No. A pluripotent cell is not a zygote.
Because with the same nourishment supplied as after the time you will call it a person, it will grow into a bigger human.
Perhaps you could tell us when a particular human begins.
"Therefore, Abortion Must Remain Legal"
- Thread starter WizardofOz
- Start date
Perhaps you could tell us when a particular human begins.
gcthomas
New member
Yorzhik, everyone agrees that you should not murder innocent humans. The argument really revolves around what rights a foetus has at what times as it changes from a single cell to a full term baby. When is a foetus a fully fledged human?
There is a lot of space for reasoned differences of opinion. The only opinion that is not reasoned is a blanket "it's obvious so everyone else is plain wrong".
No one as given reasons for a date that every reasonable, caring person will agree on. Where reasonable people disagree then there will be no solution to the discussion, and the politicians will continue to steer a middle path.
Do you have any good reasons that might persuade a non-religious person of the correctness of your preferred date?
There is a lot of space for reasoned differences of opinion. The only opinion that is not reasoned is a blanket "it's obvious so everyone else is plain wrong".
No one as given reasons for a date that every reasonable, caring person will agree on. Where reasonable people disagree then there will be no solution to the discussion, and the politicians will continue to steer a middle path.
Do you have any good reasons that might persuade a non-religious person of the correctness of your preferred date?
I don't think I answered this completely enough.
Considering that world history is defined by wars... I think your bias has colored your judgement.
And it invalidated your point, too. That 5 year old being dead has a huge consequence not only on that family, that community, and even a little in that nation... but the 5 year old, too.
When does a particular human begin in your opinion? Do you think you should define a human and a person differently?
It is a fully fledged human the moment it's body is whole and developing into a bigger human.
gcthomas
New member
When is its body whole? When it's nervous system fits together at 20 weeks? Earlier? Later?
Earlier. It was still a complete single entity before 20 weeks. That was true at 19 weeks. 18 weeks... 1 week... Even before the first day was ended.
When does a particular human begin in your opinion? Do you think you should define a human and a person differently?
So you believe it's a person at conception? I'd have to take hallucinogens to say it was even remotely human at that point.
Any person can be murdered without pain and suffering.
Alate_One
Well-known member
If it could develop into a new individual the same as a zygote, is it then a person, even though it came from a skin cell?
It's got human DNA and it's one cell, that's it. It MAY develop into a person, it might not.
A particular human being? I think there can be reasonable criteria for when human beings begin, I think the nervous system, heartbeat or brain waves could be reasonable standards.
There's little to nothing that can be done for a zygote, unless you're going to police each woman's monthly cycles.
Alate_One
Well-known member
We could play, one of these things is not like the others again! (One of these isn't human at all, I wonder which one!)
Alate playing I-don't-know-what it-is-so-let's-kill-it again.
Alate_One
Well-known member
Stripe is playing I don't know what they are either so lets ban birth control on the off chance we might kill one of them. Because maybe they're people, even though some of them are clearly not. But we should stop all hormonal birth control (and force women to give birth) in case they are!
Actually, no.
What we are against is the termination by pregnant women of their unborn children.
There are ways these rare cases you like to cite can be dealt with appropriately without having keep abortion legal.
Alate_One
Well-known member
That doesn't protect zygotes. A woman isn't pregnant until implantation, which is (on average) ten days after the formation of a zygote.
You can't protect zygotes without banning certain types of contraception, which is pretty much all of them, save condoms. You may define such things as "abortion" but the rest of the world doesn't do that.
All humans are persons. Unless you are into the game of deciding which humans you will legally protect. Sure, defenseless new humans today. But tomorrow when the old are a burden on the gov't retirement system, then it isn't much of a step to declare them non-persons, too. And then you get a majority of the voters to agree that a certain race aren't persons. It's a bad road to go down.
You mean, if science can clone a human, would it be a human from the moment it became a zygote? Yes, of course.
No, it may not turn develop into a human unless you physically turn it into one.
Heck, we might develop technology to create a human without the use of another human cell. As soon as you make the zygote... it would be a human just like any other.
Sure, and there can be reasonable criteria for when a human should die with that logic.
But the question is not what reasonable criteria can we come up with to decide what humans can live. The question is, why are you deciding, after a human is alive, whether they are allowed to live or not?
Right, this is science for Alate_One. Look at some pictures to decide which humans can live and which can die.We could play, one of these things is not like the others again! (One of these isn't human at all, I wonder which one!)
If this were true, then pro-lifers would claim pregnant woman could be killed legally. I realize your picture was provocative and created without thought, but it's so wrong you should be ashamed.
So if we put an old person that is burdening the social security system to sleep that will make them not a person because they won't feel pain or suffer. Wow, you just solved a huge problem. You should look at crime statistics by race and see if you can solve any more problems. You're such a genius.
Alate_One
Well-known member
You realize it will never be a zygote? A zygote is only formed from the union of sperm and egg.
Unless you want to call a skin cell fused with an enucleated egg cell a "zygote".
Actually I don't know what would happen if you put it in the correct environment. There is no "physically turning it into one" line I'm aware of.
Or when a human body is not a person anymore. Why not use the same criteria to determine when a group of cells attains "person hood"?
Because it's nearly impossible to protect zygotes without incredible invasions into a woman's privacy and reproductive decisions. And you can't convince me, nor most of the rest of humanity that a one celled zygote deserves the same rights as a human being anyway. Asserting it over and over doesn't make it true.
A zygote inside of a woman's body cannot be seen or detected by any means I'm aware of. In fact any attempts to do so might result in the failure to implant (death) of the zygote.
The only way you can "protect" zygotes is to ban all forms of hormonal birth control leaving you with condoms and surgical means. If you do that, you'll have a massive black market in the substances. What do you plan to do? Throw women in jail for using birth control pills? Screen them for having IUDs? Follow women to see if they miss their normal cycles, then prosecute them if they fail to give birth?
It quickly becomes ludicrous, especially since you're often the same people that decries invasive government. You don't get much more invasive than a vaginal probe.