elohiym
Well-known member
The eternal consequence for stealing and murder are the same.
Do you agree with that point?
toldailytopic: Are all sins equal?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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The eternal consequence for stealing and murder are the same.
Do you agree with that point?
No.
elohiym
Well-known member
Regardless of the size of the debt, the eternal consequence is the same. Arguing that murder is a greater sin than stealing is pointless in relation to the gospel of Christ.
You believe a man was God in flesh and that he died and rose from the dead. To a non-believer that makes you look just as asinine than if you claimed all sins are equal in some way.
What is relevant to apprehending the gospel is the way in which all sins are equal, not the way in which they are not all equal.
If you desire to discuss the inequality of certain sins and want it to be relevant to the gospel, then I suggest you consider that under the law not all sins could be remitted by the shedding of blood, namely death penalty offenses that had no sacrifice, no atonement.
elohiym
Well-known member
God doesn't hear sinners, Chair. Search your scriptures.
My scriptures allow for repentance, atonement and forgiveness.
elohiym
Well-known member
That results in ...
Are you on a sinner's treadmill, or perceive that eventually you will no longer sin?
You said that God doesn't hear sinners. You are wrong.
elohiym
Well-known member
I'm not wrong. If you search your scriptures you will find numerous verses that explicitly and implicitly state God does not hear sinners. Perhaps you should research that before you proclaim I am wrong.
Read the book of Jonah, then get back to me.
elohiym
Well-known member
I have read it. Feel free to use it to make a point, if you have one.
Have you read this?
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. John 9:31.
The Jewish man quoted said, "...we know." It was common knowledge among Jews at that time that God does not hear sinners because that is what the scriptures explicitly and implicitly state in numerous places.
toldailytopic: Are all sins equal? |
Are all sins equal? Sin is sin, but I think the of consequences are and punishment are by degree. The following probably isn't right but I read this in Luke, and it may be way off base out context, I heard someone speak on sins by degree and consequences and punishment years ago using a passage from Luke...Citing the underlined...47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. Luke 12:47-48
So there are lesser sins and great sins?
This is a poor example, misdemeanors are lesser crimes and felonies are greater crimes, but I think each class degrees of each class for the crime committed.
Sins of the flesh and sins of the heart, is one worse than the other?
Sins of the flesh to me are those things which we crave to satisfy our fleshly urges and longings, sins of the heart those ones we keep private like lust, envy and greed.
It is the unrepented and unforgiven sins that are the worst, especially when it against another person. I really have no idea what I just posted, so I'll post it anyway, that seems to read like I was going around third base on a motorcycle.
So there are lesser sins and great sins?
This is a poor example, misdemeanors are lesser crimes and felonies are greater crimes, but I think each class degrees of each class for the crime committed.
Sins of the flesh and sins of the heart, is one worse than the other?
Sins of the flesh to me are those things which we crave to satisfy our fleshly urges and longings, sins of the heart those ones we keep private like lust, envy and greed.
It is the unrepented and unforgiven sins that are the worst, especially when it against another person. I really have no idea what I just posted, so I'll post it anyway, that seems to read like I was going around third base on a motorcycle.
The point is simple. Jonah sinned, prayed, was heard by God. The people of Ninveh sinned, repented, prayed, and were forgiven by God.
Have you ever read the book?
Quoting a Christian source doesn't exactly convince me, no matter what it claims Jews said.
What exactly do you do with the story of Jonah? Do I need to point out other cases where God hears sinners? Where people are forgiven?
not voting republican is almost the same as killing a baby
No I don't agree. Even in hell some sins will produce worse judgement.
And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. Luke 12:47-48
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Mat. 23:14-15
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." Mat. 11:21-24
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. James 3:1
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Mat. 23:14-15
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." Mat. 11:21-24
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. James 3:1
elohiym based on the following scripture...
Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:11
... do you agree that Jesus considered some sins greater than others?
elohiym
Well-known member
Where is it written that Jonah sinned? Where is it written that Jonah was heard by God before he looked "again toward thy holy temple?" Where is it written that an unrepentant Ninveh was heard by God?
Yes, the people of Nineveh turned from wickedness and were spared. While they were sinning, God did not hear them. I believe that is self-evident.
I already told you I have read it.
Quoting it was supposed to stimulate in you a desire to find out why that man claimed it was common knowledge among Jews that God does not hear sinners. As I've said, there are numerous scriptures (OT) that explicitly and implicitly state God does not hear sinners. Starting with the verse I provided from the NT, a person interested in discussion or argument could easily check cross references for that verse and find many of the numerous verses that explicitly and implicitly state God does not hear sinners.
There is nothing to do with it. I believe the people of Nineveh turned from their wickedness. God did not hear them while they continued to sin, obviously.
Yes. And you must also explain the contradiction between your perception of a sinner being heard and the fact that scripture states in numerous places, both explicitly and implicitly, that God does not hear sinners.
Being heard and being forgiven are not always connected, and in the case of God's forgiveness being heard is irrelevant.
So when someone repents- they are no longer a sinner. What do they need Jesus for then?
elohiym
Well-known member
I am arguing that the wages of any sin is eternal damnation (a.k.a. hell), and you are arguing that some sins will allegedly result in a worse time while being eternally damned in a place called hell. What is relevant to the gospel is not being damned at all. What is irrelevant to the gospel is alleged degrees of punishment within a framework of eternal damnation, assuming that is what Jesus meant. Setting aside that I don't believe that is what Jesus meant, I do hope you can agree with my main point--the wages of any sin is death (the second death).
Yes. It is self-evident that some sins were considered worse than others in the law, evidenced by the death penalty (first death) being prescribed for some but not all sins. Other than the intriguing fact that death penalty offenses could not be atoned for through blood, and how no Christ-type existed to make atonement for death penalty offenses, and how those two facts alone absolutely obliterates any notion that Jesus death on the cross was a penal substitute for anyone's sins, it's virtually irrelevant to the gospel.
Not all sins are equal.
This verse has already been posted several times in this thread.
Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” - John 19:11
Throwing your bologna sandwich under the bench instead of eating it would not carry the same weight as turning Jesus' name into a cuss word.
Blasphemy, Murder, steering people way from God, and sexual immorality carry the most weight. Punishment for these in the Old testament was severe. Some one who promotes homosexuality and teaches it to children is guilty of a greater sin than someone to tries to get tax breaks for politicians.
Teaching that all sins are equal has helped to exacerbate the problem of a weak and ineffectual church in addressing the moral problems in the culture. This doctrine is a sign of a wimpy church.
This verse has already been posted several times in this thread.
Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” - John 19:11
Throwing your bologna sandwich under the bench instead of eating it would not carry the same weight as turning Jesus' name into a cuss word.
Blasphemy, Murder, steering people way from God, and sexual immorality carry the most weight. Punishment for these in the Old testament was severe. Some one who promotes homosexuality and teaches it to children is guilty of a greater sin than someone to tries to get tax breaks for politicians.
Teaching that all sins are equal has helped to exacerbate the problem of a weak and ineffectual church in addressing the moral problems in the culture. This doctrine is a sign of a wimpy church.