The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace
- Thread starter Bob Hill
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Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
We are chosen and sealed because we believed in Christ. Eph 1:4,12,13 “just as He chose us in Him 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.”
He didn’t choose us to be saved. He wants everyone to be saved.
1 Tim 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
He chose us to be holy and blameless.
Eph 1:4 “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blame before Him in love.” He chose everyone who would believe in Christ to be holy and blameless.
Christ paid with His life. He made a believer secure with predestination. Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. And He did all this by His grace. Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
He didn’t choose us to be saved. He wants everyone to be saved.
1 Tim 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
He chose us to be holy and blameless.
Eph 1:4 “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blame before Him in love.” He chose everyone who would believe in Christ to be holy and blameless.
Christ paid with His life. He made a believer secure with predestination. Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. And He did all this by His grace. Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
lightninboy
Member
I wanted to know what to tell the Acts 2 Dispensationalist churches, not what to ask them.
Tell them that...lightninboy said:
Peter was still obeying the dietary laws in Acts 8.
Israel was still the focus until Acts 9.
Paul needed to be converted supernaturally by Jesus himself.
Paul was chosen to go to the Gentiles when Jesus had left twelve apostles, and hundreds of disciples behind that had first hand accounts of Jesus speaking.
Paul stresses so hard that he didn't learn any of his gospel from the twelve apostles, even to the point of swearing that he was not lying.
Peter claimed that they are in the time known as the Great Tribulation in Acts 2:14-21.
The early church resorted to a type of communism in Acts 4:32-35, and God blessed the decision in Acts 3:1-10.
Their decision to pool all their money together ended up causing many to starve and Paul have to take up collections for them.
Jesus claimed he would return in their lifetime (Matt 24:34; Mark 9:1) and then did not.
The 70th week of Daniel (i.e. the Great Tribulation), didn't it follow directly after the previous 69 weeks.
That they do not understand the meaning of the parable of the fig tree in Luke 13:6-9.
Tell them when exactly Israel was cut off as accounted by Romans 11:13-20.
Jesus' plan in Matthew 28:19-20 indicates that Israel had not been cut off yet.
Peter indicate that Israel could still have her kingdom in Acts 3:19.
None the messages changed in the time between Acts 2 and Acts 9.
Paul knew that Gentiles need not be circumcised before Acts 15, but the other Apostles had to discuss it among themselves.
Resting in Him,
Clete
lightninboy
Member
But, Clete, what part of that don't they already believe?
patman
Active member
lightninboy said:
I hate to ask you to start over, but I am not very familiar with this thread. Lately other things have kept me from posting like the old days on TOL (sadly) and that goes for reading too.
I have been a christian for almost all my life. I went to a Christian Church. There I was taught God knew the future, but he could change his mind. We were saved by grace but it was conditional on actions. The tribulation was trivial. There was heavy focus on the history and fundamentals of the church.
Since about the age of 11 I changed my life. I decided to be used by God in a bigger way than just being saved, so I became a nerd in the study of the word and in the development of talents. You may wonder how much an 11 year old could learn, but by the age of 12 I had completed my first 5 minute cell animated cartoon on computer complete with mouth synch.
I poured myself into study of all kinds related to God and ways God could use me.
Wow.,, this is getting a little to intimate, so I'll stop by saying I have a lot of study to go through to get to the point I am today, and the point I am at today is "my final answer" to the basic understanding of scripture because It has held up for over 8 years, longer than any other.
All "contradictions" are able to be resolved using mid acts better than anything else. So initially I say that is a big part of my answer.
But verses like this tell me there was a law involvements with salvation:
Matt 19:17b-21 Jesus is speaking:
"...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
I believe it was necessary to TRY to follow the law to keep salvation, even though it was not the following of the law that saved you.
ApologeticJedi
New member
lightninboy said:
Well I prefer to hear if they have an answer first, before I presume to tell them anything. I mean maybe they have a reason all of the passages and questions I give do not seem to line up with their beliefs.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
patman,patman said:
First of all,the Lord Jesus did not say that in order to enter into life,TRY to keep the commandments.
Secondaly,if it was necessary to TRY to follow the law to keep salvation then why would the Lord Jesus say the following to those who were under the law?:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Does this verse show the Lord Jesus saying that in order to be saved that one must TRY to keep the law?patman said:
No,it does not.In fact,it teaches the opposite.He says that those who "believed" receive eternal life and will not come into condemnation.
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If the Acts 2 dispensationalists are correct and the present dispensation started on the day of Pentecost then are we supposed to believe that the following words of Peter represents "Christian" doctrine?:
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).
Mid Acts dispensationalist Sir Robert Anderson says the following about those words spoken by Peter on the day of Pentecost:
To represent this as Christian doctrine, or the institution of "a new religion," is to betray ignorance alike of Judaism and of Christianity The speakers were Jews -the apostles of One who was Himself "a minister of the circumcision." Their hearers were Jews, and as Jews they were addressed. The Pentecostal Church which was based upon the testimony was intensely and altogether Jewish. It was not merely that the converts were Jews, and none but Jews, but that the idea of evangelising Gentiles never was even mooted. When the first great persecution scattered the disciples, and they "went everywhere preaching the Word," they preached, we are expressly told, "to none but to the Jews."' And when after the lapse of years Peter entered a Gentile house, he was publicly called to account for conduct that seemed so strange and wrong.
The Jerusalem Church, then, was Jewish. Their Bible was the Jewish Scriptures. The Jewish temple was their house of prayer and common meeting-place. Their beliefs and hopes and words and acts all marked them out as Jews. Hence the amazing number of the converts. On the day of Pentecost alone three thousand were baptized. Soon afterwards their company would seem to have more than trebled. At the time of the sin and death of Ananias and Sapphira, still further "multitudes, both of men and women," were added to their company. And at the time of the appointment of the men who, by a strange vagary of tradition, have been misnamed "the deacons," it is recorded that "the number of the disciples multiplied In Jerusalem greatly, and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Nothing was further from the thoughts of these men than "founding a new religion." On the contrary, while hailing the rejected Nazarene as their national Messiah, they clung with passionate devotion to the religion of their fathers(Anderson,The Silence of God,pp.75-78).
By placing the beginning of the present dispensation at Pentecost the Acts2 dispensationalists betray ignorance of both Judaism and Christianiry.
I have already shown that these Acts2 people do not even understand the "responsibilities" in regard to the "dispensation of grace".Now we see that they cannot even distinguish between Judaism and Christianity.
This raises the question,Why should anyone believe anything that the Acts2 people say in regard to the beginning of the present dispensation?
In His grace,--Jerry
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).
Mid Acts dispensationalist Sir Robert Anderson says the following about those words spoken by Peter on the day of Pentecost:
To represent this as Christian doctrine, or the institution of "a new religion," is to betray ignorance alike of Judaism and of Christianity The speakers were Jews -the apostles of One who was Himself "a minister of the circumcision." Their hearers were Jews, and as Jews they were addressed. The Pentecostal Church which was based upon the testimony was intensely and altogether Jewish. It was not merely that the converts were Jews, and none but Jews, but that the idea of evangelising Gentiles never was even mooted. When the first great persecution scattered the disciples, and they "went everywhere preaching the Word," they preached, we are expressly told, "to none but to the Jews."' And when after the lapse of years Peter entered a Gentile house, he was publicly called to account for conduct that seemed so strange and wrong.
The Jerusalem Church, then, was Jewish. Their Bible was the Jewish Scriptures. The Jewish temple was their house of prayer and common meeting-place. Their beliefs and hopes and words and acts all marked them out as Jews. Hence the amazing number of the converts. On the day of Pentecost alone three thousand were baptized. Soon afterwards their company would seem to have more than trebled. At the time of the sin and death of Ananias and Sapphira, still further "multitudes, both of men and women," were added to their company. And at the time of the appointment of the men who, by a strange vagary of tradition, have been misnamed "the deacons," it is recorded that "the number of the disciples multiplied In Jerusalem greatly, and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Nothing was further from the thoughts of these men than "founding a new religion." On the contrary, while hailing the rejected Nazarene as their national Messiah, they clung with passionate devotion to the religion of their fathers(Anderson,The Silence of God,pp.75-78).
By placing the beginning of the present dispensation at Pentecost the Acts2 dispensationalists betray ignorance of both Judaism and Christianiry.
I have already shown that these Acts2 people do not even understand the "responsibilities" in regard to the "dispensation of grace".Now we see that they cannot even distinguish between Judaism and Christianity.
This raises the question,Why should anyone believe anything that the Acts2 people say in regard to the beginning of the present dispensation?
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
patman,
Earlier I said:
First of all,the Lord Jesus did not say that in order to enter into life,TRY to keep the commandments.
Secondaly,if it was necessary to TRY to follow the law to keep salvation then why would the Lord Jesus say the following to those who were under the law?:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
To which you replied:
In His grace,--Jerry
Earlier I said:
First of all,the Lord Jesus did not say that in order to enter into life,TRY to keep the commandments.
Secondaly,if it was necessary to TRY to follow the law to keep salvation then why would the Lord Jesus say the following to those who were under the law?:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
To which you replied:
Where does this verse "bluntly show Christ saying to keep the law"?
In His grace,--Jerry
patman
Active member
Jerry Shugart said:
Jerry, nice to know, again, you said all that. But I do not care what you said, I care what HE said.
I am amazed I need to break down such a simple verse.
Matt 19:17b-21 breakdown:
"...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Ok... so. if you want to enter into life... keep the commandments.
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
The rich man wants Jesus to be more specific..
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
So he does. It is the law. Keep those commands to get eternal life.
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
he says "I do those, what else must I do?"
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Become a disciple. That's what else. And that's it. Very clear.
patman
Active member
Jerry,
You posted:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
You had to hear all his words, Jerry. Not just this one-liner. Those words included ""follow the commandments"
You posted:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
You had to hear all his words, Jerry. Not just this one-liner. Those words included ""follow the commandments"
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So what? Paul tells us to keep the commandments of the Lord but that does not mean that we must TRY to keep those commandments in order to be saved.patman said:
The Lord Jesus told the Jews in no uncertain terms that those who "believe" in Him have everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.
The verses which you quoted which you think teaches that the Jews had to TRY to keep the law continue.The rich man left and then we read:
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Mt.19:23-26).
It is indeed possible for a person to TRY to keep the law,but it is entirely a different matter to keep the law perfectly,and that is what is required to earn salvation by law-keeping.
So the verses which you quote do not teach your idea that a Jew must TRY to keep the law in order to be saved.The Lord Jesus revealed another way whereby the Jew could be saved,and that is by "believing".Nothing more:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
What did He say here that you do not understand? His words could not be any plainer.
In HIs grace,--Jerry
Reply to what? I was offline from Saturday to today.lightninboy said:
Okay.lightninboy said:
Not right now. But I do have a Bible study I go to. Have you ever heard of Les Feldick? We watch his videos and discuss.
I need to know what you want me to reply to. I was offline for three days.
Assemblies of God.
Too many Baptist churches are Calvinistic. And I'm an open theist.
If I have not already answered this question, I do not completely agree with either. However, I think I agree with Bob more than I do with Jerry. However, I do agree with Jerry that salvation could not be lost after Christ's death and resurrection. I also believe there was no salvation before the cross.lightninboy said: