf said. "This is an opportunity that we must capitalize on so that those who teach moderation will have a mega-horn."

As Jesus said: let your yes be yes and your no be no. You don't need amplification. What you are is defined by your deeds and not Interfaith speeches.

If you voluntarily move the mosque in the spirit of peace and reconciliation, it is a start. Then you will be heard.

But to at least some who listened to his talk Monday, that's not what Rauf is doing.

Fouad Ajami, a Middle East studies professor at Johns Hopkins University, said Rauf's appearance didn't change his misgivings about the mosque project.

"I just think it's provocative," Ajami said. While organizers may have the right to build it, "the prudence of it, the wisdom of it" is the question, he said.

Mr Ajami is a sensible man who happens to be Muslim. He says it like it is without all sorts of flowery sugary politically correct speeches. The donkey applauds.

Imam Rauf is inviting all sorts of responses that will make a mockery out of the site. First, there is this rumor, I do not know if it is true, that a mosque cannot be built on the remains of pigs. If this is true, pork suaages will find there way onto the site as it is being built. Good for the deli business. Then there will be a Muslim gay bar.

I can imagine similar delights entering the picture. All this will do is cause trouble. Is being intentionally provacative really necessary? Imam Rauf, why not consult with some reasonable intelligent people like Mr. Ajami. Then we can get together and find another site. If you voluntarily do this in the spirit of peace and reconciliation, you'll be heard without amplification.

 

[Town Heretic]

Imam Rauf is a piece of work. He appeals to the naive Interfaith people and they swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

Imam Rauf said:

"It's absolutely disingenuous, as many have said, that that block is hallowed ground," Rauf said, noting the nearby exotic dance and betting businesses. "So let's clarify that misperception."

He's saying, doofi, that it's peculiar calling something hallowed with a gambling den and strip club tucked away within its reach.

From an AP article on the same quote:

"I'm a devout Muslim ... and I'm also a proud American citizen," said Rauf, noting that he was naturalized in 1979 and has a niece serving in the U.S. Army. "I vote in elections. I pay taxes. I pledge allegiance to the flag. And I'm a Giants fan."

Strippers do not make it hallowed ground. The fact that it was part of an attack upon America is what makes it hallowed ground.

A business moved out of a damaged building as a result of the attack on this site. It is part of an area that is called Ground Zero and taken as a whole is hallowed ground.

With a gambling den and a strip club. lain: Oh, and it's still not Ground Zero.

Ground Zero is now a respected part of our country's history It is hallowed ground regadless of strippers.

But the presence of a house of worship would taint it... Seriously, do you even think about what you're typing before your fingers start moving?

""The events of these past few weeks have really saddened me to my very core," he said, lamenting that the project had been misunderstood, clouded by stereotypes, and "exploited" by some to push personal or political agendas"

You feel like his eyes are following you around the room, don't you.

You've revealed it for what it is. You want to force yourself on others and expect everyone with respect for the dead to swallow some sort of Interfaith BS.

Irony Man. I'd say you need your own comic but this is probably enough. The hostility that bleeds through nearly everything you write and your Bartlett's Tourette's miscues only underscore the unreasoned, blinkered root of your objection. You're managing to make the ill considered look like think tank members in your positioning here.

"We need to create a platform where the voice of moderate Muslims would be amplified," Rauf said. "This is an opportunity that we must capitalize on so that those who teach moderation will have a mega-horn."

Moderation. Now there's a word you could look up and commit to memory. oly:

As Jesus said: let your yes be yes and your no be no. You don't need amplification. What you are is defined by your deeds and not Interfaith speeches.

That's not what Jesus meant and Rauf isn't a Christian...lain:

If you voluntarily move the mosque in the spirit of peace and reconciliation, it is a start. Then you will be heard.

Baloney. Should I quote you on your opinion of his beliefs? You'll take the inch and look for the next one. You might as well be intoning, "Seriously, only Poland and then we're done. That's all we want. Bam. Appeased."

Fouad Ajami, a Middle East studies professor at Johns Hopkins University, said Rauf's appearance didn't change his misgivings about the mosque project.

"I just think it's provocative," Ajami said. While organizers may have the right to build it, "the prudence of it, the wisdom of it" is the question, he said.

I think there's a wrong headed but understandable concern there. It's provocative to people who aren't thinking or who carry a bias that is unreasoned at its core and wrap it in artifice to suggest a substance that doesn't exist when closely examined.

Imam Rauf is inviting all sorts of responses that will make a mockery out of the site.

In the sense that a black man invited a lynching in the 50s South by trying to unionize or vote. lain:

First, there is this rumor, I do not know if it is true, that a mosque cannot be built on the remains of pigs.

We'll file it away with the other things you don't know. I think there's a word for it...oh, yeah, encyclopedia.

If this is true, pork suaages will find there way onto the site as it is being built. Good for the deli business. Then there will be a Muslim gay bar.

Crude and violations of the law. So much for Captain Constitution.

I can imagine similar delights entering the picture.

I can imagine you with a pitchfork...or a hood. lain:

 

[Nick_A]

He's saying, doofi, that it's peculiar calling something hallowed with a gambling den and strip club tucked away within its reach.

From an AP article on the same quote:

"I'm a devout Muslim ... and I'm also a proud American citizen," said Rauf, noting that he was naturalized in 1979 and has a niece serving in the U.S. Army. "I vote in elections. I pay taxes. I pledge allegiance to the flag. And I'm a Giants fan."

With a gambling den and a strip club. lain: Oh, and it's still not Ground Zero.

But the presence of a house of worship would taint it... Seriously, do you even think about what you're typing before your fingers start moving?

You feel like his eyes are following you around the room, don't you.

Irony Man. I'd say you need your own comic but this is probably enough. The hostility that bleeds through nearly everything you write and your Bartlett's Tourette's miscues only underscore the unreasoned, blinkered root of your objection. You're managing to make the ill considered look like think tank members in your positioning here.

Moderation. Now there's a word you could look up and commit to memory. oly:

That's not what Jesus meant and Rauf isn't a Christian...lain:

Baloney. Should I quote you on your opinion of his beliefs? You'll take the inch and look for the next one. You might as well be intoning, "Seriously, only Poland and then we're done. That's all we want. Bam. Appeased."

I think there's a wrong headed but understandable concern there. It's provocative to people who aren't thinking or who carry a bias that is unreasoned at its core and wrap it in artifice to suggest a substance that doesn't exist when closely examined.

In the sense that a black man invited a lynching in the 50s South by trying to unionize or vote. lain:

We'll file it away with the other things you don't know. I think there's a word for it...oh, yeah, encyclopedia.

Crude and violations of the law. So much for Captain Constitution.

I can imagine you with a pitchfork...or a hood. lain:

TH you are as gullible and elitist as they come. You even believe that the importance of an attack on America is defined by the neighborhood it occurs in. The Burlington Coat factory building was surrounded by strippers and people, heaven forbid, that gamble.

I'm going to suggest that Knight make it so that your posts can include a violin section playing hearts and flowers.

You believe in this Phony Iman and his politically correct Interfaith gift of gab.

But the presence of a house of worship would taint it... Seriously, do you even think about what you're typing before your fingers start moving?

House of worship?? Who are you trying to kid? Do you know who his partner is for this Sharia cultural center?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/imam_pal_is_nut_gPPtzFWEtyaUlE3u4P4ckI

It is Faiz Khan. Who is he?

On MUJCA's Web site, Khan wrote that "the inescapable fact [is] that 9/11 was an inside job."

"The prime factor for the success of the criminal mission known as 9/11 did not come from the quarter known as 'militant Islam,' although the phenomenon known as 'militant Islamic networks' may have played a partial role, or even a less than partial role -- perhaps the role of patsy and scapegoat," he wrote in documents uncovered by the Investigative Project on Terrorism.

Khan was listed as one of three directors of the American Society for the Advancement of Muslims in its 1997 incorporation papers, when it went by the name of the American Sufi Muslim Association.

ASMA and Rauf's Cordoba Initiative are spearheading the drive to create a $100 million Islamic cultural center and mosque near Ground Zero.

In an e-mail exchange with The Post, Khan said he ended his affiliation with the ASMA in "2002 and 2003," although that claim is contradicted by a record of him speaking at a 2006 ASMA conference in Copenhagen, where his bio listed him as a board member


Talk about a Khan job!. This moderate Muslim asserts that the attack on Ground Zero was an inside job.

You'll have to higher some additional violinists to make this sound good.

Irony Man. I'd say you need your own comic but this is probably enough. The hostility that bleeds through nearly everything you write and your Bartlett's Tourette's miscues only underscore the unreasoned, blinkered root of your objection. You're managing to make the ill considered look like think tank members in your positioning here.

Your sugary gullibility as concerns the Ground Zero mosque only sees normal concerns for the needs of others as hostile. You are a typical elitist that will justify taking advantage of others and what you cannot understand because it makes you feel important believing yourself socially aware.

Bring on that peace and love and keep those violins cranking. I prefer the strippers. An honest curvy behind is worth 100 phony politically correct speeches.

 

[Nick_A]

It's not a warning. It's speculation. He has no control over the actions of others.



That's a lot different than him saying his plan for this mosque was a mistake. You're attempts to move the goal posts seem desperate.


Pointless.
Be honest, have you read this book or are you just throwing up any link you can find? You are so caught up in the lunatic fringe that you can no longer differentiate between them and 99.9% of moderates who make up the religion.

Or perhaps you were never able to begin with. Get off the internet and go meet a Muslim in real life. Maybe that will open your eyes.

Be sure to remove your hat before leaving the house. And don't come home past curfew.



It is true. Some people want it, some people don't. It just so happens that the one who are in a position to make it happen want it. You know, the people who own the property.



Given your posts, I am not surprised. Does the donkey have a website too?



It's like you took a potential response I would make to you and typed it to me. Weird. I would say the exact same thing about you.

Pointless.
Be honest, have you read this book or are you just throwing up any link you can find? You are so caught up in the lunatic fringe that you can no longer differentiate between them and 99.9% of moderates who make up the religion.

Or perhaps you were never able to begin with. Get off the internet and go meet a Muslim in real life. Maybe that will open your eyes.

Be sure to remove your hat before leaving the house. And don't come home past curfew.

No. It is you that doesn't know the type of Muslims I do. I'm associated with a perennial tradition. As such, I've been fortunate to meet Hindus Sufis , Buddhists, Jews, and Christians who know that their paths have both an exoteric or outer side and an esoteric or inner side.

That is why I appreciate Frithjof Schuon. He was a brilliant Muslim who is part of the perennial tradition that admits all the great traditions as having a common source.

Frithjof Schuon (1907-1998) was a well respected European mystic, philosopher, poet, and painter. He was a scholar of Islamic culture and became a disciple of the Algerian Sufi Shaikh Ahmad Al’Alawi. Frithjof Schuon also studied Native American culture and was adopted into the Red Cloud family and later the Crow tribe. He has written a vast number of books in many languages.

There are Muslims like this and there are those that have been conditioned to be robots. In-between there are many nice people.

The Folk wisdom you like to ridicule is celebrated by many Muslims. This means they have not lost the value of humor that has become so common including on this thread.

Mulla Nasreddin on his donkey has been made into a statue. I know the elite will frown upon it but it is because they lack the humility to appreciate Folk Wisdom.

Here is a statue of the wise Mulla on his donkey. why bother making it? I cannot explain it to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Khodja_Nasritdin.jpg

Nasreddin would bomb over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin

Nasreddin lived in Anatolia, Turkey; he was born in Hortu Village in Sivrihisar, Eskişehir in the 13th century, then settled in Akşehir, and later in Konya, where he died (probably born in 1209 CE and died 1275/6 or 1285/6 CE).[3][6]

As generations went by, new stories were added, others were modified, and the character and his tales spread to other regions. The themes in the tales have become part of the folklore of a number of nations and express the national imaginations of a variety of cultures. Although most of them depict Nasreddin in an early small-village setting, the tales (like Aesop's fables) deal with concepts that have a certain timelessness. They purvey a pithy folk wisdom that triumphs over all trials and tribulations. The oldest manuscript of Nasreddin was found in 1571.

Today, Nasreddin stories are told in a wide variety of regions, and have been translated into many languages. Some regions independently developed a character similar to Nasreddin, and the stories have become part of a larger whole. In many regions, Nasreddin is a major part of the culture, and is quoted or alluded to frequently in daily life. Since there are thousands of different Nasreddin stories, one can be found to fit almost any occasion.[8] Nasreddin often appears as a whimsical character of a large Albanian, Arab, Armenian, Azeri, Bengali, Bosnian, Bulgarian, Greek, Chinese, Russian, Hindi, Italian, Pashto, Persian, Romanian, Serbian, Turkish and Urdu folk tradition of vignettes, not entirely different from zen koans. He is also very popular in Greece for his wisdom and his judgement;[citation needed] he is also known in Bulgaria, although in a different role, see below. He has been very popular in China for many years, and still appears in variety of movies, cartoons, and novels.

The "International Nasreddin Hodja Festival" is held annually in Akşehir between July 5–10.[9]

The elite want to frown on these Folk heroes. I don't see a statue of the wise Mulla in NY. Instead some fraud wants to erect a Sharia mosque. Yet the common person finds wisdom in the words of the highly esteemed Mulla Nasreddin.. They are right and I cannot explain to you why. I know it is insulting to the educated elite and not even our wise Mulla could explain to you what you are losing by being snobbish.

You posted:

"[But] the Bible is a statement of Universal law, of that which obtains in the realm of the invisible as well as that which obtains in the realm of the visible, and therefore it deals with the facts of a transcendental nature as well as with those of the physical plane; and accordingly it contemplates an earlier process anterior to Evolution — the process, namely, of Involution: the passing of Spirit into Form as antecedent to the passing of Form into Consciousness." T.T.

But do you know what it means? Can you find a Sufi parable that relates to it?

 

[Town Heretic]

You even believe that the importance of an attack on America is defined by the neighborhood it occurs in. The Burlington Coat factory building was surrounded by strippers and people, heaven forbid, that gamble.

Now try the actual point you're running from so fast the ghost of Jessee Owens is applauding in admiration. lain:

I'm going to suggest that Knight make it so that your posts can include a violin section playing hearts and flowers.

Right after he finishes up your scratch and sniff app. That should keep TOL mostly upwind.

You believe in this Phony Iman and his politically correct Interfaith gift of gab.

I don't have any reason not to, but that's never been at the heart of my argument...the argument that has your ham strings tightening up like piano wire. :upright:

House of worship??

Yep. People pray and everything. They've been doing it there for some time now without interfering with the gambling den or strip club trade.

Who are you trying to kid? Do you know who his partner is for this Sharia cultural center?

Is it the second largest private shareholder in Fox News? :chuckle: Seriously, the article you link to doesn't even refer to him as having current involvement with the mosque or Rauf. And do you know how many non Muslims believe 9/11 was some sort of conspiracy?

People.

It is Faiz Khan. Who is he?

Sounds like a rich Muslim in serious denial about 9/11. And?

ASMA and Rauf's Cordoba Initiative are spearheading the drive to create a $100 million Islamic cultural center and mosque near Ground Zero.

In an e-mail exchange with The Post, Khan said he ended his affiliation with the ASMA in "2002 and 2003," although that claim is contradicted by a record of him speaking at a 2006 ASMA conference in Copenhagen, where his bio listed him as a board member

Okay, he got the dates wrong. He wasn't active as of four instead of seven years ago. lain:

Talk about a Khan job!. This moderate Muslim asserts that the attack on Ground Zero was an inside job.

Who touted Faiz Khan as a moderate? Not saying he isn't in his beliefs regarding Islam in relation to the West, but who advanced that argument you appear to be countering?

You'll have to higher some additional violinists to make this sound good.

Whereas you only need the sound of your fingers tapping against the keyboard to sound foolish.

Your sugary gullibility as concerns the Ground Zero mosque

Glad you think I'm sweet, but it's still not ground zero.

You are a typical elitist

So I see you found a new way to project envy as a virtue. :thumb:

that will justify taking advantage of others

Said the fellow arguing to do exactly that to a group of people who have the audacity to want to build a house of worship in the midst of a bigoted, knee jerk, paranoid sea of humanity.

I prefer the strippers.

Given what you've traded virtue for, this surprises me not at all.

An honest curvy behind is worth 100 phony politically correct speeches.

You spend a great deal of time on that subject, either in praise of or pulling arguments from, apparently.

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

No, but slave owners did. About as relevant too.


Since you can make exactly the same argument to support their removal, why does that matter?


Not yet. Then again, have you watched the news lately? CBS This Morning (or whatever it's called) had a piece on objections to mosque building in a Tennessee town and trouble country wide.

Man, that Ground Zero just keeps getting broader--in inverse proportion to the thinking on the other side, one imagines. :mmph:

I'm telling you, bybe, just give them Poland. They'll stop. It will be enough...woof.

I was referencing something else entirely in that statement about Muslims signing the Declaration of Independence, but, I can't remember what it was! It was not anti-Muslim though. It was an aside about churches built near federal buildings as an historical fact. Oh well, my mind doesn't always serve me well.
That is why I read what you have to say with an open-mind.
It was not meant to be a hit below the belt but on reflection it sounds that way and I apologize for it.
When I do hit below the belt I like to know I'm doing it!

 

[Granite]

I've reconsidered my original position.

You can't prevent someone from doing something legal without screwing them in one way or another. And of course there is no "mosque at Ground Zero," so the issue's a misnomer and non-starter in that sense.

 

[Nydhogg]

The Imam's efforts to reform sharia are actually a good idea.

The reformed, Westernized, less authoritarian and in a great deal unenforced New Sharia would be actually a good thing.


Rather than Islamize us, that reform sharia of his that would be made acceptable to our standards (which are stricter on individual rights and value freedom more) could end up Westernizing the muslims.

If he succeeds and makes a version completely acceptable to contemporary Western sensibilities, we would not be harmed by it, and perhaps it would become the new muslim fad and westernize them. A win-win.


Overall that effort of his can't hurt.

 

[serpentdove]

Call it what it is :idunno:--a 13-story rabat--replacing our flag with their flag of :CRASH: conquest. "[T]he proposed structure is known in Islamic history as a rabat -- literally a connector..." Islam center's eerie echo of ancient terror

Related:

No 911 Mosque

 

[Town Heretic]

Call it what it is :idunno:--a 13-story rabat--replacing our flag with their flag of conquest. "[T]he proposed structure is known in Islamic history as a rabat -- literally a connector..." Islam center's eerie echo of ancient terror http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/islam_center_eerie_echo_of_ancient_iRTMW6TprkULnaA1Nqi9xM

Related:

http://www.no911mosque.org/

Thanks for adding that breath of fresh air...and by breath of fresh air I mean, of course, unsupportable, paranoid nonsense.

And the author of that piece has a habit of slanting things juuuust a bit. Here's a Wiki snippet:


"Dwight Simpson of San Francisco State University and Kaveh Afrasiabi have written that Taheri and his publisher Eleana Benador fabricated false stories in the New York Post in 2005 where Taheri identified Iran's UN ambassador Javad Zarif as one of the students involved in the 1979 seizure of hostages at the US Embassy in Tehran. Zarif was Simpson's teaching assistant and a graduate student in the Department of International Relations of San Francisco State University at the time.[11]

Khatami
Political scientist Kaveh L. Afrasiabi has written that Taheri has been intentionally inaccurate on several accounts as well as being biased against the Khatami reform movement: [1]

Nest of Spies
Shaul Bakhash of George Mason University has written that Amir Taheri concocts conspiracies in his writings, and noting that he "repeatedly refers us to books where the information he cites simply does not exist. Often the documents cannot be found in the volumes to which he attributes them.... [He] repeatedly reads things into the documents that are simply not there."[11] Bakhash has stated that Taheri's 1988 Nest of Spies is "the sort of book that gives contemporary history a bad name."


Jesse Jackson article
On October 14, 2008, Taheri wrote an article stating that at the first World Policy Forum, Rev Jesse Jackson told participants that Barack Obama would implement fundamental changes in US foreign policy towards Israel. It was later noted that the name of the conference is the World Policy Conference. Additionally, Jesse Jackson was not a speaker at the event, and denounced Taheri for "selectively imposing his own point of view and distorting mine." Jackson said he "stands forthrightly for the security and stability of Israel, its protection from any form of hostility and a peaceful, nonviolent resolution to coexisting with its Palestinian neighbors".

All the news that's in fits....lain: