The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[Jerry Shugart]

Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

How long are we sealed?

Bob,the Jewish believers were told that they possessed eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1Jn.5:11).

And the Lord Jesus says that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish" (Jn.10:28).

So the Jewish believers also enjoyed eternal security.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Bob Hill]

Men’s lives are at stake. Paul was “afraid for” the ones in Galatia. Notice what he wrote in, Gal 4:9-11 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Was Paul concerned about the salvation of all of them? No, because he had just written this to them: Gal 4:4-7 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

They knew the figure of adoption that Paul used was from current Greek life. The Greek law that Alexander established when he conquered this area, said, the adopted son could not be disinherited. This adoption will be realized when we are raptured before the tribulation.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Romans 8:23 describes our adoption, somewhat: “Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.”

Ephesians 1:5 clearly states the security we members of the body of Christ have: “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

In Galatia, some had believed after Paul left them. He was concerned about them. He wrote Gal 5:2-4 to them. “Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

He was so concerned that he wrote Gal 5:7-12. You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

Well, how did this whole upsetting mess get started? To begin, Christ was sent only to Israel.

In Matthew 15:24 Christ Himself said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Paul was inspired to write: Romans 15:8 “Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers.”

When Israel rejected Christ, God raised up Paul with a different commission from the 12 Apostles. Their commission required baptism for salvation, as in Mk 16:15-18 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

In contrast, Paul’s commission did not include baptism. 1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

When God knocked down Saul and then raised him up Saul, who used his other name, Paul from his time in the beginning of his first missionary, on. There was a different dispensation, that is, a different method of salvation.

Peter and the eleven had the gospel of the circumcision.

Paul had the gospel of the uncircumcision.

The circumcision gospel was always associated with works for salvation.

Paul’s gospel, according to Acts 16:31, was, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”

Paul was given a whole new program called the dispensation of the Mystery, or the dispensation of Grace. Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Paul had been given a different gospel by the resurrected and ascended Christ according to Gal 2:7-9.
Gal 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship of the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

What should we do?

What can we do about the lack of knowledge about the gospel and the mystery?

First, learn about the gospel of grace; then share it.

If you're not saved by grace, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The circumcision gospel was always associated with works for salvation.

Bob, We can see exactly what was preached to the Jews during the Acts period,and those of believed that gospel were "born of God".

On the day of Pentecost Peter told these same Jews that they crucified Him "through ignorance".He also used the facts concerning His death and resurrection in order to prove that He is the promised Messiah and then he summed up his discourse by saying:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts2:36).

The heart and soul of the "gospel of the kingdom" is the fact that it is the Lord Jesus Who is the "Christ,the Son of God".

Later,after hearing the gospel preached the Ethiopian treasurer asked to be baptized with water: "And Philip said,If thou believeth with all thine heart,thou mayest.And he answered and said,I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts8:37).

After Paul was converted,the first thing that he did was to preach this same gospel in the synagogues of the Jews: "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts9:20,22).

That was the same gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews: "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).

That is the same message that Apollos preached to the Jews: "For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus is Christ" (Acts18:28).

The Apostle John makes it clear that those who believed that Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God,are "born of God":

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him….For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1Jn.5:1,4,5).

"But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on His name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:12,13).

So we can see that the Jew who believed that it is Jesus Who is the Christ,the Son of God,were born of God.And that was not by the "will of the flesh" or the "will of man" so that rules out "works".

For more on the difference between the two gospels go to the following site:

http://kaydydid.com/lastdays/gospel-preached.html

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Here the Lord Jesus us describing those who will be saved.He is not saying that one of the requirements for salvation is water baptism.He knew that all who would believe would gladly submit to the right of water baptism.

The following verse is describing the salvation of Jews:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).

The Lord Jesus is not saying that a "requirement" to receive everlasting life is to forsake one's family,but instead He is describing those who will receive eternal life.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I saw C. R. Stam saying that works were required for salvation before Paul.
Name some names of MAD proponents for works required for salvation before Paul.
Name some names of MAD proponents against works required for salvation before Paul.

The first MAD that I am aware of is Sir Robert Anderson,and he did not teach that works were required before Paul was converted.I would call Anderson among the "first generation" of MAD,writing in the early 1900's.

The "second generation" of MAD were Charles Baker,J.C.O'Hair,and Cornelius Stam.

Among those only Stam taught that works were required for salvation before Paul was converted.

Since Stam most MAD teach "works" were required before Paul was converted.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Bob Hill]

What gospel should we preach?

Even though I have shown that Paul preached a gospel different from Peter's, others say they’re the same. So, let's continue checking this out.

What did Peter preach as the gospel in his first sermon on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:22-24,30-38 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know; 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: The LORD said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

For some reason, Peter doesn’t even mention the redemption Christ purchased on the cross. His sermon emphasized that Christ was the Messiah of Israel. That was his important message.

Then, later, when Peter went to Cornelius in Acts 10:34,35 he “opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

As far as the method of salvation, Peter’s gospel was quite different from Paul’s. In Acts 2:37,38, when they heard his sermon, “they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ 38 Then Peter said to them, [Here’s the method] ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

Later, when he wrote his first epistle to “the pilgrims of the Dispersion”, in 1 Pet 3:21, he wrote, “There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Peter also admonished them to make their election sure by doing good works in 2 Pet 1:10. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Now, for those who did not continue to make their election sure, there was no hope, for Peter wrote in 2 Pet 2:20, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.” That was because they, then, could not be saved.

In contrast, what did Paul preach as far as the gospel? In Acts 13:16-39, he started with the calling of Israel to King David. Then in verse 23 he said, “From this man’s seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior; Jesus; 24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 26 Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

Simply put, the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:30-32 brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. In his epistles, he gave the same message of salvation. In Rom 3:21,22, he wrote, “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.”

The gospel in a nut shell is found in Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

As far as the method of salvation is concerned, in contrast to Peter’s “be even more diligent to make your call and election sure,” Paul wrote in 1 Cor 3:15, “If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

Then, in contrast to the required works for salvation which Peter, James, and John taught, Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Then, we see more in Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Can we know for sure who received the stewardship for today? I believe the answer is yes. It was the Apostle Paul. God raised him up to start a new dispensation with a different gospel than the one Peter and John preached.

Eph 3:1-9 says, “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

God blinded Saul on the road to Damascus, then raised him up to be the Apostle Paul to the Gentiles and gave him a brand new message of salvation.

Therefore, what should we preach?

Should we preach the Law, the kingdom gospel that was for the Jews, or the message of grace that is for the whole world, this Dispensation of Grace?

I believe we should preach only Grace – Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then, in contrast to the required works for salvation which Peter, James, and John taught, Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The "remnant" of Jews living at the time Paul wrote the words at Ephesians 2:4-9 were also saved by "grace":

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace" (Ro.11:5-6).

And Peter must have been a member of that "remnant" as he recoginizes that he was saved by grace:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts15:11).

Perhaps Peter was wrong and he was not saved by grace after all.Some one should have told him that in order to be saved he must do works of one kind or another.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Bob Hill]

Jerry,

My wife went to J.C. O'Hair's church until she married me - I was in the army at that time. When I was young, I also went to O'Hair's church.

I knew Charles Baker very well and Cornelius Stam, a little.

There has been terrific growth in the Grace Movement since then. I've trained many men to become pastors of Grace churches. They have been in many states.

Why do you know as much as you do about the Grace Movement?

In Christ,
Bob Hill

I knew J.C,

 

[Bob Hill]

Jerry Shugart,

What do you think about 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you believe a person has to be baptized today to be saved?

I've never been water baptized.

In Christ,
Bob

 

[godrulz]

Yeah, tell godrulz that salvation can't be lost, Pastor Hill!

A believer cannot lose salvation. An unbeliever does not have salvation, whether they once believed or not. The issue is whether a believer can become an unbeliever or not. Unless we are robots, it is possible to change one's mind and will and reject the grace and power of God to keep or save. The reality is that many people do reject God's provision their whole lives or after having once embraced Him for a season (Jn. 3:16, 36).

 

[godrulz]

Jerry Shugart,

What do you think about 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you believe a person has to be baptized today to be saved?

I've never been water baptized.

In Christ,
Bob

Faith, not external ritual, saves. The verse goes on to talk about the resurrection of Christ, not water. The ark (Jesus) saved the men, not the water in Noah's day. Jesus and faith are explicit in other passages, so I would not proof text this verse without examining it closer. In the early church, heart faith was evidenced by external baptism as a witness without leading to the heresy of baptismal regeneration.

 

[Bob Hill]

Dear Jerry,

I know that you understand that we are in the dispensation of the grace of God. It says in Eph 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you.

According to Eph 1:3, we see that God wants to pour out spiritual blessings on us Christians. For Christians, we see that these blessings are accomplished by the Father.
Eph 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.” But, it goes further. God chose us, corporately, in Christ. Whether this corporation was foreknown as a corporation or as individuals, is debatable. Eph 1:4 “in as much as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.”

This word, chose, in the Greek can be translated I select, or I choose. So the first thing we should know, is Jesus Christ is the selected one. Christ is the one in and by whom the Father accomplishes His blessings.

Isaiah 42:1 prophesied: “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.” Christ was chosen to be the redeemer, not just for Israel, but also for us Gentiles.

The body of Christ was a mystery, hidden in God until He revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and mutual partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Colossians reiterates this: Col 1:24-27 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions for Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25&26 of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God, the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

Getting back to Eph 1:3-14, first, the whole passage: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.[I believe this choosing is a corporate one – those who believe are chosen to be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself.] 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

What a fantastic God we have.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[patman]

Hey Godrulz,

I know you have your share of scriptural evidence for your view of an anti-MAD perspective.

I remember debating you a little in other threads about this issue and others that relate to it. I believe the main reason you reject mid acts dispensation is because of your Pentecostal background.

Mid Acts believers have a few attributes that are contrary to that denomination. The main one that sticks out to me is the faith healing / miracles aspect that mid act'ers reject and pentecostals cling to.

You have a lot of reasons to believe in this, things you have seen, heard, and read about and it places you in a position to reject mid acts.

I understand how "seeing" is believing, and I know that it gives you reason to see things in the dispensation of grace differently. Know that I totally respect you as I say this, but I think it is making you bias such that you are now reading things in to scripture, such that it allows you to cling.

Outside of the circle of the Pentecostal denomination miracles are generally unheard of. You hear about them WAY MORE in that church. I have had friends who were "healed" at pentecostal revivals, and went home and weeks later, were not.

In the world of "science", there is so much "evidence" that we turn our backs to for the sake of scripture. So seeing isn't always believing, even though in the end, it turns out that the evidence never did hold up.

I think the same may be true of signs and wonders for today, scripture does seem to say they are not a part of this dispensation, but contrary to it are people saying they preformed or witnessed some, which makes people read the contrary into scripture.

Anyway, I guess all this just comes down to one thing: Let scripture decide for you what fits for today, not what is said by other people.

 

[Newman]

Faith, not external ritual, saves. The verse goes on to talk about the resurrection of Christ, not water. The ark (Jesus) saved the men, not the water in Noah's day. Jesus and faith are explicit in other passages, so I would not proof text this verse without examining it closer. In the early church, heart faith was evidenced by external baptism as a witness without leading to the heresy of baptismal regeneration.

Well said.

 

[lightninboy]

For Jerry.

Thanks for the names. I have already posted a refutation of Baker's book, however. How about some names of people on Grace Beacon who would be willing to debate their MAD?

How is your MAD really different from Acts 2 Disp.?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry Shugart,
Why do you know as much as you do about the Grace Movement?

When I became saved it was through a friend and a pastor who were both Acts 9,Twelve Out. After being saved I read just about everything thing I could find about dispensationalism,whether it be Acts 2 or Mid Acts ot Acts 28.

What do you think about 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you believe a person has to be baptized today to be saved?

To answer your second question,no,I do not believe that water baptism is for today.

In answer to your first question,here is what Sir Robert Anderson says about the verse which you quoted:

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us" (i Peter lii. 21).

The meaning of this text is made clear by a more literal rendering of the words. The following is based on Dean Alford’s Commentary: "Which (water, not baptism) the antitype (of the water of the Flood) now saves you also (as it saved Noah) even baptism."

The Apostle’s teaching is that, as the water which engulfed the world bore up the Ark, Noah was saved from death by death, so also is the sinner who believes in Christ. For when united to Christ he becomes one with Him in death. It is the same truth as that of the sprinkled blood of the Passover in Egypt. This verse, therefore, is not a veiled reference to the pagan doctrine of baptism according to the Eleusinian mysteries, but plain teaching, which every Hebrew Christian would understand, that Noah’s Flood typified the death penalty upon sin, and Christian baptism symbolises union with Christ in His death on Calvary. (Anderson,Misunderstood Texts of the Bible,Chapter 9).

http://www.newble.co.uk/anderson/texts/texts9.html

Bob,could I ask you a question now that I have answered yours?

Since Peter said that he was saved by grace just as are the Gentiles then how can you say that he could not be saved without doing works?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For Jerry.

Thanks for the names. I have already posted a refutation of Baker's book, however. How about some names of people on Grace Beacon who would be willing to debate their MAD?

Hi lightinboy,

I really do not know anyone from "Grace Beacon",If I remember correctly there was a site named "Grace Beacon" and someone who went by the name of "Tomothy" started that site.But I do not even know if that site is still up.Can you give me a site address for it?

How is your MAD really different from Acts 2 Disp.?

The obvious reason.I do not think that the "dispensation of grace" started at Acts 2.This idea that it did is based on a basic flaw in understanding exactly what the "dispensation of grace" refers to.Here is what Acts 2 dispensationalist Charles Ryrie says in regard to the meaning:

"Dispensation of Grace: Under grace the responsibilty on man is to accept the gift of righteousness that God freely offers to all" (Ryrie,Dispensationalism,p.56).

Under a chart labled "The Dispensations" Ryrie lists the "responsibilities" under "Grace": "Believe on Christ" and "Walk With Christ" (Ibid.,p.54).

Ryrie misses the whole point in regard to the "responsibility" in regard to the present dispensation.When we go to the Scriptures we see an entirely different "responsibility",The Scriptual evidence makes it plain that the "dispensation of grace" is in regard to preaching the "gospel of grace".

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you…" (Eph.3:2).

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

"…a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1Cor.9:17).

The "dispensation" that was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace",a "ministry" and a "gospel":

"…the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts20:24).

This responsibilty or stewardship was not given to anyone until it was given to Paul.The heart and soul of the "gospel of grace" is the "purpose" of the Lord's death upon the Cross--how the sinner is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:23).

And Paul says,"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets" (Ro.3:21;NKJV).

The basic truth of salvation by grace through faith made possible by the Cross was not openly revealed until Paul was converted and given the responsibilty to preach that gospel.

In His Christ,
Mickey

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Cornelius Stam

Cornelius Stam

I have read all of the books which Cornelius Stam wrote,and almost all of what he says is correct.His writings have been very profitable in regard to my understanding dispensationalism and to the fact that the present dispensation could not have possibly started until Paul was converted.

However,I cannot believe that what he said in regard to salvation in the following quotes.First he says that all those saved throughout time were saved "essentially" by grace through faith:

"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value" (Stam,Things That Differ,Chapter 1).

But then he says that in previous dispensations works were "required" for salvation:

"But do not the principles and the dispensations of God conflict? No indeed. Men in every age have been saved simply by believing God and approaching Him in His appointed way. When works were required for salvation, they did not save as such, but only as the required expression of faith" (Ibid.).

If works are "required" for salvation then that can only mean that works were "essential" in order to receive salvation.

Mr.Stam believed that those Jews who received Hebrews were members of the Body of Christ,and he also quoted teaching from the Jewish epistles and applied those teachings to the Body of Christ.He founded the "Berean Bible Society" but since his death that society has wandered far from what Mr.Stam taught in regard to the Jewish epistles.

In His grace,--Jerry