"Therefore, Abortion Must Remain Legal"

[Alate_One]

Right, this is science for Alate_One. Look at some pictures to decide which humans can live and which can die.

I'm asking, which one is a human. You want to call every human cell a human being. Ultimately that's your criteria.

Also, it's rather rich coming from you complaining about how something looks shouldn't matter. Pictures of aborted fetuses and models of tiny humans have been THE tool of the pro-life movement since the beginning. Indeed that's even the purpose of the forced ultrasound bills, forcing women to look at what they're planning on aborting. Please get off of your high horse and come back to reality.

If this were true, then pro-lifers would claim pregnant woman could be killed legally. I realize your picture was provocative and created without thought, but it's so wrong you should be ashamed.

They certainly don't seem to care if women die of illegal abortions. "Served her right" is the thinking I've seen. Plus there's the issue of simply not caring about the rights or feelings of the woman involved. Instead you're going to put the "rights" of a single cell ahead of a full grown woman. :dizzy:

 

[Lighthouse]

You seem to have ONE special skill: criticising comments that only happened in your own head.

Instead of incapable of finding a councellor, try unlikely to ever look for a councellor. The outcome of making abortion illegal is bound to be women trying not to draw attention to their illegal behaviour.

So women would never seek counseling when they find themselves pregnant when they did not want to be?

If abortion were criminal they would be less likely to consider it and even if wanting to get one they could still seek counseling without telling the counselor they were going to get an abortion. They could even tell the counselor they were considering it, and they would be breaking no laws, therefore no legal action could be taken against them.

Living under tyrants that tell you you can't have guns has made you paranoid.

p.s. it's you Yanks that buggered up perfectly good English spelling.

I looked it up. It's misspelled.

If you were somewhat more aware of real life LH or could empathise then you would know that when a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy and that in law she had no other option but to remain that way, then a counsellor is not going to change that and therefore will hardly be high on her to-do list.

Because a woman in a situation she doesn't want to be in doesn't want to talk to anybody.

P.S.
Learn how to spell in international English.

See above.

 

[gcthomas]

Lighthouse, try looking up 'unlikely'. You'll find it does not mean 'never'.

But you might need help, since you didn't manage to successfully look up the British English spelling of the word counselor/counsellor:

counsellor Pronunciation: /ˈkaʊns(ə)lə/
(US counselor)
Definition of counsellor
noun
1a person trained to give guidance on personal or psychological problems:
Eg. a marriage counsellor​

From the Oxford English dictionary.

 

[gcthomas]

So if we put an old person that is burdening the social security system to sleep that will make them not a person because they won't feel pain or suffer. Wow, you just solved a huge problem. You should look at crime statistics by race and see if you can solve any more problems. You're such a genius.

I'm glad you brought that up, because the US, as in most of the world, defines death in terms of the failure of the central nervous system to sustain electrical activity. This is analogous to the criterion that I suggest for the start of life, too.

 

[LKmommy]

You seem to have ONE special skill: criticising comments that only happened in your own head.

Instead of incapable of finding a councellor, try unlikely to ever look for a councellor. The outcome of making abortion illegal is bound to be women trying not to draw attention to their illegal behaviour.

p.s. it's you Yanks that buggered up perfectly good English spelling.

Lighthouse, try looking up 'unlikely'. You'll find it does not mean 'never'.

But you might need help, since you didn't manage to successfully look up the British English spelling of the word counselor/counsellor:

counsellor Pronunciation: /ˈkaʊns(ə)lə/
(US counselor)
Definition of counsellor
noun
1a person trained to give guidance on personal or psychological problems:
Eg. a marriage counsellor​

Which yanks wold those be GC? Seems you live in a glass house and should stop pushing blame on others.

ah yes UK, and do you know what "counseling" services are offered in a Planned Parenthood in America? Lets see, um they ask if you know what you are doing and if anyone is forcing you to do it. You say yep and no and boom....you are "counseled" and can proceed with the killing.

Abortion should not remain legal as it is against the rights of a not yet born human. A Fetus SHOULD have rights of life to not only prevent them from being vacummed sucked out of a womb, but also the right to not be forced to take drugs or alcohol. See, it is legal to drink and dope while preggers here in these good States *sarcasm* Even legal (meaning no criminal consequence to the mother) to birth that baby who was forced to those conditions.

Sick, sick, sick are those who push for their own "self entitled, me me me, my needs, my wants, my happiness, my right to this, my right to drink and drug, my right to self destruct and take whomever else down with me attitude" VS. a life that was created.

 

[gcthomas]

Lkm, if the counselling is substandard, then why not campaign to mandate a higher standard? Or do you prefer a lower standard to help with your antiabortion stand?

You claim those who disagree with you are 'sick', but you have not tried to explain why you say that. If you want abortion criminalised, you need to persuade those who disagree with you, not just throw out insults. I have given reasons for my position above, and my justification for considering the start of life is consistent with the US law governing the end of life.

Do you disagree with the nervous system definition for deciding when someone is dead at the end of life? What would you have instead? There is a whole nine months to pick from for a foetus - WHY have you picked day one? (an 'it's just obvious' type of argument will get you no closer to criminalisation of abortion, so consider carefully just why you hold your view. I am genuinely interested in your reasoning, and I will politely and thoughtfully respond.)

Ps. I'm not really interested in an argument over typos. My response was to an unnecessary criticism of a locally correct spelling. The later ones you found (well done and thanks!) were mangled by an iPad touch keyboard.

 

[alwight]

See above. [re "counsellor"]

If you are unable to tolerate even the way other people also quite correctly spell words, that there is often no absolute right and wrong way, who only thinks in terms of absolutes, black and white, then what would be the point in discussing abortion with you?

 

[alwight]

Ps. I'm not really interested in an argument over typos. My response was to an unnecessary criticism of a locally correct spelling. The later ones you found (well done and thanks!) were mangled by an iPad touch keyboard.

Yes you were absolutely correct the first time gc.

 

[Stripe]

Because it's nearly impossible to protect zygotes without incredible invasions into a woman's privacy and reproductive decisions.

It means banning a few drugs. We bans drugs all the time. :idunno:

And you can't convince me, nor most of the rest of humanity that a one celled zygote deserves the same rights as a human being anyway. Asserting it over and over doesn't make it true.

You cannot convince us that the offspring of a man and a woman is not another human being. Asserting the baby is not a baby over and over doesn't make it true.

A zygote inside of a woman's body cannot be seen or detected by any means I'm aware of.

..therefore murdering the tiniest of innocent babies is OK in your book?

The only way you can "protect" zygotes is to ban all forms of hormonal birth control leaving you with condoms and surgical means.

Yes, and?

If you do that, you'll have a massive black market in the substances.

And therefore...?

What do you plan to do? Throw women in jail for using birth control pills?

Nope.

Screen them for having IUDs?

Nope.

Follow women to see if they miss their normal cycles, then prosecute them if they fail to give birth?

Nope.

Arguments from consequence aren't rational.

Try to have a rational discussion instead of ranting hysterically. :up:

 

[gcthomas]

And, stripe, asserting that a foetus is fully a person will not make it true, either. Try persuading rather than just dismissing.

 

[LKmommy]

Lim, if the counselling is substandard, then why not campaign to mandate a higher standard? Or do you prefer a lower standard to help with your antiabortion stand?

Life begins at fertilization of the egg. It requires a womb amongst other things to continue to develop and grow. Either one is pregnant or they are not....you can't be "just a little pregnant".

As far as counseling at Planned Parenthood, that is my "two cents" it being a joke here, but peddled as something so resourceful or helpful to a woman (witnessed first hand).

You claim those who disagree with you are 'sick', but you have not tried to explain why you say that. If you want abortion criminalised, you need to persuade those who disagree with you, not just out insults.

Persuade those who are hell bent on their idea it is ok to kill unborn, innocent babies? I can lead the horse to water but I am not stupid enough to think I can make him drink, NOR am I patient enough to stand there while they die of dehydration (metaphorically).

It is sick as in a selfish, and a horrific WRONG against mankind AND God (our Creator) to kill an unborn child by choice/on purpose. Apparently you took my descriptive words as an insult. I am going on a limb that you and I do not agree "on when life begins".

I take insult to those who think it is "ok" to kill an innocent unborn child. I take even more offense to those who claim to be "Christians" and are apathetic or supportive to the notion of killing unborn babies.

Proverbs 6:16-19

consistent with the US law governing the end of life.

Well, I guess there are always "exceptions around what governing laws you speak of". I know what my State Laws are regarding the "cut off to kill your baby". It is not past 20 weeks unless the mother's life is at risk or the doctor could pay up to $50k in fines, jail time, or loss of license.

Well um, seems I was offered an "alternate option" at 28 weeks. Oh gasp, Mercy Hospital and their own "operating standards/rules" against those options and well those little "laws that are on the books". My life was NOT in danger of death, just in danger of having a potentially small headed disabled child which apparently my doctor's staff thought would be a "loss of my life" :idunno: I later asked another nurse from that office how they could even suggest that "option" and was told they would have "come up with a reason".

Do you disagree with the nervous system definition for deciding when someone is dead at the end of life? What would you have instead? There is a whole nine months to pick from for a foetus - WHY have you picked day one? (an 'it's just obvious' type of argument will get you no closer to criminalisation of abortion, so consider carefully just why you hold your view. I am genuinely interested in your reasoning, and I will politely and thoughtfully respond.)

Why pick "day one"....because I believe that is when life is formed, when the sperm penetrates the egg and combine. Every journey of a thousand miles begins with step? ONE. Day ONE it is for me, my belief, my faith in Him that designed the process as such.

Ps. I'm not really interested in an argument over typos. My response was to an unnecessary criticism of a locally correct spelling. The later ones you found (well done and thanks!) were mangled by an iPad touch keyboard.

Well you sure fooled me from your staunch defending of your "proper/local English that some "yanks" were always messing up......quite lovely was the excuse/blame you put on the ipad and not its operator.

 

[gcthomas]

LKMom, it seems your local state legislators agree with me on the 20 week limit. How will you persuade them to change their policy if you can't stomach trying to persuade anyone to change their mind? Not persuading them is tantamount to tolerating it, isn't it? Shouting abuse from the sidelines is just going to harden opinions and prevent the very change you must want to see, so why don't you try to persuade me? I have no ideological axe to grind, and I have changed my opinions in the past when presented with good reasons.

I don't think the bible says much about foetal rights (it's a long time since i read it, though) so there must be some interpreting going on. How did you get to your position?

 

[gcthomas]

I've found some references. Try these.

Exodus 21:12:

Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. If it was not premeditated, but came about by an act of God, then I will appoint for you a place to which the killer may flee.​

Exodus 21:22 reads:

When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.
​

Seems like the foetus gets less protection than 'a person', with the penalty for causing miscarriage being only a civil wrong attracting a fine.

The New Testament refers to a child 'leaping' within the womb (Rebekah), but that would be after the quickening.

 

[Stripe]

And, stripe, asserting that a foetus is fully a person will not make it true, either. Try persuading rather than just dismissing.

Sure!

At conception what we have is a living, unique human. Nothing but nutrition and time is required before even you will concede to him personhood. I find it utterly within reason to say that the difference in size of not only the being, but every one of his components, has zero impact upon the metaphysical definition of him as a person.

Why do you find this troublesome?

I've found some references. Try these.

Exodus 21:12:

Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. If it was not premeditated, but came about by an act of God, then I will appoint for you a place to which the killer may flee.​

And rapists should be executed by government order as well. :thumb:

Exodus 21:22 reads:

When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.
​

Seems like the foetus gets less protection than 'a person', with the penalty for causing miscarriage being only a civil wrong attracting a fine.

Hard of reading, aren't you?

“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine . “But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, “eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, “burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.​

(Exodus 21:22-25 NKJV)

Looks like punishment for causing harm to the unborn is standard with that for harming the born.

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse, try looking up 'unlikely'. You'll find it does not mean 'never'.

Then stop acting like it does.

But you might need help, since you didn't manage to successfully look up the British English spelling of the word counselor/counsellor:

counsellor Pronunciation: /ˈkaʊns(ə)lə/
(US counselor)
Definition of counsellor
noun
1a person trained to give guidance on personal or psychological problems:
Eg. a marriage counsellor​

From the Oxford English dictionary.

You used a 'c,' not an 's.' Try again.

If you are unable to tolerate even the way other people also quite correctly spell words, that there is often no absolute right and wrong way, who only thinks in terms of absolutes, black and white, then what would be the point in discussing abortion with you?

Both of you used a 'c' in spelling the word, not an 's.'

From the moment of fertilization they are absolutely a person; they absolutely have a God-given right to life; it is absolutely wrong [ethically, morally, etc.] to take that life from them as they are absolutely not guilty of anything that forfeits that right.

Yes you were absolutely correct the first time gc.

Both of you used a 'c' in spelling the word, not an 's.'

 

[gcthomas]

No need for the rudeness - as I wrote I'm not that familiar with the bible, but I think a discussion would be better that aggressive name calling, hence I started one by suggesting a passage.

Thanks for the comments. I'll have a think and get back later. It seems that different bibles have different translations, but it may be that the Hebrew supports your interpretation.

 

[Stripe]

No need for the rudeness

What rudeness?

I'm not that familiar with the bible

Are you familiar with reading in general? It pays to actually read the fullness of the passage. :up:

but I think a discussion would be better that aggressive name calling

What name calling? :AMR:

hence I started one by suggesting a passage.

Yeah, it's been covered.

Thanks for the comments. I'll have a think and get back later. It seems that different bibles have different translations, but it may be that the Hebrew supports your interpretation.

No problem. :thumb:

 

[gcthomas]

Why doesn't the bible mention abortion specifically? It must have been going on in those days, so why the only indication is the eye for an eye punishment for injuring a near term baby by violent assault of the mother? What is your reading of that, Stripe?

 

[LKmommy]

LKMom, it seems your local state legislators agree with me on the 20 week limit. How will you persuade them to change their policy if you can't stomach trying to persuade anyone to change their mind? Not persuading them is tantamount to tolerating it, isn't it? Shouting abuse from the sidelines is just going to harden opinions and prevent the very change you must want to see, so why don't you try to persuade me? I have no ideological axe to grind, and I have changed my opinions in the past when presented with good reasons.

I don't think the bible says much about foetal rights(it's a long time since i read it, though) so there must be some interpreting going on. How did you get to your position?

I appreciate your response and perhaps sincerity but I am not sure you are open to convincing if you do not think their is "life" until a fetus feels "pain". Not to mention I assume you have read all other posts of the prolifers on here now up to what page 14 now?

I got to my position from many ways. Thou shalt not murder(innocent people). Simple enough? I know women who thought it was "their right" and deeply regretted the decision after the fact. I have worked with women who aborted and then took on a "whole new set of personal problems" because of that "easy/ready decision that is available". 15+ years of promoting children's rights, fetus' rights to not be born drug exposed, and promoting family. I defend innocent LIFE. I don't think you get any more innocent than "in the womb".

Finally, each and every time a stranger comments about my beautiful, happy, active baby.....I make a point to share the doctors offered me the choice at 28 weeks to "snuff her out" because her head was going to be too small. Gee....they were WRONG. She was born early, but healthy and perfect. TYJ!

 

[Stripe]

Why doesn't the bible mention abortion specifically? It must have been going on in those days, so why the only indication is the eye for an eye punishment for injuring a near term baby by violent assault of the mother? What is your reading of that, Stripe?

I think that topic something I hesitate to bring up with myself and those I trust as Christians. The implications of what the bible does not say are devastating. I'm not very well equipped to express them, let alone deal with them.

Basically, the more you consider the bible, the more it condemns you.

But, praise God, salvation from the utter despair you might reach is also found within. :thumb: