The Trinity

[lifeisgood]

You didn't notice that both were God?

keypurr does not believe in Father, Son, Holy Spirit:

So, you deny the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)?

BINGO

 

[Right Divider]

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So you ignore verse 18 to get to verse 19?

 

[Right Divider]

For you my friend, the Greek to English translations:

Hebrews 1:3

(ASV) who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(BBE) Who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;

(Bishops) Who beyng the bryghtnesse of the glorie, and the very image of his substaunce, vpholdyng all thynges with the worde of his power, hauing by him selfe pourged our sinnes, hath syt on the ryght hande of the maiestie on hye:

(CEV) God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side of the glorious God in heaven.

(DRB) Who being the brightness of his glory and the figure of his substance and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high:

(ESV) He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(Geneva) Who being the brightnes of the glory, and the ingraued forme of his person, and bearing vp all things by his mightie worde, hath by himselfe purged our sinnes, and sitteth at the right hand of the Maiestie in the highest places,

(GNB) He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

(GW) His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

(ISV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NAS77) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NASB) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NET.) The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(NIrV) The Son is the gleaming brightness of God's glory. He is the exact likeness of God's being. He uses his powerful word to hold all things together. He provided the way for people to be made pure from sin. Then he sat down at the right hand of the King, the Majesty in heaven.

(NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(NKJV) who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NRSV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NRSVA) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(TNIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(YLT) who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might--through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,


Now the Aramaic to English

who is the splendor of His glory and the exact image of His nature, and upholds all by the power of His Word; and by his Qnoma he made a purification of sins and sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

And each and every one of those is trying to tell you that Jesus is God, but you don't believe it.

 

[Right Divider]

RD, Weren't you going to turn over a new leaf and stop the "you're wrong" without proof replies?

No.

Besides that, you're wrong about me being wrong. Where have I ever said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not the eternal God? That's the type of statement I can agree with: simple, easily derived from scripture, no gnostic nonsense.

So the Father is eternal. the Son is eternal and the Holy Spirit is eternal; where is the problem?

 

[lifeisgood]

Hebrews 1:3

(ASV) who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(BBE) Who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;

(Bishops) Who beyng the bryghtnesse of the glorie, and the very image of his substaunce, vpholdyng all thynges with the worde of his power, hauing by him selfe pourged our sinnes, hath syt on the ryght hande of the maiestie on hye:

(CEV) God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side of the glorious God in heaven.

(DRB) Who being the brightness of his glory and the figure of his substance and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high:

(ESV) He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(Geneva) Who being the brightnes of the glory, and the ingraued forme of his person, and bearing vp all things by his mightie worde, hath by himselfe purged our sinnes, and sitteth at the right hand of the Maiestie in the highest places,

(GNB) He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

(GW) His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

(ISV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NAS77) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NASB) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NET.) The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(NIrV) The Son is the gleaming brightness of God's glory. He is the exact likeness of God's being. He uses his powerful word to hold all things together. He provided the way for people to be made pure from sin. Then he sat down at the right hand of the King, the Majesty in heaven.

(NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(NKJV) who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NRSV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NRSVA) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(TNIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(YLT) who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might--through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,


Now the Aramaic to English

who is the splendor of His glory and the exact image of His nature, and upholds all by the power of His Word; and by his Qnoma he made a purification of sins and sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Awesome verses, keyurr, showing that Christ Jesus is God.

 

[Bright Raven]

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Seems as though John 17:5 also would apply:

John 17:5 Amplified Bible (AMP)

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.

 

[keypurr]

Seems as though John 17:5 also would apply:

John 17:5 Amplified Bible (AMP)

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.

Amen, Christ is second only to the Father. Everything in heaven and earth was created by the Father through Christ, the spirit son.

Jesus came many years later when it was time for God to send his spirit son to dwell in him. This was God's plan all along.

Its hard for most to see the greatness of the son and realize that he has a God. But he does tell you that all power was given to him so there is one greater than all, the Father.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Bright Raven]

Amen, Christ is second only to the Father. Everything in heaven and earth was created by the Father through Christ, the spirit son.

Jesus came many years later when it was time for God to send his spirit son to dwell in him. This was God's plan all along.

Its hard for most to see the greatness of the son and realize that he has a God. But he does tell you that all power was given to him so there is one greater than all, the Father.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

The verse doesn't say that Christ is second but that He in all the glory and majesty of God with God before the world began

 

[Rosenritter]

Not biblically derived still. But interesting poster, as it would classify Trinity champion James White as a polytheist.

 

[Rosenritter]

No.


So the Father is eternal. the Son is eternal and the Holy Spirit is eternal; where is the problem?

The primary problem is that you don't have any shame in declaring "wrong" without evidence. That and the whole jumping to assumptions and attacking people without knowing what you are attacking...

 

[Rosenritter]

Amen, Christ is second only to the Father. Everything in heaven and earth was created by the Father through Christ, the spirit son.

Jesus came many years later when it was time for God to send his spirit son to dwell in him. This was God's plan all along.

Its hard for most to see the greatness of the son and realize that he has a God. But he does tell you that all power was given to him so there is one greater than all, the Father.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

I have a web site for which I have written content as an author. But for some matters I would defer them to my webmaster. Want to guess who my webmaster is?

Because if that is your key sticking point (and it seems that it is) it should have just come unstuck.

 

[keypurr]

I have a web site for which I have written content as an author. But for some matters I would defer them to my webmaster. Want to guess who my webmaster is?

Because if that is your key sticking point (and it seems that it is) it should have just come unstuck.

Send me a personal on the site and I will check it out. I do not wish to encourage you to break any rules here on TOL.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Right Divider]

The primary problem is that you don't have any shame in declaring "wrong" without evidence. That and the whole jumping to assumptions and attacking people without knowing what you are attacking...

Shame on you for trying to shame me.

So you agreed that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were eternal; then what is wrong with the doctrine that says just that?

 

[CherubRam]

And each and every one of those is trying to tell you that Jesus is God, but you don't believe it.

Christ said that the Father is greater than him.

 

[CherubRam]

Error on my part. Sorry.

 

[CherubRam]

And Yahwah speaks through Isaiah saying: "I will not give my glory unto another."


Isaiah 48:11
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

 

[Rosenritter]

And Yahwah speaks through Isaiah saying: "I will not give my glory unto another."


Isaiah 48:11
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Thank you. Had been a while and I forgot that was one of the finishing touches. If God will not give his name and glory to another, but Jesus has that name and that glory, then what does that make Jesus?

Isa 48:11-13 KJV
(11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
(13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Rev 2:8 KJV
(8) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Joh 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 KJV
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus did claim the names and glory of God. If he was not God, he would have been a blasphemer, and if he was a blasphemer, he would not have been raised and received in glory. Therefore, because he was raised, he was our God. If you accept the scripture, this is the inevitable result.

 

[Rosenritter]

Shame on you for trying to shame me.

So you agreed that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were eternal; then what is wrong with the doctrine that says just that?

There is nothing wrong with a doctrine that says just that. Has someone presented a doctrine that says just that here? They usually have quite a lot more added on besides just that. It's the parts added on besides that become a problem when they speak without scriptural support, and then condemn others for not accepting their words on faith over scripture.

Let's take the James White example for comparison. At the beginning I looked to a description of "Trinity" posted on another thread, and found that over fifty percent of their definitions were from a "James White." I look up James White and he said that "One God" meant "One species of God being" and that "multiple people" existed within that species, that were all "Fully God" by being part of that species. He used the example of "One Cat" being One because all cats were of the same "Being."

James White was not preaching "just that" but he was the definition of "Trinity." I asked multiple times on this forum and it came back affirmative each time. If "Trinity" means that one can preach nonsense like that and be accepted because the word "Trinity" is more holy than truth, then I want no part of it. If "Trinity" means that one can abuse others who have not "signed on" then I don't want to be associated with it either. I'll take scripture instead please.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your statement. You said "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternal" which sounds agreeable, because that is a way of referencing the One God. I could also say "the Alpha and Omega is eternal" because it's another way of pointing to the same being. But if what you really meant was "There are separate people who are eternal" or "God was known as the Son of God from eternity" then that is without scriptural basis, even contradicted by scripture.

So it depends whether you want agreement on scriptural grounds, or disagreement on non-scriptural Trinitarian grounds.

 

[Right Divider]

There is nothing wrong with a doctrine that says just that. Has someone presented a doctrine that says just that here? They usually have quite a lot more added on besides just that. It's the parts added on besides that become a problem when they speak without scriptural support, and then condemn others for not accepting their words on faith over scripture.

I could care less what "they" say. You seem to freely accuse by a false "guilt by association" tactic. Instead of trying to use the "broad brush" on me (really more like a paint roller), why don't you limit your accusations against me to things that I actually post?

Let's take the James White example for comparison. At the beginning I looked to a description of "Trinity" posted on another thread, and found that over fifty percent of their definitions were from a "James White." I look up James White and he said that "One God" meant "One species of God being" and that "multiple people" existed within that species, that were all "Fully God" by being part of that species. He used the example of "One Cat" being One because all cats were of the same "Being."

Once again, I don't associate myself with James White and could care less what HE says or what anyone says about what HE says.

Just to CLARIFY, I completely disagree with his absolutely horrible explanation that you show here (if he really does say that, as I have no desire to verify it). There is NOT "one cat being", but there is one cat KIND. All cats are of the same cat KIND, they are NOT all the same cat being. Each ONE is a cat being.

James White was not preaching "just that" but he was the definition of "Trinity." I asked multiple times on this forum and it came back affirmative each time. If "Trinity" means that one can preach nonsense like that and be accepted because the word "Trinity" is more holy than truth, then I want no part of it. If "Trinity" means that one can abuse others who have not "signed on" then I don't want to be associated with it either. I'll take scripture instead please.

Well you can rest comfortably in the knowledge that James White is NOT THE ultimate definer of this doctrine.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your statement. You said "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternal" which sounds agreeable, because that is a way of referencing the One God. I could also say "the Alpha and Omega is eternal" because it's another way of pointing to the same being. But if what you really meant was "There are separate people who are eternal" or "God was known as the Son of God from eternity" then that is without scriptural basis, even contradicted by scripture.

Apparently you cannot agree that a Father is a person and that a Son is a person (and also the Holy Spirit as well). With that problem, I cannot help you.

The Bible describes each of these persons, giving them all of the attributes of person-hood and YET says that they are God (and that there is ONE God).

So it depends whether you want agreement on scriptural grounds, or disagreement on non-scriptural Trinitarian grounds.

I will stick with the scripture grounds that they are all persons and that they are the one God.

Do you also have a problem with the two natures of Jesus Christ?

P.S. If you're obsessed with correcting James White, why don't you write to James White?

P.P.S. Are you like GT and believe that Jesus was "the Father with a body"?

 

[way 2 go]

opcorn: