This day have I begotten you

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I've proposed my answer to your inquiry by noting a common Trinitarian one that explains that with Jesus it was only his humanity that died, his mortal being, while his immortal being is NOT subject to death. - one can jerry-rig or juxta-pose it anyway they wish. Still, that which is incorruptible in nature cannot suffer corruption of any kind. That which is deathless, cannot taste death. - hence the mystery of the Incarnation....where God is experiencing space, time and mortality in some way THRU Jesus.

This answers a question that has not been asked. I didn't ask what part of Jesus died. I didn't even ask whether Jesus died. The bible flatly asserts that He did and that our salvation is predicated upon His resurrection FROM THE DEAD.

The question is very simple.

What is death? What does it mean to die?

I know that those here who reject the deity of Christ will not answer and so I'm not even paying any attention to them any longer. But if you want to offer a direct answer to that specific question, we can discuss it. Just make it your answer. I just don't care what all the various groups in the world offer as answers. This is not a matter of opinion. It speaks to the defining issue of the Christian faith. To suggest that its a matter of opinion is to undermine the truth of not only Christianity and the whole of the bible but of the nature of truth itself. God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ either died the same way we die or Christianity is a made up fairy tale.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
The question is very simple.

What is death? What does it mean to die?
The answer may not be as simple as you wish.

Death is a failure to live and move and breath and be. It is when there is no breath, no spirit, no inspiration or respiration to move the body any longer: the separation of spirit and body.

In the Bible, this may refer in the literal sense to those whose own spirit has departed from their body, or it may refer analogously to those who live in a state of perpetual separation from THE Spirit. Both meanings are well-demonstrated in the following verse:

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
...and the same minds ridiculously postulate that the Apokalypse-Revelation was penned sometime circa 95AD based essentially on unreliable sketchy words from third party sources and a supposed martyr named Antipas who was concocted to support their mother church historicism...
Setting a single date of authorship seems silly, when the work in question is undoubtedly of multiple authorship. :p
 

daqq

Well-known member
This answers a question that has not been asked. I didn't ask what part of Jesus died. I didn't even ask whether Jesus died. The bible flatly asserts that He did and that our salvation is predicated upon His resurrection FROM THE DEAD.

The question is very simple.

What is death? What does it mean to die?

I know that those here who reject the deity of Christ will not answer and so I'm not even paying any attention to them any longer. But if you want to offer a direct answer to that specific question, we can discuss it. Just make it your answer. I just don't care what all the various groups in the world offer as answers. This is not a matter of opinion. It speaks to the defining issue of the Christian faith. To suggest that its a matter of opinion is to undermine the truth of not only Christianity and the whole of the bible but of the nature of truth itself. God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ either died the same way we die or Christianity is a made up fairy tale.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You still refuse to answer what I asked of both you and Nick in the same post repeated and posted twice now. If you wish to put people on ignore and not participate in this thread then please go start your own thread with your questions. Is it upright or decent to troll and spam peoples threads while ignoring the person who started the thread and ignoring and the thread topic? It sure seems pompous and arrogant; especially when you are demanding that others agree with your creed over and above what the scripture actually teaches. You are demanding that others agree with your creeds of men, which you yourself are not able to actually prove from the scripture, while you have denied the words of Messiah posted to you twice now right here in this thread in the form of a creed taken straight from the Gospel of John which you also used to concoct your own supposed creeds. The Master nowhere demands worship but you demand that people worship him as God Almighty. You are deceived and a deceiver.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Setting a single date of authorship seems silly, when the work in question is undoubtedly of multiple authorship. :p

When I see how much of it the Master fulfilled in his walk in the Gospel accounts, and how he was with the wild beasts of Hos 13:7-11, Dan 7:2-7, and Rev 13:2, during his own desert wilderness trials in Mark 1:13, (and the Angels ministered to him thereafter), I know who wrote it by the Testimony of the Master in those same Gospel accounts. Paul likewise confirms it and says it is where he received his gospel. Imagine that; Paul received his water immersion of Yohanan toward repentance by the hands of Ananias at Dam-meshek Qumran, and Paul then went out into the desert of Arabia to immerse, as Ananias had admonished him to do, that is, to immerse with and in Meshiah; and he received his gospel not by man but by the (book of) the Revelation of Meshiah Ι̅H, (Y.E.), (Gal 1:12 KJV). Thus it is just as the opening of the Apokalypse says, "The Revelation of Meshiah Ι̅H, which Elohim gave to him, to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass", and we know that when the Master was raised from the dead, and had commanded his apostles, he sat down at the right hand of the Father. How therefore is he supposed to have received this new revelation from the Father some sixty some odd years later, circa 95AD? after already having sat down at the right hand of the Father? Can there be any new revelation after already being seated at the right hand of the Father? Nay, but he received the Apokalypse in the desert wilderness trials, just as Mark 1:13 strongly implies, and as Paul likewise confirms. And when Herodias desired the head of Yohanan the Immerser how was it brought to her? Was it not upon a πινακι writing tablet or table? Why would they bring his head upon a writing table which they render as a platter? as if for food? Was he not the greatest of all the prophets out of men having been born of nashim? Just what exactly was in his kohanim head? :chuckle:
 

daqq

Well-known member
This answers a question that has not been asked. I didn't ask what part of Jesus died. I didn't even ask whether Jesus died. The bible flatly asserts that He did and that our salvation is predicated upon His resurrection FROM THE DEAD.

The question is very simple.

What is death? What does it mean to die?

I know that those here who reject the deity of Christ will not answer and so I'm not even paying any attention to them any longer. But if you want to offer a direct answer to that specific question, we can discuss it. Just make it your answer. I just don't care what all the various groups in the world offer as answers. This is not a matter of opinion. It speaks to the defining issue of the Christian faith. To suggest that its a matter of opinion is to undermine the truth of not only Christianity and the whole of the bible but of the nature of truth itself. God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ either died the same way we die or Christianity is a made up fairy tale.

Resting in Him,
Clete

There are various ways to die but what counts is how the Master teaches it. His teaching may clearly be seen in prophetic passages such as Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and if understood, and if a person actually believes that the words of the Master will never pass away, then the following statement may also be understood in the same kind of way:

Revelation 1:17-18 W/H - και οτε ειδον αυτον επεσα προς τους ποδας αυτου ως νεκρος και εθηκεν την δεξιαν αυτου επ εμε λεγων μη φοβου εγω ειμι ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος και ο ζων και εγενομην νεκρος και ιδου ζων ειμι εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων και εχω τας κλεις του θανατου και του αδου

What kind of death does the above statement concern? One may perceive an understanding of the supernal and spiritual way through the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts.

The Master issues forth and departs from the temple; and his talmidim come to him, to show him the magnificent stones and workmanship of the temple. The Master says, Take no heed of all these things! Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down! But having been seated upon the mount of Olives, Petro, and Yaakob, and Yohanan, and Andreo come to him privately, saying, Foretell to us when these things shall come to pass, and what is the sign of your parousia and the consummation of the age?

And the Master answers them, Take heed that no one deceive you; for many shall come in my name, saying, "I am the Messiah", or even, "I am of the Messiah", and they shall deceive many, (beware of men, that is to say, beware of the anthropon-manfaced countenances which are false testimony spirits gone out into the world, and which creep in unawares while you feast in the Word). And you shall hear of spiritual wars and reports of spiritual warfare; see that you be not troubled, for all these things must come to pass: but the end is not yet, (for it is yet for the mo`ed appointment, Daniel 11:27). For there shall rise up ethnos upon ethnos, and dominion upon dominion, (Dan 2 and 7, for every man has his dominion-empire, Dan 4, and the kingdom of Elohim is within you, Luke 17:20, 21), and there shall be famines and seismos-earth tremors according to those places, ("man-quakings" and "man-tremors", that is, the body, for every man has his land; both the erets outer bounds flesh and the adamah soil of the heart as in the parable of the sower). All these are the beginning of birthpang-throes, (for a son is about to be born into the kingdom). Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you, (Matthew 24:9), and you shall be hated of all the heathen for the sake of my name. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many. And because lawlessness shall be increased the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end; the same shall be delivered, (Matthew 24:13). And this good news Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the habitable land for a witness to all the heathen: and then shall the end come, (Matthew 24, Mark 13).

And this is the perfect order given by way of the Testimony of the Master:

1) Many false Messiah spirits claiming to be "of Messiah" shall deceive many.
2) Spiritual warfare and rumors-reports of spiritual warfare but the end is not yet.
3) Babylon, Maday-Medes, Paras-Persia: Sar Yavan over Sar Paras.
4) Famines and fastings, tremors of the land of the man, birth pangs, woes, and throes.
5) THEN SHALL THEY DELIVER YOU UP TO THEIR SANHEDRINS AND SHALL KILL YOU.
6) Many shall be offended, many more false prophets, Torahlessness abounding, no love.
7) BUT HE THAT ENDURES UNTO THE END SHALL BE DELIVERED.

Each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times).

Thus one must empty himself or herself, and according to the above, will die even before the end comes; just as the Master himself did in the desert wilderness trials: for anyone who refuses to bow to the beast, or refuses to bow to his own twin-goat Baal, the same must die, (Rev 13:15). But anyone who bows the knee to the beast, or to his own twin-goat Baal, the same does not overcome: for one must be willing to die, and to jeopard his or her own soul in the high places of the field, (Judges 5:2, 18, 19, 20, 21), but anyone who bows to the beast or his own twin-goat Baal in that hour is overcome by the beasts of man. Whoever seeks to save his soul shall lose it in the high places of the field. And that is exactly what Paul likewise means by reprobate-castaways, after having expounded that hour of his own trial in 2Cor 12:1-9, when he mentions reprobate-castaways in 2Cor 13:5-6, (for the kingdom of the heavens is like a net). Take heed therefore that you not end up twice dead; you who openly reject the Testimony of Messiah before men, and blatantly ignore the scripture.
 

daqq

Well-known member
There are various ways to die but what counts is how the Master teaches it. His teaching may clearly be seen in prophetic passages such as Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and if understood, and if a person actually believes that the words of the Master will never pass away, then the following statement may also be understood in the same kind of way:

Revelation 1:17-18 W/H - και οτε ειδον αυτον επεσα προς τους ποδας αυτου ως νεκρος και εθηκεν την δεξιαν αυτου επ εμε λεγων μη φοβου εγω ειμι ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος και ο ζων και εγενομην νεκρος και ιδου ζων ειμι εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων και εχω τας κλεις του θανατου και του αδου

What kind of death does the above statement concern? One may perceive an understanding of the supernal and spiritual way through the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts.

The Master issues forth and departs from the temple; and his talmidim come to him, to show him the magnificent stones and workmanship of the temple. The Master says, Take no heed of all these things! Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down! But having been seated upon the mount of Olives, Petro, and Yaakob, and Yohanan, and Andreo come to him privately, saying, Foretell to us when these things shall come to pass, and what is the sign of your parousia and the consummation of the age?

And the Master answers them, Take heed that no one deceive you; for many shall come in my name, saying, "I am the Messiah", or even, "I am of the Messiah", and they shall deceive many, (beware of men, that is to say, beware of the anthropon-manfaced countenances which are false testimony spirits gone out into the world, and which creep in unawares while you feast in the Word). And you shall hear of spiritual wars and reports of spiritual warfare; see that you be not troubled, for all these things must come to pass: but the end is not yet, (for it is yet for the mo`ed appointment, Daniel 11:27). For there shall rise up ethnos upon ethnos, and dominion upon dominion, (Dan 2 and 7, for every man has his dominion-empire, Dan 4, and the kingdom of Elohim is within you, Luke 17:20, 21), and there shall be famines and seismos-earth tremors according to those places, ("man-quakings" and "man-tremors", that is, the body, for every man has his land; both the erets outer bounds flesh and the adamah soil of the heart as in the parable of the sower). All these are the beginning of birthpang-throes, (for a son is about to be born into the kingdom). Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you, (Matthew 24:9), and you shall be hated of all the heathen for the sake of my name. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many. And because lawlessness shall be increased the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end; the same shall be delivered, (Matthew 24:13). And this good news Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the habitable land for a witness to all the heathen: and then shall the end come, (Matthew 24, Mark 13).

And this is the perfect order given by way of the Testimony of the Master:

1) Many false Messiah spirits claiming to be "of Messiah" shall deceive many.
2) Spiritual warfare and rumors-reports of spiritual warfare but the end is not yet.
3) Babylon, Maday-Medes, Paras-Persia: Sar Yavan over Sar Paras.
4) Famines and fastings, tremors of the land of the man, birth pangs, woes, and throes.
5) THEN SHALL THEY DELIVER YOU UP TO THEIR SANHEDRINS AND SHALL KILL YOU.
6) Many shall be offended, many more false prophets, Torahlessness abounding, no love.
7) BUT HE THAT ENDURES UNTO THE END SHALL BE DELIVERED.

Each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times).

Thus one must empty himself or herself, and according to the above, will die even before the end comes; just as the Master himself did in the desert wilderness trials: for anyone who refuses to bow to the beast, or refuses to bow to his own twin-goat Baal, the same must die, (Rev 13:15). But anyone who bows the knee to the beast, or to his own twin-goat Baal, the same does not overcome: for one must be willing to die, and to jeopard his or her own soul in the high places of the field, (Judges 5:2, 18, 19, 20, 21), but anyone who bows to the beast or his own twin-goat Baal in that hour is overcome by the beasts of man. Whoever seeks to save his soul shall lose it in the high places of the field. And that is exactly what Paul likewise means by reprobate-castaways, after having expounded that hour of his own trial in 2Cor 12:1-9, when he mentions reprobate-castaways in 2Cor 13:5-6, (for the kingdom of the heavens is like a net). Take heed therefore that you not end up twice dead; you who openly reject the Testimony of Messiah before men, and blatantly ignore the scripture.

John 11:25-26 - The Ι̅H said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life; the one faithfully trusting into me, though dying, shall live: and every one who is living and is faithfully trusting into me shall absolutely not die into the aiona!

Revelation 1:9 - I Yohanan, your brother and fellow-partaker with you in the tribulation and kingdom and patience in
Ι̅H, was in the isle that is called Patmω by way of the Logos-Word of Elohim and (by way of) the Testimony of Ι̅H.

Revelation 21:4 - And I saw thrones, and those seated upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were truncated by way of the Testimony of
Ι̅H, and by way of the Logos of Elohim, and which had not bowed to the beast, neither to his image, and which had not received the mark upon the forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and they reigned with Meshiah a thousand years.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart and stiffen no more your neck, (Deut 10:16), O stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears; you do always resist the Holy Spirit, and as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they killed those who showed beforehand of the coming of the Righteous-Just One: of whom you are now also become betrayers and murderers, (Acts 7:51-52).

The Logos-Word of the Testimony of Messiah is self-circumcision: if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and cast it from you; if your right hand offends, you cut if off and cast it from you; if your foot is always running swiftly into mischief, cut it off and cast it from you; if your carnal heart and mind is clouding your judgment and has become an abomination in the sight of Elohim, get to chopping and cut off your own head by putting on the mind of Messiah by way of his holy Testimony which is your sanctification and salvation. :chuckle:
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Keypurr,

One of many mistakes you make is thinking that I care what you think about me or anything else. My dog's left dew claw garners more of my respect than you do.



I'll say it one last time for good measure...

If it was not God Who died on the cross, we are all still in our sins. One can be ignorant of the fact the Jesus is God and be saved but one cannot actively deny it and rightly call themselves saved nor even Christian.

Resting in Him,
Clete

:wave2:

Another stupid statement, you just don't get it.
GOD CAN NOT DIE. If yours can you got the wrong God.
 

daqq

Well-known member

Amen, no man has seen him.


Most will not believe that.

Nope, they cannot believe it because their minds are not regenerated by the Testimony of Messiah. If they truly believed the Testimony of Messiah then they would begin to see it. But they believe the doctrines and traditions of men taught to them by men with their own creeds and dogmas. This fact has been shown over and over again throughout this board; and what do they do? their only alternative is to plug their ears and attack: murder, death, kill, all the day long, just as their own judgmental high-minded Pharisee fathers did to the Master himself. They clearly do not believe the Testimony of the Master found in the Gospel accounts.
 

S-word

BANNED
Banned
Nope, they cannot believe it because their minds are not regenerated by the Testimony of Messiah. If they truly believed the Testimony of Messiah then they would begin to see it. But they believe the doctrines and traditions of men taught to them by men with their own creeds and dogmas. This fact has been shown over and over again throughout this board; and what do they do? their only alternative is to plug their ears and attack: murder, death, kill, all the day long, just as their own judgmental high-minded Pharisee fathers did to the Master himself. They clearly do not believe the Testimony of the Master found in the Gospel accounts.

Correct! They clearly do not believe the Testimony of the Master (The Son of Man) as spoken through his obedient servant, 'The Man Jesus,' who he filled with his spirit, which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; :You are my Son, (My Chosen Heir) this day I have begotten thee.

Isaiah 42: 1; GNB Catholic Study Edition; The Lord says; "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen----the one I have 'CHOSEN' I have filled him with my spirit, and he will bring Justice to every nation."

Good News Bible, Catholic Study Edition; Acts 17:30-31; 30 God has overlooked the times when people did not know him, but now he commands all of them everywhere to turn away from their evil ways. 31 For he has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death!”
 

daqq

Well-known member
Correct! They clearly do not believe the Testimony of the Master (The Son of Man) as spoken through his obedient servant, 'The Man Jesus,' who he filled with his spirit, which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; :You are my Son, (My Chosen Heir) this day I have begotten thee.

Isaiah 42: 1; GNB Catholic Study Edition; The Lord says; "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen----the one I have 'CHOSEN' I have filled him with my spirit, and he will bring Justice to every nation."

Good News Bible, Catholic Study Edition; Acts 17:30-31; 30 God has overlooked the times when people did not know him, but now he commands all of them everywhere to turn away from their evil ways. 31 For he has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death!”

It is good to finally agree. :)
 

daqq

Well-known member
So who was the anointed one who chose the man Jesus as his heir?

The Master Teacher Ι̅H is who I understand to be the Anointed one; for he says so himself in Luke 4:17-21 which is quoting Isaiah 61:1-2a as follows:

Luke 4:17-21 ASV
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, To-day hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.


However the Anointing Who was upon the Anointed one, and abode-remained upon him throughout his physical ministry, is also called Ι̅H , ("The Ι̅H", that is, generally with the article), and He may be found in Genesis 1:2, "brooding upon the waters", (like a dove), and likewise in Matthew 3:16 and again in Romans 8:9 as follows:

Genesis 1:2 OG LXX-Septuagint
2 η δε γη ην αορατος και ακατασκευαστος και σκοτος επανω της αβυσσου και πνευμα θεου επεφερετο επανω του υδατος

http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_001.htm

Matthew 3:16 W/H
16 βαπτισθεις δε ο ιησους ευθυς ανεβη απο του υδατος και ιδου ηνεωχθησαν οι ουρανοι και ειδεν πνευμα θεου καταβαινον ωσει περιστεραν ερχομενον επ αυτον

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/3-16.htm

Romans 8:9 W/H
9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλα εν πνευματι ειπερ πνευμα θεου οικει εν υμιν ει δε τις πνευμα χριστου ουκ εχει ουτος ουκ εστιν αυτου

http://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-9.htm

Even though one may not read Greek all that really needs to be understand herein above, (simply for the single point alone which I make here), is the rare anarthrous usage of πνευμα θεου, which is the Greek equivalent for "Ruach Elohim" from Gen 1:2 in the Hebrew text, which has no article because it is a name, (in the Hebrew text; for proper nouns, names, do not tolerate an article in Hebrew), and thus the phrase is carried over into the Greek Septuagint without an article, (anarthrous). The only other place we find this anarthrous phrase in the Greek N/T is where Paul uses it once more in 1Cor 7:40. This fact alone therefore holds much weight; and the fact that Paul uses it in Rom 8:9, by the context in which he uses it, reveals that he is equating πνευμα θεου, (Ruach Elohim), with πνευμα χριστου, (Ruach Meshiah).

Therefore, I say:

Genesis 1:2 - Matthew 3:16 - Romans 8:9
πνευμα θεου (Ruach Elohim) = πνευμα χριστου (Ruach Meshiah)
And this One is the Anointing, the
Ι̅H, Who abode-remained upon the Anointed one, Ι̅H.
 

daqq

Well-known member

The Master Teacher Ι̅H is who I understand to be the Anointed one; for he says so himself in Luke 4:17-21 which is quoting Isaiah 61:1-2a as follows:

Luke 4:17-21 ASV
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, To-day hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.


However the Anointing Who was upon the Anointed one, and abode-remained upon him throughout his physical ministry, is also called Ι̅H , ("The Ι̅H", that is, generally with the article), and He may be found in Genesis 1:2, "brooding upon the waters", (like a dove), and likewise in Matthew 3:16 and again in Romans 8:9 as follows:

Genesis 1:2 OG LXX-Septuagint
2 η δε γη ην αορατος και ακατασκευαστος και σκοτος επανω της αβυσσου και πνευμα θεου επεφερετο επανω του υδατος

http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_001.htm

Matthew 3:16 W/H
16 βαπτισθεις δε ο ιησους ευθυς ανεβη απο του υδατος και ιδου ηνεωχθησαν οι ουρανοι και ειδεν πνευμα θεου καταβαινον ωσει περιστεραν ερχομενον επ αυτον

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/3-16.htm

Romans 8:9 W/H
9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλα εν πνευματι ειπερ πνευμα θεου οικει εν υμιν ει δε τις πνευμα χριστου ουκ εχει ουτος ουκ εστιν αυτου

http://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-9.htm

Even though one may not read Greek all that really needs to be understand herein above, (simply for the single point alone which I make here), is the rare anarthrous usage of πνευμα θεου, which is the Greek equivalent for "Ruach Elohim" from Gen 1:2 in the Hebrew text, which has no article because it is a name, (in the Hebrew text; for proper nouns, names, do not tolerate an article in Hebrew), and thus the phrase is carried over into the Greek Septuagint without an article, (anarthrous). The only other place we find this anarthrous phrase in the Greek N/T is where Paul uses it once more in 1Cor 7:40. This fact alone therefore holds much weight; and the fact that Paul uses it in Rom 8:9, by the context in which he uses it, reveals that he is equating πνευμα θεου, (Ruach Elohim), with πνευμα χριστου, (Ruach Meshiah).

Therefore, I say:

Genesis 1:2 - Matthew 3:16 - Romans 8:9
πνευμα θεου (Ruach Elohim) = πνευμα χριστου (Ruach Meshiah)
And this One is the Anointing, the
Ι̅H, Who abode-remained upon the Anointed one, Ι̅H.

So then, if we simply take those three passages and render the original Hebrew from Genesis 1:2 as a proper noun or name, ("Ruach Elohim" in English with no article), look at what comes through in those three passages:

Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning Elohim cut-down-created the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the abyss: and Ruach Elohim was brooding over-upon the face of the waters.

Matthew 3:16
16 And Ι̅H having been immersed by and by came up from the water: and behold, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw Ruach Elohim descending as a dove, and coming-lighting over-upon him:

Romans 8:9
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that Ruach Elohim dwells in you: but if anyone has not Ruach Meshiah, the same is not his.

And the other New Testament Greek usage of the phrase:

1 Corinthians 7:40
40 But she is happier if she abide as she is, according to my judgment: and I do think that I also have Ruach Elohim.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
The parallel between Gen 1 and Jesus' baptism is interesting both generally and particularly in light of the topic here.

But what if I told you there was a competing passage with the same parallels?

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1:35 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπεν αὐτῇ Πνεῦμα ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ καὶ δύναμις ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται υἱὸς θεοῦ

versus

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

1:2 ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος

And I should also point out perhaps the parallel between waters and the womb.
 

daqq

Well-known member
The parallel between Gen 1 and Jesus' baptism is interesting both generally and particularly in light of the topic here.

But what if I told you there was a competing passage with the same parallels?

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1:35 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπεν αὐτῇ Πνεῦμα ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ καὶ δύναμις ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται υἱὸς θεοῦ

versus

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

1:2 ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος

And I should also point out perhaps the parallel between waters and the womb.

Yeah, that is interesting, however both Matthew and Luke use terminology pertaining to plant life reproduction, (tikto), and the womb is never actually mentioned in the nativity narratives, (not until Luke 2:23, μητραν, which is quoting Torah, (LXX)), but rather, "en gastri", (in belly), and "koilia", (cavity, as in the chest cavity where the heart is, as also used for the "belly" of the great fish in the Septuagint and N/T Yonah-Jonas passages), and therefore I do believe it pertains to how the Seed of the Word is planted in the soil of the heart and begins to form in us, (and thus, it concerns allegorical teachings of supernal and spiritual truths). This thinking is much more pronounced in the Protoevangelium of James, or Apokalypse Yaakob, where the Angel tells Maryah that she will conceive by the Logos-Word of the Master of All:

Protoevangelium of James (Apokalypse Yaakob) 11:1-3
1 Καὶ ἔλαβεν τὴν κάλπιν καὶ ἐξῆλθεν γεμίσαι ὕδωρ. Καὶ ἰδοὺ φωνὴ λέγουσα αὐτῇ· "Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη· ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ· εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν." Καὶ περιέβλεπεν τὰ δεξιὰ καὶ τὰ ἀριστερὰ Μαρία πόθεν αὕτη εἴη ἡ φωνή. Καὶ ἔντρομος γενομένη εἰσῄει εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτῆς καὶ ἀναπαύσασα τὴν κάλπιν ἔλαβεν τὴν πορφύραν καὶ ἐκάθισεν ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου αὐτῆς καὶ ἧλκεν τὴν πορφύραν.
2 Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ἔστη ἐνώπιον αὐτῆς λέγων· "Μὴ φοβοῦ, Μαρία· εὗρες γὰρ χάριν ἐνώπιον τοῦ πάντων Δεσπότου. Συνλήμψῃ ἐκ Λόγου αὐτοῦ." Ἡ δὲ ἀκούσασα Μαρία διεκρίθη ἐν ἑαυτῇ λέγουσα· "Ἐγὼ συνλήμψομαι ἀπὸ Κυρίου Θεοῦ ζῶντος καὶ γεννήσω ὡς πᾶσα γυνὴ γεννᾷ;"
3 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ ὁ ἄγγελος Κυρίου· "Οὐχ οὕτως, Μαρία. Δύναμις γὰρ Θεοῦ ἐπισκιάσει σοι· διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἐκ σοῦ ἅγιον κληθήσεται υἱὸς Ὑψίστου. Καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ι̅H· αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν." Καὶ εἶπε Μαρία· "Ἰδοὺ ἡ δούλη Κυρίου κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ. Γένοιτό μοι κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμά σου."

Protoevangelium of James (Apokalypse Yaakob) 11:1-3
1 And she took a pitcher, going forth to draw water, (which is the time of evening, as it is written in the Torah). And behold, a voice, saying to her, Greetings, you who are highly favored; the Master is with you! And Maryah looked roundabout, to the right and to the left, to see from where the voice had come: and she went trembling, entering into her house, and set down the pitcher. And having taken the purple she sat upon her seat and began to draw it out.
2 And behold, an Angel of YHWH stood before her, saying, Fear not, Maryah; for you have found favor before the Master of All, and you shall conceive-capture-retain seed from His Logos-Word. But having heard this Maryah disputed within herself, saying, Shall I conceive from (the Word) of YHWH Elohim the Living and bring forth the same as every woman brings forth?
3 And the Angel of YHWH said to her, Not in that way, Maryah; but the power of Elohim shall overshadow you, wherefore also the holy one being generated from you shall be called a Son of the Most High: and you shall call his name Ι̅H, for he shall deliver his people from their sins. And Maryah said, Behold, the maidservant of YHWH is before Him: let it be unto me according to your rhema-word.
 
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