toldailytopic: God, Satan, or man. Who is the cause of on sin?

[elohiym]

Alas, I've been found out. I'm dumber than a plumb and have the brains of of a melon.

I don't think so. But I do think you must have some standard to determine what constitutes calamity and adversity caused by God based on your understanding of Isaiah 45:7 versus calamity and adversity not caused by God.

What do you think. NO, there.

Do you think God causes calamity and adversity today as we read he did in the Old Testament?

And most translations use the word calamity and adversity.

What matters is the underlying Hebrew and how it is used in context. In this case, our interpretation is dictated in part by the synonymous parallelism of the verse, i.e. darkness and evil in general are equated, consistent with John 1 and other scriptures. Regardless, you must have something in mind to distinguish between God caused calamity and adversity and some other form if you interpret Isaiah 45:7 that way. How do you know?

 

[elohiym]

Let me use smaller words. You have a very negative view on women. I'm sorry you are a tribulation for them

Your comment is disruptive. Nothing I've written expresses my view, or a "negative view," of women. What I have shared is evidence the law God created for Israel condemned an involuntary bodily function that God designed, i.e. he required a "sin offering" for menstruation (Le 15:30). In every way regarding this example of uncleanness that required a "sin offering" God was the cause: He created her body to menstruate; He created a law that condemned her body for menstruating.

 

[surrender]

Let me say it again, there was never a time God did not exist.

So, that is the final answer to the question.

Great. So we both agree God did not create Himself. I'm glad you agree.

 

[steko]

God, Satan, or man. Who is the cause of sin?

Certainly not GOD.
GOD is infinite in HIS being.
If sin is evil, and GOD caused sin, then GOD is evil....worse, GOD is infinitely evil. GOD forbid!

Sin is rebellion against the immutable character of GOD.
If GOD is the cause of sin, then GOD has opposed Himself.

GOD created the Universe freely.
HE didn't have to create it at all.
HE is the first and sufficient cause of all created things.
Man is created in the image of GOD.
Man, like GOD, is personal being, which reasons, chooses, wills, and from his interior thoughts brings forth effects into the real world.
Man is the first cause of his actions, flowing forth from his freewill.

Gen 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

Only good things are created by an infinitely good GOD/Creator.
Sin and evil must find their source in some cause on this side of GOD's good creation.
Sin, evil and death come forth from the free choices of men and angels.

 

[BabyChristian]

Either God created everything, or he created nothing. He created us to sin, that was the plan from the beginning.

I have thought that also and it so confuses me. That's when I think we're an ant farm experiment and seems unkind.

 

[BabyChristian]

Why are you afraid to admit that you believe that God created Himself?

A more accurate way to say it would be....

God created all things that were created. It should be obvious that some things were not created.

Ohhhhhhhhh good answer Knight!

Our brains cannot comprehend something NOT being created or something creating the first thing or the beginning of something. We cannot understand the infinite. I can't anyway. And why should I be able to, I'm a dumb created thing not the creator?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

elohiym, you know I really enjoy your posts and you are a real blessing on TOL. But on this topic.... you are way off. You should reconsider your stance. You have taken a figure of speech contained in one or two verses and tried to apply it literally towards God and turned Him into an evil God. God is good, not evil.

 

[Universalist]

I have thought that also and it so confuses me. That's when I think we're an ant farm experiment and seems unkind.

It should confuse you actually. It is our ego/flesh that is at war with our Spirit man. The truth will always bring division of the soul and spirit, that is the purpose of truth.

If you truly seek to know the truth, Seek God for yourself. Allow God to be your teacher, I promise you if you truly seek and knock, he will answer.

He won't give you stone if you seek break. Stone can also be seen as the law or 'man' rules and traditions. Bread is symbolic of the Word(CHRIST), and it won't return void.

Or you can just look at it as if you ask literally for bread, he won't literally hand you a stone.He will give truth when you truly search for it with all of your heart.

 

[steko]

The misuse of the GOD given, good gift of freewill is the source of sin and evil in the world.
GOD certainly brings about calamity/Heb-ra, wrath and judgement as punishment for sin, but He doesn't cause sin.

 

[Universalist]

I have thought that also and it so confuses me. That's when I think we're an ant farm experiment and seems unkind.

BTW, Be prepared to seen as a total lunatic by the religious world when God unleashes the hidden mysteries of the Kingdom.

They persecuted Jesus and they will persecute you.

Yet, it is all worth it.

Like the Parable of Jesus when he speaks of when someone finds a treasure.

Matthew 13:44, Jesus says, “’The kingdom of heaven (GOD) is like a treasure, hidden in a field, that a person found and hid. Then because of joy he went and sold all that he had and bought that field.’

 

[surrender]

I have thought that also and it so confuses me. That's when I think we're an ant farm experiment and seems unkind.

It confuses you because it's a contradiction and goes against reason. Faith may go beyond reason at times but it doesn't go against reason.

 

[elohiym]

elohiym, you know I really enjoy your posts and you are a real blessing on TOL. But on this topic.... you are way off.

I appreciate your candor. My stance on this topic, right or wrong, is offered to challenge ideas, my own included, and to keep the discussion lively. I'm glad we didn't all agree on this subject.

You should reconsider your stance.

I will, if convinced otherwise. That might not happen in this conversation, but I am open to be convinced otherwise.

You have taken a figure of speech contained in one or two verses and tried to apply it literally towards God and turned Him into an evil God.

In this discussion, it may appear that way, but that is not really what I have done when you consider everything I have argued on this thread and how it ties together to show how one might conclude God creates evil and is the cause of sin without making God into a "bad guy."

I provided one unambiguous, and I believe irrefutable, example of how God caused a specific sin by creating a woman to menstruate and then creating a law that condemned menstruation requiring a "sin offering" and "atonement" with God (Le 15:30). That seems like an ironclad argument that God caused that one sin, at least.

I have also considered what if the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 KJV means as you and others have suggested--calamity and adversity. This is where I'm stuck: How would I know when God causes the calamity versus God allowing the calamity, and what really is the difference? :idunno:

God is good, not evil.

I agree. That God creates evil, or that God is the cause of any sin, would not preclude God being good, from my perspective. For example, when God ordered Israel to slaughter the unborn and infants of Amalek (1Sa 15:3), he was commanding what appears to be a clear violation of objective natural law, but it was morally right by being in accordance with His will at that time (Ec 3:3).

 

[Tambora]

Genesis 2
(9) And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Totton Linnet]

okay

man causes sin with his free will

If you say God gave man free will then God is ultimately responsible for sin, there is no getting away from that. If God forbade the man to partake of the knowledge of good and evil that negates free will for what part of forbid spells free will?

Man rebelled against God having been decieved into thinking that he could choose between good and evil [in other words that he Adam would be in control, would have free will] free will is Satan's master deception.

The failure is to fail to discern that EVIL is not sin, it is there, a fact....but man was forbidden to partake of it, he is not created for evil but for good.... but he did partake of evil THAT was sin.

You will say that he must have had free will but that is not true, He was free when he was free to be all that God created him to be.

If I tell you that you may walk down this road which leads to death or this road that leads to life I am giving you a choice but whichever road you take you are under MY control for I built the roads, one is a road of joy and peace and life evermore, the other hedged up with thorns and sorrow and death.

What the devil succeeded in doing is decieving man into believing that he could disobey God but not suffer the consequences...the devil is STILL doing that to men and women today.

 

[bybee]

If you say God gave man free will then God is ultimately responsible for sin, there is no getting away from that. If God forbade the man to partake of the knowledge of good and evil that negates free will for what part of forbid spells free will?

Man rebelled against God having been decieved into thinking that he could choose between good and evil [in other words that he Adam would be in control, would have free will] free will is Satan's master deception.

The failure is to fail to discern that EVIL is not sin, it is there, a fact....but man was forbidden to partake of it, he is not created for evil but for good....THAT was sin.

You will say that he must have had free will but that is not true, He was free when he was free to be all that God created him to be.

If I tell you that you may walk down this road which leads to death or this road that leads to life I am giving you a choice but whichever road you take you are under MY control for I built the roads, one is a road of joy and peace and life evermore, the other hedged up with thorns and sorrow and death.

What the devil succeeded in doing is decieving man into believing that he could disobey God but not suffer the consequences...the devil is STILL doing that to men and women today.

Totton, The tree was there in the garden. God gave Adam and Eve free reign in the garden. Apparently, Satan also had free reign in the garden. God said to Adam, don't eat of this one tree. All other food in this garden is available to you. Interestingly, God said this to Adam before Eve was created. So then, it follows that Adam was responsible to tell Eve about the only forbidden fruit in the garden. God was/is the authority in the garden. He set the rule. Satan, as far as we know, was the first entity to rebel against God, and he decided to tempt Eve to break the only rule. She was free to choose obedience to the rule or give in to the temptation. She chose to give in. But, there was still hope for humanity because Adam had not yet broken the rule. And then, Adam, who had walked and talked and laughed with God face to face in perfect harmony with his environment, chose to break the rule. Perfection was broken. They were no longer fit for the garden.
From that time until the coming of our Lord and Savior, mankind struggled to make itself presentable before God.
Because of His great love, mercy and compassion for His children, God took pity on us and sent us a Redeemer. Now we are presented with another choice. This choice doesn't have any rules or regulations attached to it. Just say "Yes" to God the Son and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Son of Jack]

Your comment is disruptive. Nothing I've written expresses my view, or a "negative view," of women. What I have shared is evidence the law God created for Israel condemned an involuntary bodily function that God designed, i.e. he required a "sin offering" for menstruation (Le 15:30). In every way regarding this example of uncleanness that required a "sin offering" God was the cause: He created her body to menstruate; He created a law that condemned her body for menstruating.

:think: What would you think of the explanation that menstruation was brought about by the Fall? I mean, we don't have any real passage in Scripture that sheds any light on fertility cycles before the Fall, but we do know that menstruation makes women uncomfortable noid and that God said that one of the curses of the Fall was that the process of bearing a child would be more difficult and painful (Genesis 3:16). What do you think?

 

[Nihilo]

And in Isaiah 45:7, who is the LORD God talking to? Cyrus, a Persian, who had a dualistic concept of "god" and the world. Check it out. Their "good god" was Ahurah-mazda, the creator of light, their "evil god" was Angra-mainya, the creator of darkness. God was merely removing all ground for this dualism when He says He is the creator of both light and darkness and of peace and evil.

This was a great post. But here, where you seem to make the definitive case that Is 45:7 was an argument for One God in opposition to Persian duality, and that this disproves elohiym's interpretation, depends upon how the Persians viewed calamitous deeds, done by men: Did they think that Angra-mainya was the cause of calamitous deeds, or not? If they had a dualistic theology, it does not mean that they did not ascribe good deeds done by man to Ahurah-mazda and calamitous deeds done by man to Angra-mainya. You'll need a source for that view. Even if they only accused evildoers of being followers of Angra-mainya, they still therefore ascribed evil deeds to Angra-mainya.

And if this is the case, then the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 is therefore something like this:

"You believe that darkness, calamities and calamitous deeds come from Angra-mainya, and that light, good and good deeds come from Ahurah-Mazda. But I'm telling you, 'I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'"

 

[Nihilo]

elohiym, you know I really enjoy your posts and you are a real blessing on TOL. But on this topic.... you are way off. You should reconsider your stance. You have taken a figure of speech contained in one or two verses and tried to apply it literally towards God and turned Him into an evil God. God is good, not evil.

I believe that God is sovereign, and that this sovereignty, which is my worship, implies necessarily that both good and evil, good deeds and evil deeds, originate in God, the Creator and Sustainer of Creation. I subjugate my idea or thought of what is evil and what is sin, to my idea of God being sovereign. I consider it pious and reverent to ascribe evil to God, and to leave the paradox at His feet. He is the one who created the paradox, after all. I do think that there is a clue in the story of the Garden. I do think that the knowledge of good and evil has something to do with it. I do think that if we did not have this knowledge, that we would not accuse God, who is the cause of everything, of being evil.

 

[Nihilo]

You should reconsider your stance.

I will, if convinced otherwise. That might not happen in this conversation, but I am open to be convinced otherwise.

This is absolutely true.

...God caused a specific sin by creating a woman to menstruate and then creating a law that condemned menstruation requiring a "sin offering" and "atonement" with God (Le 15:30).

How would I know when God causes the calamity versus God allowing the calamity, and what really is the difference? :idunno:

For example, when God ordered Israel to slaughter the unborn and infants of Amalek (1Sa 15:3), he was commanding what appears to be a clear violation of objective natural law, but it was morally right by being in accordance with His will at that time (Ec 3:3).

These are great points.

 

[bybee]

Your comment is disruptive. Nothing I've written expresses my view, or a "negative view," of women. What I have shared is evidence the law God created for Israel condemned an involuntary bodily function that God designed, i.e. he required a "sin offering" for menstruation (Le 15:30). In every way regarding this example of uncleanness that required a "sin offering" God was the cause: He created her body to menstruate; He created a law that condemned her body for menstruating.

Well!!! Could it possibly be that when Jesus came and fulfilled the Law, He fulfilled it for woman too! Just a thought.