The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[Lighthouse]

For patman:

Thank you for your reply. I see you are about the same age as Lighthouse.

Do you go to a MAD church?

After all those articles and links I posted saying that salvation has never been by making sacrifices, circumcision and baptism, how can you possibly say you agree with Bob Hill? :sigh:

If what Acts 9ers say about Paul and the mystery is true, Acts 2ers should accept it. But I suspect that Acts 2ers already accept the truth. They certainly accept Ephesians and Romans.

If the mystery was about an unparallelled dispensation of grace, I do not see why O.T. salvation still couldn't have been by grace through faith plus nothing.

The Israelites were known to be earthly-minded, and they could have failed to realize the importance of everlasting life being by believing on the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Remember the Pharisees.

The majority of Acts 2ers believe you can lose your salvation. Especially if you fail to keep an aspect of the law. So they believe that you were not saved by keeping the law, but that after salvation you must keep the law, or lose your salvation. I believe they misinterpret what the Bible truly does teach. And the true Acts 2 dispensation does theach the law, and one under that dispensation should keep it, but they do not lose their salvation because they obeyed the lusts of their flesh sometimes and broke the law. I am an Acts 9er because I can see that the Bible clearly teaches that this is a dispensation apart form the law.

 

[patman]

So what? Paul tells us to keep the commandments of the Lord but that does not mean that we must TRY to keep those commandments in order to be saved.

The Lord Jesus told the Jews in no uncertain terms that those who "believe" in Him have everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.

The verses which you quoted which you think teaches that the Jews had to TRY to keep the law continue.The rich man left and then we read:

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Mt.19:23-26).

It is indeed possible for a person to TRY to keep the law,but it is entirely a different matter to keep the law perfectly,and that is what is required to earn salvation by law-keeping.

So the verses which you quote do not teach your idea that a Jew must TRY to keep the law in order to be saved.The Lord Jesus revealed another way whereby the Jew could be saved,and that is by "believing".Nothing more:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

What did He say here that you do not understand? His words could not be any plainer.

In HIs grace,--Jerry

"So what?", you ask?

How are you missing this? Jesus said you had to do what he said and believe to be saved in John. What do you think "hear" means? Well none of us today have "heard his words" do you think we are doomed?

Hear means follow them, take them in, do them.

And in the verses I pointed out Jesus, if he were to make a complete sentence, would be saying "...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments(‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’) If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

I don't know why you are trying to misread this very simple story. I know some church or someone gave you ideas and now you read those ideas into scripture. When someone like me comes along and shows you a very simple proof that blows it out of the water, you have no where to turn but to everywhere else.

And when you turn everywhere else, it turns out that even in those places you do not really know what you are talking about. When does Paul ever say keep the commands? That is just not there.

Before Paul, Jesus required his followers keep the law. Not as the only way to be saved, but as a part of the way. Your verse from John shows that clearly too.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When does Paul ever say keep the commands? That is just not there.

"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication...But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
" (1Thess.4:2-3;Eph.5:3-5).

Perhaps you think that Paul did not ever say to keep any commandments,but that is not what the Scriptures reveal.

Jesus said you had to do what he said and believe to be saved in John.

Yes,He said one must "believe".Nothing more or nothing less.But you cannot believe Him for some reason.You want to attempt to make his words meaning something diferrent because of sometthing He said at another place:

Hear means follow them, take them in, do them.

He said:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

He does not say that those who "hear" His word are saved,nor does He say that those who "hears" His words and follows them and does them are saved.Instead He says that those who hear and "BELIEVE" receive everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.

It is His Words that bring life,and not His words plus "works" which bring life:

"...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

Not His words PLUS "works".

And in the verses I pointed out Jesus, if he were to make a complete sentence, would be saying "...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments(‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’) If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

I don't know why you are trying to misread this very simple story.

It is you who is misreading what He said.You said that this teaches that in order for the Jew to be saved he had to TRY to keep the commandments.That is a perversion of His words.

In order for a Jew to receive eternal life by following the law he had to follow it perfectly:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jms.2:10).

That is why the Lord Jesus said that "with men this is impossible".

I know some church or someone gave you ideas and now you read those ideas into scripture. When someone like me comes along and shows you a very simple proof that blows it out of the water, you have no where to turn but to everywhere else.

You proved nothing but the fact that you have no problem when it comes to perverting the words of the Lord Jesus.You make "life" dependent of "believing" and "works" despite the fact that the Lord Jesus says "believe" and His words are "life".

Before Paul, Jesus required his followers keep the law. Not as the only way to be saved, but as a part of the way..

How is being "guilty of all" contributing to anyone's salvation.

I do not know where you got your ideas,but it is clear that in order to defend your ideas you must pervert the clear words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul speaks of a blessedness that comes upon the circumcision as well as the uncircumcision:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:6-9).

This blessedness comes to both the circumcision and the uncircumcision.God imputes righteousness on both.and this righteousness is not based on "works".

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[patman]

How Jerry reads the words of Christ:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).\

How I read them:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

Some people want to skip over the parts they don't like.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

However, I do agree with Jerry that salvation could not be lost after Christ's death and resurrection. I also believe there was no salvation before the cross.

Just to clarify,I believe that there never was a time when salvation could be lost.And I do believe that there was salvation before the Cross,as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus to the woman who washed His feet:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[patman]

Perhaps you think that Paul did not ever say to keep any commandments,but that is not what the Scriptures reveal.

Perhaps Jerry might want to weigh the differences between the law and the instructions Paul gave us apart from the law of Moses.

No where will you find Paul telling us to keep the law. Not even your best shot thus far has.

 

[lightninboy]

For Lighthouse:
You posted #472 on January 8, 2007.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28166&page=32&pp=15
I replied in post #483 on January 8, 2007.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28166&page=33&pp=15
You may reply to that if you wish.
I never heard of Les Feldick.
This sounds like a good church:
Grace Baptist Church
432 W 300 N, Anderson, IN 46012

For Jerry Shugart:
I really appreciate you handling patman. He acts like a tough nut to crack.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Some people want to skip over the parts they don't like.

I am not skipping over anything.It is obvious to anyone who will use their brains that if a person "believes" His words then it is obvious that they have heard His words.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Perhaps Jerry might want to weigh the differences between the law and the instructions Paul gave us apart from the law of Moses.

No where will you find Paul telling us to keep the law. Not even your best shot thus far has.

I challenge you to quote me where I ever said that Paul tells Christians to follow "the law".I never said such a thing.The subject was following commandments.And again,here are his words:

"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication...But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
" (1Thess.4:2-3;Eph.5:3-5).

First you pervert the words of the Lord Jesus and now you are perverting what I said.

 

[lightninboy]

For patman:

Thank you for your reply.

Do you think that it is impossible for an Acts 2 Dispensationalism church to teach salvation by grace through faith plus nothing?

If salvation in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace must be by grace through faith plus nothing, does it not make sense, for God to be consistent with His holiness, that salvation must be by grace through faith plus nothing in all dispensations?

It does not make sense for God to make a complete 180° regarding the basics of salvation.

 

[patman]

For Jerry Shugart:
I really appreciate you handling patman. He acts like a tough nut to crack.

:chuckle:

I already came from that camp, you want me to go back? I am glad I am hard to crack, God's word is good glue when you let it work.

 

[patman]

I challenge you to quote me where I ever said that Paul tells Christians to follow "the law".I never said such a thing.The subject was following commandments.And again,here are his words:

"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication...But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
" (1Thess.4:2-3;Eph.5:3-5).

First you pervert the words of the Lord Jesus and now you are perverting what I said.

Pervertedness everywhere.

Maybe you don't understand me. THE LAW is the mosaic law. Christ taught it. He called it "the commands" he quoted them, he said follow them and believe in him to get to heaven. I said you'd never find paul saying that, and you posted a verse.

It didn't apply.

Paul also had commands, though they were not the law, and they were not required for salvation to those under grace who are saved solely by grace. Paul never said to follow the law, and you will not find him saying that anywhere.

Now Look. Thus far, all I have said was to quote one group of verses, and to point out what i just said above. I have stuck by the words and shown you how you like to read over them.

You call this perverting the words!? Making Jesus' words red, bolding them, showing you plainly what they say with little to no input of my own, other than to reiterate them, if not quoting them exactly?

HA.

You just don't like that I disagree with you, so you gotta make me out to be a sinner of some kind.

Then you accuse me of maybe perverting your words? Your high and mighty words? let it never be, Jerry, that I pervert your words.

Ohh. Wait, I am not rewording your words at all... so that can't be a perversion. So I guess someone needs to chill out a little. (ahem, Jerry)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You just don't like that I disagree with you, so you gotta make me out to be a sinner of some kind.

You pervert the words of the Lord Jesus when He says that those who "believe" receive everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.You seem to think that when He said the word "hear" that that somehow makes "works" required for salvation.

You failed to address the words of the Lord Jesus where He says that it is His words that bring life:

"...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

You did not even attempt to pervert His words there,you just ignored them.Here are some more that you can either pervert or ignore.A sinner is saved when he is given spiritual life,and that happens when he is "born again" or "born of God".And Peter tells the Jews that they are "born again" by the "word of God":

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1Pet.2:23).

Not by faith plus TRYING to keep the commandments.By the Word of God.James says the same thing:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jams.1:18).

And John says that the Jews who were born of God were not born through the "will of the flesh" or the "will of man",so that rules out "works":

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:12-13).

As I said,the Lord Jesus said that His words are spirit and they are life.But to you that means nothing.In your opinion it was His words plus works that gave life.

And it is not I who makes you out to be a sinner of some kind,it is you through your unbelief that makes you a sinner:

"...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Ro.14:23).

You do not believe what the Lord Jesus said nor what Peter says nor what James says nor what John says.

 

[patman]

You pervert the words of the Lord Jesus when He says that those who "believe" receive everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.You seem to think that when He said the word "hear" that that somehow makes "works" required for salvation.

....

You do not believe what the Lord Jesus said nor what Peter says nor what James says nor what John says.

Whatever you say.

Wow, do you hear your name echoing in your head? Jerry, Jerry, Jerry? Because you can really not chill. Or, Chill... NOT.

You hardly know me or my views or anything about me to know I am perverting scripture. I may disagree with you, but get a clue, buddy.

I am trying to stick to the subject of the topic without getting on some of subject, be it whatever.

I point out that Jesus taught to keep the law as a part of being saved. Your only answer is not to address that, but to go and find other verses that don't contradict me.

If you can't understand the one verse, why should I trust you to understand the others? Then, before I can even answer them you go around screaming to TOL how evil I am.

Well before I answer any thing, you will have to apologize. Otherwise, see ya.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I point out that Jesus taught to keep the law as a part of being saved. Your only answer is not to address that, but to go and find other verses that don't contradict me.

patman,I addressed that verse.As a matter of fact I pointed out that at the end of that episode the Lord answered His disciples question as to "Who then can be saved" by saying: "With man this is impossible".

But you ignored that and continued saying that the Lord was teaching that the Jew must TRY to keep the law to be saved.He never said any such thing but you continue in your perversions by insisting that He was teaching that the Jews must TRY to keep the law in order to be saved.

I pointed out that the reason why the Lord Jesus would say that "with man this is impossible" is because if one breaks only one commandment they are still guilty of breaking the law.But you ignored that also.

And I said that you would either pervert or ignore the words I quoted in regard to how the Jew received spiritual life by being "born of God" and you proved me right.You just ignored them.

 

[patman]

patman,I addressed that verse.As a matter of fact I pointed out that at the end of that episode the Lord answered His disciples question as to "Who then can be saved" by saying: "With man this is impossible".

But you ignored that and continued saying that the Lord was teaching that the Jew must TRY to keep the law to be saved.He never said any such thing but you continue in your perversions by insisting that He was teaching that the Jews must TRY to keep the law in order to be saved.

I pointed out that the reason why the Lord Jesus would say that "with man this is impossible" is because if one breaks only one commandment they are still guilty of breaking the law.But you ignored that also.

And I said that you would either pervert or ignore the words I quoted in regard to how the Jew received spiritual life by being "born of God" and you proved me right.You just ignored them.

Like I said. Whatever.

When you grow a little more to have a more adult conversation, check back with me.

Bye.

 

[patman]

Patman,

Is that a mouse that you have in your hand?

Bob

Hehehe

No, It is catnip

http://www.christian-revolution.net/images/david-cat_nip.jpg

Check it out.

p.s. sorry i skipped this one

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Like I said. Whatever.

When you grow a little more to have a more adult conversation, check back with me.

Bye.

Check back with me when you start to put your faith in what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[godrulz]

The majority of Acts 2ers believe you can lose your salvation. Especially if you fail to keep an aspect of the law. So they believe that you were not saved by keeping the law, but that after salvation you must keep the law, or lose your salvation. I believe they misinterpret what the Bible truly does teach. And the true Acts 2 dispensation does theach the law, and one under that dispensation should keep it, but they do not lose their salvation because they obeyed the lusts of their flesh sometimes and broke the law. I am an Acts 9er because I can see that the Bible clearly teaches that this is a dispensation apart form the law.

Most Baptist, Lutheran?, Reformed people would be OSAS and also see Pentecost as the birth of the NT Church. Mid-Acts is a minority position that is not even on the radar in most evangelical or academic circles. Those in the Arminian camp would reject OSAS, so Christianity is split on the issue (though the vast majority in both camps are Acts 2 oriented vs Mid-Acts).

 

[godrulz]

I challenge you to quote me where I ever said that Paul tells Christians to follow "the law".I never said such a thing.The subject was following commandments.And again,here are his words:

"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication...But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
" (1Thess.4:2-3;Eph.5:3-5).

First you pervert the words of the Lord Jesus and now you are perverting what I said.

Most of the Decalogue is repeated in principle in Pauline teaching (Eph. 4-6). Why are people so quick to reject the validity of the words of the Master, God in the flesh? Dispensationalizing away the teachings of Jesus is gross error.