The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[Bob Hill]

It says that we are in the Dispensation of the Grace of God in Eph 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the Dispensation of the Grace of God which was given to me for you.

According to Eph 1:3, we see that God wants to pour out spiritual blessings on us Christians. We see that these blessings are accomplished by the Father for us Christians. Eph 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.”

The body of Christ was a mystery, hidden in God until He revealed it to the Apostle Paul. Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles -- 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and mutual partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Colossians reiterates this: Col 1:24-27 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions for Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25&26 of which I became a minister according to the Dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God, the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[patman]

Yay, patman!

Does your MAD agree with Jerry Shugart or Bob Hill?

I cannot answer that really. I am familiar with Bob's views and tend to agree with him, I do not know what Jerry thinks. I bet I'd have to go back and read a lot of posts to see their differences?

Anyway, maybe I could answer it like this:

I believe Paul alone was given "The Mystery." The Mystery was the gospel of grace without works. It was hidden from all ages and all prophets before him and revealed because the Jews rejected Christ, therefore its intended audience was the Gentiles.

This, to me, means there were two covenants. The old(which came in two parts, the mosaic law and the fulfilled mosaic law, made possible by Christ) and the new(grace).

 

[lightninboy]

For patman:

Bob Hill teaches salvation by works before Paul.

Jerry teaches salvation by grace alone before Paul. Or at least I thought he did.

Do you go to a MAD church?

 

[patman]

For patman:

Bob Hill teaches salvation by works before Paul.

Jerry teaches salvation by grace alone before Paul. Or at least I thought he did.

Do you go to a MAD church?

I agree with Bob. The characteristics of the Mystery as described by Paul compel me to.

2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;[] 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

We can get a lot from the above. The message of grace was/is:

1. Given to Paul
2. Never revealed to past generations before Paul
3. Revealed to present apostles and prophets.
4. For the Gentiles
5. Is called "The Mystery"

Paul was the leader in the grace message, everyone else was slow to catch on. This should show that prior the one gospel(christ died to save sinners) there were different terms to salvation(the fulfilled law was required to achieve it AND faith vs. grace alone and faith).

 

[Bob Hill]

Patman,

It really feels great to have someone who I agree with. Thanks for being here.

Bob

 

[Bob Hill]

Here are the thoughts of three quite different scholars.

Lange’s Commentary V. 11 “What is the dispensation of the Mystery . . . The ‘mystery’ here is not merely the calling of the Gentiles (ver. 6), but as in ii. 3; here ‘the actual accomplishment of the plan hitherto formed in secret’ . . . Ellicott: ‘The dispensation (arrangement, regulation) of the mystery (the union of Jews and Gentiles in Christ, ver. 6), which was to be humbly traced and acknowledged in the fact of its having secretly existed in the primal counsels of God, and now having been revealed to the heavenly powers by means of the Church.’ So Meyer, Alford and most.”

Lutheran scholar, Lenski “We again meet the question as to whether oikonomia is passive, ‘the dispensation’ or arrangement made by God, or active, ‘the administration’ Paul carries out in his office. . . . It was, indeed, ‘the administration of (nothing less than) the mystery’ so long hidden in God.”

Ernest R. Campbell “and to enlighten all men regarding the dispensation of the mystery . . . . The thought that Paul wants to get across to all men is ‘what’ the dispensation of the mystery really is”

It certainly is The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace :the_wave: , the name of this thread.

It was never revealed before God gave it to Paul.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Patman,

Is that a mouse that you have in your hand?

Bob

 

[lightninboy]

For Jerry:

If I should go to Acts 2 Dispensationalism churches and tell them to change their beliefs to match yours, what should I tell them?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For Jerry:

If I should go to Acts 2 Dispensationalism churches and tell them to change their beliefs to match yours, what should I tell them?

Tell them exactly what I told you.You know,the things which you continue to evade.

 

[lightninboy]

For patman:

Thank you for your reply. I see you are about the same age as Lighthouse.

Do you go to a MAD church?

After all those articles and links I posted saying that salvation has never been by making sacrifices, circumcision and baptism, how can you possibly say you agree with Bob Hill? :sigh:

If what Acts 9ers say about Paul and the mystery is true, Acts 2ers should accept it. But I suspect that Acts 2ers already accept the truth. They certainly accept Ephesians and Romans.

If the mystery was about an unparallelled dispensation of grace, I do not see why O.T. salvation still couldn't have been by grace through faith plus nothing.

The Israelites were known to be earthly-minded, and they could have failed to realize the importance of everlasting life being by believing on the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Remember the Pharisees.

 

[lightninboy]

For Jerry:

Tell me what to tell them, and I'll understand you better too.

You could print more about Ryrie being wrong.

Dispensationalism is manmade, and man can make his dispensations any way he wants.

 

[Bob Hill]

It surely takes a lot of time to come to any good conclusions when we try to sort out the dispensations.

I think it is important to realize that we all can be wrong on these kinds of details.

But I do wonder why it is so hard for many to understand the Dispensation of Grace since it is so obvious in God's inspired writing through Paul.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[aikido7]

This Christianity talked about in this thread seems all about requirements and rewards. It seems to me that faith as believing * seems to be the gist of much of this thread. And a belief in afterlife as central goes along with this.

In the first-century in Palestine, Jews such as Jesus saw "faith" as "trust"(in God), not as a list of rules to be believed.

This view of Christianity as a set of beliefs seems in direct oppostion to my belief that Chrstianity is a way of life. You appear to use the language of God's grace and God's compassion and God's love, but that language's own internal logic turns this upside down.

As I have posted before, turning Christianity into a life of requirements and rewards like salvation and the afterlife means that the idea of "grace" becomes compromised.

If God's grace has conditions attatched to it, then it is no longer grace.

"Belief is holding onto a rock; faith is learning to swim."



__________________________________________
*Many students of the Bible know that "faith" has much more to do with a heartflelt total trust in God instead of a mental dependence on a certain list of "beliefs."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For Jerry:

Tell me what to tell them, and I'll understand you better too.

You could print more about Ryrie being wrong.

lightinboy,

As I said previously,I do not think that the "dispensation of grace" started at Acts 2.The idea that it did is based on a basic flaw in understanding exactly what the "dispensation of grace" refers to.Here is what Acts 2 dispensationalist Charles Ryrie says in regard to the meaning:

"Dispensation of Grace: Under grace the responsibilty on man is to accept the gift of righteousness that God freely offers to all" (Ryrie,Dispensationalism,p.56).

Under a chart labled "The Dispensations" Ryrie lists the "responsibilities" under "Grace": "Believe on Christ" and "Walk With Christ" (Ibid.,p.54).

Ryrie misses the whole point in regard to the "responsibility" in regard to the present dispensation.When we go to the Scriptures we see an entirely different "responsibility",The Scriptual evidence makes it plain that the "dispensation of grace" is in regard to preaching the "gospel of grace".

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you…" (Eph.3:2).

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

"…a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1Cor.9:17).

The "dispensation" that was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace",a "ministry" and a "gospel":

"…the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts20:24).

This responsibilty or stewardship was not given to anyone until it was given to Paul.The heart and soul of the "gospel of grace" is the "purpose" of the Lord's death upon the Cross--how the sinner is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:23).

And Paul says,"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets" (Ro.3:21;NKJV).

The basic truth of salvation by grace through faith made possible by the Cross was not openly revealed until Paul was converted and given the responsibilty to preach that gospel.

Dispensationalism is manmade, and man can make his dispensations any way he wants.

Tell me what is "made-made" about the verses which I quoted.Tell us why we should believe that Charles Ryrie is correct about his ideas regarding the "responsibilities" in regard to the "stewardship of grace" since his ideas are directly contradicted by the Scriptures.

You have been begging for a debate with a Mid Acts Dispensationalist so now is your chance.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[lightninboy]

Dear Jerry,

I told you to tell me what to tell the Acts 2 Dispensationalism churches.

You didn't tell me.

I said you could print more about Ryrie being wrong.

You printed about the same thing you printed before.

What is wrong with having a Church Age instead of The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace? Salvation has always been by grace. You proved it.

I am beginning to think you are nuts. What do you do for a living? Do you start Acts 9 churches in Mexico?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am beginning to think you are nuts.

I am beginning to think that you are evading the points which I made in regard to the "responsibilities" under the "dispensation of grace".

You say that no MAD wants to debate you but when you get a chance to debate the issue as to exactly what the words "dispensation of grace" mean all you can do is say that you are beginning to think that I am nuts!

Is that you idea as to what constitutes a "debate"?

I said you could print more about Ryrie being wrong.

You printed about the same thing you printed before.

I can show more evidence that Ryrie is wrong in regard to his ideas concerning the "dispensation of grace" but I think that we should first discuss what I have already pointed out about about his beliefs.

What is wrong with having a Church Age instead of The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace? Salvation has always been by grace. You proved it.

Why do you want to equate the "church age" to the "dispensation of grace"?

An "age" is not the same thing as a "dispensation".You are attempting to compare apples with oranges.Nothing could be as confusing as that.But that is what Ryrie does in his attempt to discredit those who follow what he calls "ultradispensationalism".

In every place in his book Dispensationalism when he speaks of the present dispensation he uses the words "dispensation of grace" EXCEPT when he attempts to discredit ultradispensationalism,and then all of a sudden he starts speaking about when the church began.

Why should anyone follow those who claim to be dispensationalists when they do not even understand the responsibilities under the very dispensation in which they are living and they confuse a "stewardship" with a body of believers?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[ApologeticJedi]

I told you to tell me what to tell the Acts 2 Dispensationalism churches.

Why was Peter still obeying the dietary laws in Acts 8?
Why was Israel still the focus until Acts 9?
Why did Paul need to be converted supernaturally by Jesus himself?
Why was Paul chosen to go to the Gentiles when Jesus had left twelve apostles, and hundreds of disciples behind that had first hand accounts of Jesus speaking?
Why does Paul stress so hard that he didn't learn any of his gospel from the twelve apostles, even to the point of swearing that he was not lying?
Why does Peter claim that they are in the time known as the Great Tribulation in Acts 2:14-21?
Why does the early church resort to a type of communism in Acts 4:32-35, and why does God bless the decision in Acts 5:1-10?
Why did their decision to pool all their money together end up causing many to starve and Paul have to take up collections for them?
Why did Jesus claim he would return in their lifetime (Matt 24:34; Mark 9:1) and then did not?
Why, if you believe that the 70th week of Daniel is the Great Tribulation, didn't it follow directly after the previous 69 weeks?
What is the meaning of the parable of the fig tree in Luke 13:6-9?
When exactly was Israel cut off as accounted by Romans 11:13-20?
Was Jesus' plan in Matthew 28:19-20 indicative that Israel had been cut off yet?
Why, if Israel had already been cut off, does Peter indicate that Israel could still have her kingdom in Acts 3:19?
Why didn't any of the messages change in the time between Acts 2 and Acts 9?
Why did Paul know that Gentiles need not be circumcised before Acts 15, but the other Apostles had to discuss it among themselves?

The answer to these and many other questions, if answered without biased glasses, expose the problem with Acts 2 dispensation churches.

 

[Bob Hill]

Jerry,

That was a wonderful post!!

Keep up the great work.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Jerry, I am referring to post 614. It was excellent!!

Bob

 

[Bob Hill]

I want to clarify what I mean when I use the term “Dispensational Theology”. First, it was a secret, hid in God until He gave this good news to the Apostle Paul.

When God did this to Paul, we find that Dispensational Theology is the theology that distinguish the changes God has made in the times that dealt with man sown through the centuries.

A dispensational change is when God changes the “house rules” for man as man relates to God.

Sometimes God changes the method of salvation from one dispensation to another.

Other dispensational changes have to do with the state of man.

When Adam and Eve sinned, God had to deal with them with the new conscience that they had after they disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden tree. Before that, they were in innocence.

The greatest change in dispensations was when God changed from dealing with Israel as His people to bringing in the dispensation of the mystery, where He was dealing with all of mankind and man was justified by faith rather than by faith which had to be shown by the works of the law.

That was a very great change.

In Christ,
Bob Hill