Not true. It makes them guilty of adultery "in the heart," which was not commanded to be punished with death.
To Those Who Think Adulterers, Homosexuals, Fornicators etc...
- Thread starter Arthur Brain
- Start date
Not true. It makes them guilty of adultery "in the heart," which was not commanded to be punished with death.
lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
Let’s take a different capital crime then; disobedient sons. Many sons persistently disobey their parents, so should they be put to death?
Are the parents willing to take them before the judges and say so?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
what do you think that means?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
let's see if we can get agreement that some crimes are so damaging to society that they deserve the death penalty. I have a whole laundry list; let's see if I can get you, lmohm, to agree that a couple of them merit the death penalty
murder
rape
child molestation
murder
rape
child molestation
lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
I doubt many parents would be, but what if they were? Would the death penalty then be justified for the disobedient child?
lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
I think that statement is pretty self-explanatory..
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i've been chewing on it for a couple of days, since glory asked me if i could claim to be free of that sin when i was married
my answer was yes, because i took my wedding vows seriously - "to forsake all others"
when i was married, i did not deliberately look upon another woman to lust after her
"to lust after her" doesn't mean recognizing that the girl at the beach in a bikini is hot, it means staring at her while she walks away and imagining lustful things
"to lust after her" doesn't mean recognizing that veronica hamel was a fox on hill street blues, it means taking that image in your head to bed with you
"to lust after her" speaks to intent, to the reason you look upon a woman
lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
Murder, absolutely. I’ve always supported the death penalty for premeditated murder.
As for the latter two, it depends in part on the circumstances. I don’t call for the death penalty for my father who molested me. I do think he deserves punishment, but not death.
I also know someone who committed rape, who is currently incarcerated. Many would wash their hands, walk away, and consider him unredeemable. In a way I do understand this line of thinking, yet I’m trying to see him as more than the crime he committed. I want to see him reformed when he comes out of prison, and am trying to support him in this. It’s so easy to dehumanise those who commit horrific crimes, and so much harder to see them as a person rather than their crime. But in doing so, maybe, just maybe, we can help them reform?
Do you understand why this is the answer to your challenge?
In today's society, the parents would lose the children to the state. Are you sure you want to advocate this?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i appreciate your sentiments and agree that, in the individual case it can be argued. It could be argued for murder, that the murderer is redeemable.
this touches on the reason for laws and punishments - one thing i was surprised to find in the discussion with glory the other day is that some people don't believe that punitive laws have a deterrent effect
how do you feel about that?
do punitive laws, promptly applied, have a deterrent effect on the rest of society?
if we had harsh laws about murder that were swiftly and publicly applied, do you believe they would reduce the incidence of murder?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
No loving ones would.
While I disagree with your position on this topic, Pete, my heart does go out to you. I would call for the death of ANY adult who molests a child or rapes another individual. My reason is because I see it as the only way to protect future victims. However, that doesn't mean that more effort shouldn't be made in support and understanding towards the victims who are conflicted with such outcomes.
That would depend ... did they refuse to take out the trash or did they beat the next door neighbor's child to death with a baseball bat? It should be fairly obvious to all that there is a difference
between being a brat as compared to a maniacal predator.
lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
You make a fair point here. However, a murderer has taken the decision away from another person over whether or not they live or die. They have chosen to prematurely end the life of another, and so it seems fitting that the punishment for such is to lose ones own life.
Such laws can have a deterrent effect on some people, sure. But for someone who is say driven to murder and wants to be a serial killer, or someone who is driven to rape and wants to be a serial rapist, I don’t think any law one imposes, or any penalty as a result of that will necessarily have a deterrent effect. But other crimes not involving serial rapists and murderers, such as a spur of the moment crime of passion whereby one murders their cheating spouse will likely also not be deterred, because the consequences of their actions is likely the lowest priority in the killers mind.
The biggest issue with harsh laws promptly applied is the drastically increased risk of executing an innocent person. A posthumous pardon does nothing to bring back the life of the innocent person. We have to be absolutely sure the person is guilty.
lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
You actually surprised me with your position on this, considering how liberal you are in many of your other positions. I do understand your line of thinking, and I’m not totally against what you’re saying. However, I’m a firm believer that if it is possible for someone to reform and redeem themselves, they should be given that chance.
glorydaz
Well-known member
:thumb:
lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
Of course there is a difference. So the question then arises what does the Bible mean by “disobedient children”?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
an eye for an eye - a principle that has some justification
kinda hard to apply to rape and adultery
without cracking jokes :banana:
i don't know much about serial killers' motivations other than what we're all familiar with from pop culture, but i would suspect that a lot of the appeal is in risking getting caught and getting away with it - the gamble makes it exciting
to be an effective deterrent, a punishment must be sure, swift and harsh
this is recognized in the military, both in controlling behavior in the ranks, and in the imposition of martial law
it would be interesting to see data separating "crime of passion" murder from all the other kinds - not sure how you'd go about doing that - is a driveby shooting of one gang member by a different gang's member a crime of passion?
i have a difficulty with this line of argumentation - it's often put forward by those who are anti-capital punishment
my difficulty is this - yes, a wrongfully convicted person may be released after, let's say thirty years of imprisonment, during which he has missed being a father to his children, a husband to his wife, a son and brother to his family, an opportunity to build a career during his most productive years, on top of enduring thirty years of degradation as a prisoner - how do you pretend that you can make up for any of that?
That's why the Bible didn't do that.