toldailytopic: Hate the sin, love the sinner. What are your thoughts on that common s

[Lighthouse]

He said paint the kitchen red, but I say paint it blue.

Not sure I want to see what you would do when faced with that command.

:doh:

No, Christ is the one that fully reveals the nature of God which is love. We are the son in the prodigal son story, it is our perception that was wrong. God always loved, he never started to love and he never ceases to love, He IS love. Everything must be understood in light of Christ, it is Christ that is the Christian revelation.

He does both.

[Jesus]Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.”[/Jesus]
-Luke 14:25-26

Lighthouse, would you give us your definitions for love and hate? Also note that if you believe we are called to do both then the OP statement should be just fine for you.

Love and hate are two sides of the same coin; they are not mutually exclusive.

See above.

And consider Matthew 10:34-39

[Jesus] “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.”[/Jesus]

 

[steko]

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
-Psalm 5:4-6


You forgot the first part: see above.

Well no....didn't forget. I understand GOD's unchanging Holiness and severity in judgement. But, isn't that why Christ had to die for us, as the only means of reconciliation.

I accidently hit the 'submit reply' button before I was finished on that post. I intended to say more.

People may get tired of hearing me say this but it's not a matter of boasting, when I say that I teach the Bible and proclaim the Gospel of Grace at the County Jail for around four hours every Sunday night. The capacity is around 140 inmates, divided into seven 'pods' or 'cell blocks'. I spend about 30 minutes or so in each pod. There are five for men and two for women. I've been doing this for over twenty years, though there are new facilities now and a much greater population than there used to be.
Myself and the two guys that go with me have gotten good response from those incarcerated there. There are teachers/preachers from other persuasions who sometimes come there on other nights. They don't get a very good response. I see that the difference lies in the fact that myself and those with me, come across to these inmates as 'us'/'we'/fallen humanity/hurting souls/flawed/marred/sinful, but never the less all created in the image of GOD(yet fallen), but having great value in the sight of GOD, so much so, that GOD spent the value of His Son's life on us. Though there certainly is a distinction between those of us who have been regenerated through the cross of Christ and those who haven't, thus there is an 'us' and 'them', yet those who seek to minister in this environment with a 'holier than thou' attitude are not well received. There is a tangible feeling from folks who look down their noses at others legalistically and nearly automatically produces revulsion and rejection from the person being scrutinized. This is not necessarily a rejection of the truth of GOD on their part, but a dynamic that causes a soul to shut down and close up. Most inmates and people in general can immediately sense 'arrogance' and an attitude of 'superiority' and are immediately turned off. This becomes a weighty impediment, rendering them at that point unable to even hear or receive even the little bit of valuable teaching that might be offered. In the old jail, which was very small, those inmates who desired to attend Bible study, would be let out of their cells and placed in what we called the 'drunk tank'. It was a larger cell, which could hold fifteen or twenty people. They were locked in there and we would sit across from them, on the other side of the bars. Once, I was speaking and enjoying a wondeful rapport with these guys, they were asking questions and really soaking it up. Suddenly one of these 'stiff' preachers came in with all his 'preacher talk' and the whole place froze up cold. After he left, it took a little while for us to limber up again.
I've heard from the inmates, stories of some of the 'preachers' who come at other times, with their arrogant attitudes. Just last Sunday night some asked me if it would be a sin, if they chose to refuse visitations by some of these 'preachers'. I told them, that I turn off the radio or the TV frequently when what is being presented is not edifying to me and that I choose my input carefully.
In the last month or so, there is one pod in which at three different nights, I've had guys that have been listening to me teach, come to me and say, "I want to be saved tonight!" We get on our knees before the LORD and pray together and they really do 'receive'. Some of these guys at first wouldn't even look my way and would opt out to the recreation space, but over time began to listen, come to salvation and now when I see them, I see the peace of GOD in their eyes and a hunger for the Word of GOD.
Prisoners can spot a fake and sense a condescending attitude in a heartbeat. A lot of these preachers see these hurting people only as numbers, trophies to be 'Baptised' to add to their numbers, yet in their minds, they're just scum. It's sick.

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."-Apostle Paul

On the other hand, to be completely honest, I'm not beyond having feelings of outright hatred for some people. It's not always easy to separate the sin from the sinner. It seems to depend on the circumstances.

When I go into the jail, though, if GOD is going to work through me, I must necessarily drop all sense of partiality and seek to dispense the 'grace of GOD' freely. I never ask what the crime is that they've commited. I don't want to know, although I do know sometimes. There are murderers, rapists, and worse but all need the salvation which is only available through the cross of the LORD Jesus, and I must present this truth without prejudice. But understand, I never avoid calling sin....sin and that the wages thereof are death. The diffenence is, I point to the Holiness of GOD and the life of Christ as the ultimate standard rather than comparing their lives to my own. I seek to present myself as being just as needy as they might be, but saved by grace.
Can you imagine the honesty and genuine humility it takes for a man to get on his knees in the presence of all these 'tough' guys. It's really something to witness.
I won't go on....but I've seen many changed lives among the women, too.

 

[zippy2006]

Lighthouse, would you give us your definitions for love and hate?

Love and hate are two sides of the same coin; they are not mutually exclusive.

I see the verses differently. You haven't given me your definitions. What do the words mean to you?

 

[heir]

Well no....didn't forget. I understand GOD's unchanging Holiness and severity in judgement. But, isn't that why Christ had to die for us, as the only means of reconciliation.

You are right, steko.

2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Lighthouse is conveniently leaving out the fact that God is not angry with anyone in the dispensation of the grace of God. God fixed it so He could be nice to us.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God poured out His wrath on Jesus Christ in our place!

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

God will save anyone, anywhere, right now, right where they are no matter what they were doing while they were there when they trust the Lord for salvation believing how that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

 

[Lighthouse]

I see the verses differently. You haven't given me your definitions. What do the words mean to you?

Did you not read the verses?

To love God with all your strength, heart, mind and soul is to love everyone less to the extent that you essentially hate them if they are not in Him.

And we are also told in Romans 12:9 to "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good."

We cannot love hypocritically, we must abhor evil.

You are right, steko.

2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Lighthouse is conveniently leaving out the fact that God is not angry with anyone in the dispensation of the grace of God. God fixed it so He could be nice to us.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God poured out His wrath on Jesus Christ in our place!

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

God will save anyone, anywhere, right now, right where they are no matter what they were doing while they were there when they trust the Lord for salvation believing how that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

I'm not leaving anything out.

 

[heir]

I'm not leaving anything out.

I believe that you are. You quoted from Psalms 5, but in the very next chapter it says this:

Psalms 6:1 KJV O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Is this how God is operating in the dispensation of the grace of God?

Is this something that you have to worry about in the dispensation of the grace of God?

 

[genuineoriginal]

toldailytopic: Hate the sin, love the sinner. What are your thoughts on that common saying?

Leviticus 19:17-18 17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.​

If you hate the sinner and love the sin, then you will support them in continuing to sin.
If you hate the sin and love the sinner, then you will rebuke the sinner and try to get them to repent from their sin.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.​

I'm always wary when I hear Christians talking about "hating the sin but loving the sinner ". First of all, it usually refers to homosexuality, and homosexuality is no more a sin than heterosexuality . What is wrong is sexual promiscuity , whether gay or straight .
And many of those Christians who claim to "hate the sin but love the sinner" are
nothing but self-righteous busybodies who think they have the right to sit in judgment of others based upon what they do in private in their bedrooms.
But this is none of their business, or any one else's . And many of these "hate the sin" Christians don't want gay people to have equal rights .
Again ,don't assume that I'm gay myself just because I speak out against homophobia . I'm not - just disgusted by intolerance and bigotry of any kind .

According to the verses I posted, do you love gay people enough to rebuke them or hate them enough to encourage them continue in their sin?

 

[Lighthouse]

I believe that you are. You quoted from Psalms 5, but in the very next chapter it says this:

Psalms 6:1 KJV O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Is this how God is operating in the dispensation of the grace of God?

Is this something that you have to worry about in the dispensation of the grace of God?

Did you forget that I am among those professing the dispensation of grace?

And yet it appears to me you are deceived; for God does rebuke and chasten those who are His, even in this dispensation.

But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
-1 Corinthians 11:32

 

[elohiym]

toldailytopic: Hate the sin, love the sinner. What are your thoughts on that common saying?

I believe God.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Did God hate Esau? Why?

 

[some other dude]

Did God hate Esau?

Nah

Why?

He was speaking allegorically

 

[elohiym]

Nah

He was speaking allegorically

Then He didn't love Jacob.

Key to understanding this topic: knowing why/how God hated Esau.

 

[some other dude]

Then He didn't love Jacob.

No, that part wasn't allegorical.

 

[firon]

We are to be kind to them. We are not to rebuke them, because the remedy is only through Christ. It is quite silly to try to reform those who are unregenerate. If we are kind to them and treat them as a friend without joining in with them when they are in error, our silence during their foolishness will often teach them to mind their manners.

If our conduct is in accord with Scripture, they will become aware of it. If they want our response, they will broach the topic. Give them no more than they can handle at a time. The ideal response to the question, "Are you a Christian?" is to simply say, "Yes I am because I know Jesus is the Son of God. His resurrection proves He is the Son of God because no human can overcome death. Every other man dies. Christ is alive forever."
At this point we must remember that it is the Holy Spirit who bears witness to the resurrection of Christ. We commit the effect of that truth to the work of the Holy Spirit. If they want to hear more, they will let us know. If not, they will be comforted that we did not hound them about the hevy load of information they just heard. Leave it in the hands of the Hol;y Spirit. We dare not think that He will not give the response that He wants them to hear. Thetre are many times when we would do better to realize that the Holy Spirit is ever presence, and we must take care not to overstep Him as He works!!!

 

[elohiym]

No, that part wasn't allegorical.

Well that's certainly dividing the word. :chuckle:

Malachi 1:2-3 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."

Why/how did God hate Esau? Answering that question correctly resolves the paradox I think some people are seeing.

 

[genuineoriginal]

We are to be kind to them. We are not to rebuke them

How kind of you to hate them so much that you won't rebuke them.

Leviticus 19:17 17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.​

 

[Stripe]

Hate the sin, love the sinner? Its not in the bible, but sure. Why not? :idunno:

 

[Lighthouse]

We are not to rebuke them..,

Scripture says otherwise.

 

[heir]

Did you forget that I am among those professing the dispensation of grace?

One would hope...1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV

And yet it appears to me you are deceived; for God does rebuke and chasten those who are His, even in this dispensationBut when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
-1 Corinthians 11:32

Not at all deceived, thanks. I study to shew myself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

Your last reference is about the Lord's supper. This was Paul referring back to the same night in which Jesus Christ was betrayed (verse 23)

1 Corinthians 11:23 KJV For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

Here Paul is rebuking the Corinthians in the present (then).


1 Corinthians 11:17 KJV Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

1 Corinthians 11:18 KJV For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1 Corinthians 11:19 KJV For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

1 Corinthians 11:20 KJV When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

1 Corinthians 11:21 KJV For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

1 Corinthians 11:22 KJV What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1 Corinthians 11:23 KJV For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1 Corinthians 11:24 KJV And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25 KJV After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:26 KJV For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

1 Corinthians 11:27 KJV Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

There is only one man who was there that ate the bread and drank the cup unworthily and was guilty of the body and blood of the Lord~Judas. Be honest with yourself and the scriptures, Lighthouse. There is no way that could be anyone in the Body of Christ.

Paul continues looking back to that night...

1 Corinthians 11:28 KJV But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

1 Corinthians 11:29 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1 Corinthians 11:30 KJV For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Corinthians 11:31 KJV For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1 Corinthians 11:32 KJV But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

No one in the body of Christ can be condemned with the world. Ridiculous. Think about it. Yet this is what you are saying if you believe that verse 32 is to be applied TO you.

Paul returns to addressing the Corinthians in the here and now (then) in verse 33 on.

1 Corinthians 11:33 KJV Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

1 Corinthians 11:34 KJV And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

later...

 

[Lighthouse]

One would hope...1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV

Not at all deceived, thanks. I study to shew myself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

Your last reference is about the Lord's supper. This was Paul referring back to the same night in which Jesus Christ was betrayed (verse 23)

1 Corinthians 11:23 KJV For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

Here Paul is rebuking the Corinthians in the present (then).


1 Corinthians 11:17 KJV Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

1 Corinthians 11:18 KJV For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1 Corinthians 11:19 KJV For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

1 Corinthians 11:20 KJV When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

1 Corinthians 11:21 KJV For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

1 Corinthians 11:22 KJV What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1 Corinthians 11:23 KJV For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1 Corinthians 11:24 KJV And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25 KJV After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:26 KJV For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

1 Corinthians 11:27 KJV Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

There is only one man who was there that ate the bread and drank the cup unworthily and was guilty of the body and blood of the Lord~Judas. Be honest with yourself and the scriptures, Lighthouse. There is no way that could be anyone in the Body of Christ.

Paul continues looking back to that night...

1 Corinthians 11:28 KJV But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

1 Corinthians 11:29 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1 Corinthians 11:30 KJV For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Corinthians 11:31 KJV For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1 Corinthians 11:32 KJV But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

No one in the body of Christ can be condemned with the world. Ridiculous. Think about it. Yet this is what you are saying if you believe that verse 32 is to be applied TO you.

Paul returns to addressing the Corinthians in the here and now (then) in verse 33 on.

1 Corinthians 11:33 KJV Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

1 Corinthians 11:34 KJV And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

later...

Why are you arguing against things I never said?

 

[elohiym]

Hate the sin, love the sinner? Its not in the bible, but sure. Why not? :idunno:

Psalm 139:21-22 Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.