toldailytopic: Are all sins equal?

[elohiym]

Exactly!

Unfortunately, that isn't the topic.

I disagree.

If the penalty for any sin is the same (eternal damnation), then logically from God's perspective all sins are equal in some sense, else God would not subject people guilty of "lesser" sins to the same eternal damnation.

Furthermore, when some people claim all sins are equal I believe they mean what I have explained, not that murder is the same as stealing. It is obvious that you are attacking those who make the claim, so how can any explanation for the claim be off-topic?

 

[john w]

I disagree entirely and here is why.

The "all sins are equal" cliche makes Christianity look asinine to non-believers. I can remember arguing with a Christian when I was an atheist and he was insistent that stealing a Tootsie Roll was equal to raping and murdering an 8 year old girl.

That notion made me reject Christianity even more so.

Christian's need to understand all the arguments and be biblically accurate. And the Bible is clear, that some sins are greater than others. Had that been argued to me when I was lost maybe I would have come to know the Lord more quickly. Thankfully I found Bob Enyart's ministry and his biblical approach appealed more to the truth of God. It helped me to know that God doesn't view stealing a Tootsie Roll the same as raping and murdering a young girl.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23 is not referencing "individual acts" of sin-Elo's assertion in establishing his argument.


"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."-Rom. 4:15

No law, no transgression, and sin not imputed when there is no law:

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 Jn. 3:4

sin-transgression of the law

And yet, before the law was given to Moses, people "croaked."

Rom.5-sin-singular:

"12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

"Nevertheless"=Yet, people croaked, w/o committing any individual transgression(s)-that is Paul's argument.

Sin in Romans 6:23 is referencing the sin nature-that is why we "croak."


And hence, sins, plural, individual transgressions, can be forgiven-1 Cor. 15:1-4="died for our sins"(plural-by substitution).....

But, sin, singular, cannot-it must be judged-who we are "in Adam," our sin nature, was judged/condemned, at Calvary, through the principle of identification, as the Lord Jesus "became us:"

2 Cor. 5:20:

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin(singular-my note) in the flesh:" Rom. 8:3

 

[john w]

Numbers 22:
9And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?

10And Balaam said unto God, Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, hath sent unto me, saying,

11Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.

12And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.

2 Peter 2:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Jude:
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Did the LORD God hear the prayer of Saul of T, before he was saved?:


Acts 9:
10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

John 9:31, in the context of the entire passage, namely verses 29-34-who was speaking?

The blind man. He came to the conclusion that, if a sinner were trying to do what the Lord Jesus Christ did here, i.e., heal him of his blindness, the LORD God God would not hear his prayer. Hence, his conclusion was that this man, the Lord Jesus Christ, was from God, or else the LORD God wouldn't hear him.

That was his argument. That is, a rebellious sinner, attempting to heal the blind man of his prayer, would have gotten the same answer Balaam got when he ask God to curse the Israelites. He would not have succeeded. That is all the blind man meant; that was his argument.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

John, I don't know what point (if any) you are trying to make. :idunno:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I disagree.

If the penalty for any sin is the same (eternal damnation), then logically from God's perspective all sins are equal in some sense, else God would not subject people guilty of "lesser" sins to the same eternal damnation.

Furthermore, when some people claim all sins are equal I believe they mean what I have explained, not that murder is the same as stealing. It is obvious that you are attacking those who make the claim, so how can any explanation for the claim be off-topic?

elohiym you are stuck on the argument "are all sins worthy of condemnation for the non-believer?" You and I agree on the answer to that question.

But that isn't the topic. The topic is... are all sins equal?

Does God view stealing a Tootsie Roll to be just as bad as raping and murdering a 8 year old girl?

You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters. Ezekiel 16:52​

 

[john w]

John, I don't know what point (if any) you are trying to make. :idunno:

"Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

All sins are equal regarding the eternal consequence for sinning. That is all that matters in my opinion. A discussion about the inequality of various sins is virtually superfluous, and for some it is akin to trying to prove ones beam is not as large as the mote in his neighbor's eye."-Elo

I was agreeing with you, and pointing out, that, obviously, Elo can present a counter argument, but he mistakenly used the Romans 6:23 verse, as part of his premise, his "supporting walls," of his argument(reasons for a conclusion). I was merely "knocking down" one of his "supports"(premise) of his argument. As you know, that is part of the process of argumentation.

 

[Persephone66]

We don't assign the same punishment for every crime, right? That would be silly if we did, right? You wouldn't accept that in a criminal justice system in the real world, would you?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Adam did not kill anybody but his sin led inexorably not only to the murder of Abel but to the condition of society before the flood.

Jesus makes it clear that hate is murder and lust is adultery, what stops a person from carrying out the act? do you believe because some men are more noble than others? is it not all due to God's governance in the way He has set up society among men and a whole host of factors such as intervening grace, how we are made...how many terrorist acts were discovered before they were perpetrated by God's intervention.

Have you ever been conscious of God thwarting you when you intended to sin? did you thank Him?

Once women who wore their skirts above the ankles were considered as harlots, now they would be considered prim.

Does anybody agree with me that the first world war would not have been as awful as it was if evolution had not become the intellectual rage? from that war has sprung many ill weeds.

So then is simple unbelief as serious a sin as murder?

Just a few thoughts. "There but for God's grace go I."

 

[Totton Linnet]

John, I don't know what point (if any) you are trying to make. :idunno:

I think He is saying that all men are sinners equally lost without God and without hope outside of Christ who only is righteous

My apologies to john w if this is not what he is saying.

I kinda believe that myself.

If America was without electric power and the police for a length of time [or any country] how quickly would society disintergrate into savagery?

 

[john w]

I think He is saying that all men are sinners equally lost without God and without hope outside of Christ who only is righteous

My apologies to john w if this is not what he is saying.

I kinda believe that myself.

If America was without electric power and the police for a length of time [or any country] how quickly would society disintergrate into savagery?

"I think He is saying that all men are sinners equally lost without God and without hope outside of Christ who only is righteous"-TL

Agreed. But Elo was attempting to "prove" his argument with Romans 6:23, which has NADA to do with individual sins, and thus the topic of the thread. That was all I was pointing out. He can obviously cite other verses, as part of his premise, but not that one. That is the "job" of anyone engaging in a debate, i.e., examine the respective premises, and knock them down, if, and where appropriate.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

From the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q150: Are all transgressions of the law of God equally heinous in themselves, and in the sight of God?

A150: All transgressions of the law of God are not equally heinous; but some sins in themselves, and by reason of several aggravations, are more heinous in the sight of God than others.[1]

1. John 19:11; Ezek. 8:6, 13, 15; I John 5:16; Psa. 78:17, 32, 56

Q151: What are those aggravations that make some sins more heinous than others?

A151: Sins receive their aggravations,

1. From the persons offending:[1] if they be of riper age,[2] greater experience or grace,[3] eminent for profession,[4] gifts,[5] place,[6] office,[7] guides to others,[8] and whose example is likely to be followed by others.[9]

2. From the parties offended:[10] if immediately against God,[11] his attributes,[12] and worship;[13] against Christ, and his grace;[14] the Holy Spirit,[15] his witness,[16] and workings;[17] against superiors, men of eminency,[18] and such as we stand especially related and engaged unto;[19] against any of the saints,[20] particularly weak brethren,[21] the souls of them, or any other,[22] and the common good of all or many.[23]

3. From the nature and quality of the offense:[24] if it be against the express letter of the law,[25] break many commandments, contain in it many sins:[26] if not only conceived in the heart, but breaks forth in words and actions,[27] scandalize others,[28] and admit of no reparation:[29] if against means,[30] mercies,[31] judgments,[32] light of nature,[33] conviction of conscience,[34] public or private admonition,[35] censures of the church,[36] civil punishments;[37] and our prayers, purposes, promises,[38] vows,[39] covenants,[40] and engagements to God or men:[41] if done deliberately,[42] wilfully,[43] presumptuously,[44] impudently,[45] boastingly,[46] maliciously,[47] frequently,[48] obstinately,[49] with delight,[50] continuance,[51] or relapsing after repentance.[52]

4. From circumstances of time [53] and place:[54] if on the Lord's day,[55] or other times of divine worship;[56] or immediately before [57] or after these,[58] or other helps to prevent or remedy such miscarriages:[59] if in public, or in the presence of others, who are thereby likely to be provoked or defiled.[60]

1. Jer. 2:8
2. Job 32:7, 9; Eccl. 4:13
3. I Kings 11:4, 9
4. II Sam. 12:14; I Cor. 5:1
5. James 4:17; Luke 12:47-48
6. Jer. 5:4-5
7. II Sam. 12:7-9; Ezek. 8:11-12
8. Rom. 2:17-24
9. Gal. 2:11-14
10. Matt. 21:38-39
11. I Sam. 2:25; Acts 5:4; Psa. 51:4
12. Rom. 2:4
13. Mal. 1:8, 14
14. Heb. 2:2-3; 12:25
15. Heb. 10:29; Matt. 12:31-32
16. Eph. 4:30
17. Heb. 6:4-6
18. Jude 1:8; Num. 12:8-9; Isa. 3:5
19. Prov. 30:17; II Cor. 12:15; Psa. 55:12-15
20. Zeph. 2:8, 10-11; Matt. 18:6; I Cor. 6:8; Rev. 17:6
21. I Cor. 8:11-12; Rom. 14:13, 15, 21
22. Ezek. 13:19; I Cor. 8:12; Rev. 18:12-13; Matt. 23:15
23. I Thess. 2:15-16; Josh. 22:20
24. Prov. 6:30-35
25. Ezra 9:10-12; I Kings 11:9-10
26. Col. 3:5; I Tim. 6:10; Prov. 5:8-12; 6:32-33; Josh. 7:21
27. James 1:14-15; Matt. 5:22; Micah 2:1
28. Matt. 18:7; Rom. 2:23-24
29. Deut 22:22, 28-29; Prov. 6:32-35
30. Matt. 11:21-24; John 15:22
31. Isa. 1:3; Deut. 32:6
32. Amos 4:8-11; Jer. 5:8
33. Rom. 1:26-27
34. Rom. 1:32; Dan. 5:22; Titus 3:10-11
35. Prov. 29:1
36. Titus 3:10; Matt. 18:17
37. Prov. 23:35, 27:22
38. Psa. 78:34-37; Jer. 2:20, 13:5-6, 20-21
39. Eccl. 5:4-6; Prov. 20:25
40. Lev. 26:25
41. Prov. 2:17; Ezek. 17:18-19
42. Psa. 36:4
43. Jer. 6:16
44. Num. 15:30; Exod. 21:14
45. Jer. 3:3; Prov. 7:13
46. Psa. 52:1
47. III John 1:10
48. Num. 14:22
49. Zech. 7:11-12
50. Prov. 2:14
51. Isa. 57:17
52. Jer. 34:8-11; II Peter 2:20-22
53. II Kings 5:26
54. Jer. 7:10; Isa. 26:10
55. Ezek. 23:37-39
56. Isa. 58:3-5; Num. 25:6-7
57. I Cor. 11:20-21
58. Jer. 7:8-10, 14-15; John 13:27, 30
59. Ezra 9:13-14
60. II Sam. 16:22; I Sam. 2:22-24

Q152: What doth every sin deserve at the hands of God?

A152: Every sin, even the least, being against the sovereignty,[1] goodness,[2] and holiness of God,[3] and against his righteous law,[4] deserveth his wrath and curse,[5] both in this life,[6] and that which is to come;[7] and cannot be expiated but by the blood of Christ.[8]

1. James 2:10-11
2. Exod. 20:1-2
3. Hab. 1:13; Lev. 10:3; 11:44-45
4. I John 3:4; Rom. 7:12
5. Eph. 5:6; Gal. 3:10
6. Lam. 3:39; Deut. 28:15-68
7. Matt. 25:41
8. Heb. 9:22; I Peter 1:18-19

AMR

 

[Aaron the Tall]

No I don't agree. Even in hell some sins will produce worse judgement.

Any idea of what this would look like? It doesn't seem absolutely clear what the implications are of someone being under greater condemnation than someone else.

Does greater condemnation mean greater judgement?

And what does that mean?

I'm sure hell won't be pleasant, but I don't necessarily think it will be a torture chamber of fire. Jesus seemed to use "fire" and "darkness" imagery to tell us it won't be pleasant. The Bible calls it a place of torment - not a place of torture. This could be mental anguish as much as anything - especially if we are going to say that the worst part of hell is that people will be separated from God. And if that's the case - every sinner receives the worst punishment.

"See, O LORD, how distressed I am! I am in torment within, and in my heart I am disturbed, for I have been most rebellious." Lam. 1:20

Since everyone in hell gets the worst possible punishment (separation from God) how can there be degrees of punishment in hell?

Do the least sinners have the least amount of separation from God?

Or if you think it's all about flames - do you think the worst sinners will experience hotter temps?

I'm convinced separation from all goodness will be worse than any physical pain. If you are experiencing heat for eternity, you might be able to tune out the pain after a while.

However, if hell is about torment - about reliving all the sins you committed in light of the who God is - and of realizing how you caused others pain - this mental anguish won't go away. There will be no cleansing of the conscious in hell.

If this is what hell is about, that's the only way I can see different measures of "punishment" for worst sins. The more heinous your sins, the more regret you will have, the more hurts you will see were caused by you. The worst sinner will be in worst mental torment as they replay the way they have squandered their life.

 

[bybee]

Any idea of what this would look like? It doesn't seem absolutely clear what the implications are of someone being under greater condemnation than someone else.

Does greater condemnation mean greater judgement?

And what does that mean?

I'm sure hell won't be pleasant, but I don't necessarily think it will be a torture chamber of fire. Jesus seemed to use "fire" and "darkness" imagery to tell us it won't be pleasant. The Bible calls it a place of torment - not a place of torture. This could be mental anguish as much as anything - especially if we are going to say that the worst part of hell is that people will be separated from God. And if that's the case - every sinner receives the worst punishment.

"See, O LORD, how distressed I am! I am in torment within, and in my heart I am disturbed, for I have been most rebellious." Lam. 1:20

Since everyone in hell gets the worst possible punishment (separation from God) how can there be degrees of punishment in hell?

Do the least sinners have the least amount of separation from God?

Or if you think it's all about flames - do you think the worst sinners will experience hotter temps?

I'm convinced separation from all goodness will be worse than any physical pain. If you are experiencing heat for eternity, you might be able to tune out the pain after a while.

However, if hell is about torment - about reliving all the sins you committed in light of the who God is - and of realizing how you caused others pain - this mental anguish won't go away. There will be no cleansing of the conscious in hell.

If this is what hell is about, that's the only way I can see different measures of "punishment" for worst sins. The more heinous your sins, the more regret you will have, the more hurts you will see were caused by you. The worst sinner will be in worst mental torment as they replay the way they have squandered their life.

This is good food for thought!

 

[Lighthouse]

From the standpoint of, "What deeds of the flesh makes one righteous"...then they're all the same. Any sin - great or small - makes one equally unrighteous and unworthy of an eternity with a perfect God.

From any other standpoint...then all sins are most certainly not the same. It would be disgusting to claim that something like provoking your little sister by pulling her hair is anywhere near the same ballpark as rape, kidnap, or murder.

This...

I like to think of it like this....

All debt is debt. It doesn't matter if you owe one penny or one million dollars you are in debt. But not all debt is the same. Some debt is greater than other debt. Owing one million dollars is a greater debt than owing one penny.

Therefore some debt is greater than other debt, but it is all debt.

You could say the same about sin.

All sin is sin. However some sin is greater than other sin.

...and this.

I guess if absolute perfection is what is required, then either you are, or aren't.

The idea that absolute perfection is required seems sick to me, but so be it.

The idea that God would require something and then give it to us as a gift if we just accept it sickens you?

not voting republican is almost the same as killing a baby

Shut up, you sycophantic shill. The redundancy of your self-delusion is obnoxious and overplayed. We're all sick of it, and you. Get it through your thick skull that nobody wants to listen to you for the simple fact that you aren't willing to listen to anyone else.

 

[Lon]

There is nothing ridiculous- and I am not "an OT guy", whatever that is. I suspect that you did not understand me at all. The idea that all sins are equal (even 'only' in God's eyes) strikes me as immoral and horrible.

Apologies. It does look like we are on the same page, so I'm sure you are correct, and I read you wrong.

-Lon

 

[elohiym]

You said that God doesn't hear sinners. You are wrong.

I already shared John 9:31 with you, a verse that suggests it was common knowledge among Jews at that time that God does not hear sinners. Here are some of the explicit scriptures that belief is based upon:

Proverbs 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Proverbs 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Proverbs 21:13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Isaiah 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

Jeremiah 14:12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Ezekiel 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Micah 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.

Zechariah 7:13 Therefore it is come to pass, that as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:

Proverbs 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

If ten explicit scripture verses that state God does not hear sinners isn't sufficient support for my claim, then what would you consider sufficient support?

 

[elohiym]

So when someone repents- they are no longer a sinner.

Correct. A righteous man cannot be a sinner, according to your scriptures.

What do they need Jesus for then?

Jesus took away their sins.

 

[elohiym]

elohiym you are stuck on the argument "are all sins worthy of condemnation for the non-believer?" You and I agree on the answer to that question.

Okay.

Does God view stealing a Tootsie Roll to be just as bad as raping and murdering a 8 year old girl?

He views both acts as sin worthy of eternal separation from him. The Bible states that hatred is equated to murder (1Jo 3:15) and that if you violate one commandment you have, in some sense, violated them all (James 2:10). Jesus, God in flesh, said this:

Luke 13:1-5
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

That all implies sins are equal in some sense that is relevant to the gospel, and that is what I believe many mean when they say "all sins are equal." I've never encountered a person that argued stealing and murder are equal in every sense, and I suspect that is because those two sins are self-evidently not equal in every sense, as I've already acknowledged earlier in this thread.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

That all implies sins are equal in some sense that is relevant to the gospel, and that is what I believe many mean when they say "all sins are equal."

:sigh:

All that it implies is that all sin is sin and all sin is worthy of condemnation.

It's really too bad that you can't open your mind up enough to address the actual topic instead of the topic you have tunnel-visioned your responses to.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If this is what hell is about, that's the only way I can see different measures of "punishment" for worst sins. The more heinous your sins, the more regret you will have, the more hurts you will see were caused by you. The worst sinner will be in worst mental torment as they replay the way they have squandered their life.

I agree with that notion entirely. :up: