The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by Knight

Actually we are not going around in cricles. We are going around in HALF circles. Your half of the circle is still missing.

There should be no reason you cannot answer the following question.....

How can Skip choose anything other than what God foreknows?

I'm sorry, I thouhgt I answered the question. What you say does make sense, but the problem I have with rejecting closed view is that, to me, it makes sense that Skip could have chosen either and yet God knew ahead of time what Skip would choose. Skip can only make one choice and he has the free will to chose either, but God could also know which one that Skip will choose.

Now, having said that, please understand that I do not profess to be a "closed" viewist. I am simply trying to understand both sides. I know that God does not want to lose a single person to the dark side, as it were, and the closed view does run it problems on a much larger scale. Although, I still am having a hard time with the concept that God's knowledge of our future actions (for instance, Skip rejecting him) causes Skip to lose free will. Maybe the future is only half closed or half open. Like I said, I am merely trying to comprehend the whole concept from as many angles as I can. To be honest, I find the idea of time very facinating.

 

[Jackielabby]

GOD'S FLAT EARTH (part 3) - Revelation 20:7-8
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle.

Is this not a statement about the future, Lighthouse?

 

[dave boy]

Clete, "He's forgotten more about the Bible and God then you will ever know.."

I think your summary of Bob is right on there!

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by dave boy

Clete, "He's forgotten more about the Bible and God then you will ever know.."

I think your summary of Bob is right on there!

This is one of those tricky phrases which without hearing it can be read both as a compliment and an insult. :think:

Since this is your opening post here on TOL I'll assume the former and say thanks and welcome to TOL. :thumb:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ninjashadow
Now, having said that, please understand that I do not profess to be a "closed" viewist. I am simply trying to understand both sides.

I think you seem to be a reasonable person! I am enjoying this discussion I hope you are as well.

You continnue...

I know that God does not want to lose a single person to the dark side, as it were, and the closed view does run it problems on a much larger scale. Although, I still am having a hard time with the concept that God's knowledge of our future actions (for instance, Skip rejecting him) causes Skip to lose free will.

I think I have demonstrated pretty clearly that there is no other alternative.

Maybe pray about it some and we can move on to the next item of evidence and possibly revisit that topic later if you like. OK?

You continue...

Maybe the future is only half closed or half open. Like I said, I am merely trying to comprehend the whole concept from as many angles as I can. To be honest, I find the idea of time very facinating.

In a way you are right on target (even from a open theist perspective) in that God can indeed close parts of the future if He so desires.

For instance... lets say God announces... Jesus will be raised in three days.

Unless God has reason to alter His plan there is no stopping Him! After-all He is God.... the most powerful force in all existence! God will bring this event to pass and in essence close that part of the future...... that event is GOING to occur!

However based on what we read in the Bible God doesn't seem to want to close all the future or even most of the future and certainly doesn't seem to want to close the future in the day to day small of details (i.e. what flavor of ice cream we may choose). And His method of closing the future doesn't involve "seeing" the future but simply making a plan for the future and bringing that event to pass.

Lets move on shall we?
Why do you think God has "seen" the future in every detail?

What is your reasoning or rational for that assertion? You can answer any way you like and feel free to use scripture to back up your answer (if you desire).

P.S. I am going to Dallas on Friday morning for my sons hockey tournament. Therefore I will have a little less time than normal to respond, so please be patient with me and my responses. I will have my laptop with me and I will probably have spare time but I can't be certain.

Thanks in advance for your fellowship!

 

[1Way]

Why?

Why?

Is there a reason that jjjg and ninjashadow keep ignoring what I post to them? I posted why God can't have exhaustive foreknowledge and man have free will, and jjjg asks, why can't God have exhaustive foreknowledge and man have free will immediately after my posts including that issue. And then ninjashadow ignores my repeated posts.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

Originally posted by 1Way

Is there a reason that jjjg and ninjashadow keep ignoring what I post to them? I posted why God can't have exhaustive foreknowledge and man have free will, and jjjg say, why can't God have exhaustive foreknowledge and man have free will immediately after my posts over that issue, and then ninjashadow also ignores my posts too, repeatedly they ignore my posts.

Just so you know.... jjjg was banned on account of being a first class jerk.

I think ninja is doing the best he can. He is getting quizzed from several angles so I doubt he is ignoring you on purpose.

Just me 2 cents!

 

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by 1Way

ninjashadow,
I find your discussion with Knight interesting.

I trust Knight's approach very much, and I don't want to detract from your discussion, but on the other hand, I already made this post and I think it might prove helpful. So I'll post it and I ask you to stick with Knight and simply consider my post if you have time to do so. I hope you find this helpful.

You said Two things.
1
No limits on God
First, does God's very character and ways limit God? Is God good and righteous and loving and just and holy? If so, then can God violate or contradict what He is? No, that is silly, yet at the same time, and thankfully God is faithful, we have good reason to trust our Lord and Savior because we know He cannot lie, He can not cease to be God as He is everlasting, and so on. So your idea that God must not have limits is frankly not particularly conforming to what God actually is.

I believe that God is unchanging in His character and ways...

Secondly, if God always has all knowledge of everything that will ever happen, then we have several problems to deal with.

2a
Exhaustive foreknowledge and man's free will
First is according to your question, can't man have free will and God have exhaustive foreknowledge. I suppose that depends on how you define free will. According to my view, free will entails the idea that man has true authentic options to choose from. The future might unfold in numerous authentic different ways because everyone might do different things because what they will do is truly to some extent "uncertain".

But, if all of time has absolutely no uncertainty, everything that will ever happen has "no choice" but to happen as it is locked into happening, then there truly are: no options, no uncertainty, no real choices, just one unalterable destiny, thus by my definition of free will, there is no free will if there is no uncertainty.

2b
Exhaustive foreknowledge and divine repentance
The second problem is that God does not lie, right? But in His word, God rationally explains and demonstrates that He sometimes relents/repents by not doing what He said and/or thought He was going to do. Whether you agree with that concept or not, that is what God's word says God does. So at least from my perspective, rational divine repentance is a bible truth that contradicts the view that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, ,,, because if God knows everything that will ever happen, then of course He would never truthfully change His mind and not do what He thought He was going to do, instead, He would always do what He always knew He was going to do.

Sorry I haven't responded to all of your posts yet, but I did respond to one.

1. I think that the only limits that God has are the ones that are self imposed.

2a. I believe that free will is that man can choose to do whatever he wants to do. So I guess I have a similar view of free will.

2b. If God has an exhaustive knowledge of the future, then he would already know if he chose to change his mind then, wouldn't he?

 

[Ninjashadow]

Re: Re: Why?

Re: Re: Why?

Originally posted by Knight

Just so you know.... jjjg was banned on account of being a first class jerk.

I think ninja is doing the best he can. He is getting quizzed from several angles so I doubt he is ignoring you on purpose.

Just me 2 cents!

You are right. I'm trying my best to keep up with everyone, so it just takes me a little longer to respond.

I will respond to the last question you had for me later when I have more time.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: Why?

Re: Re: Re: Why?

Originally posted by ninjashadow

You are right. I'm trying my best to keep up with everyone, so it just takes me a little longer to respond.

I will respond to the last question you had for me later when I have more time.

:up:

No rush.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

Could you please cite specific passage (in context) to back up you statement?

"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
-Genesis 6:6

"And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
-Exodus 32:14

"And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."
-1 Samuel 15:35

These are all examples of God being sorry about something. Why would He be sorry, or grieved if He knew it was going to happen? And why would He change His mind, as is the case of Exodus 32:14 [and also the story of Nineveh in Jonah] if He already knew what was going to happen?

Also, why don't you answer my question, and Knight's as well: If God knows everything we will ever do, can we do anything different than what He knows we will do? This has nothing to do with whether or not God influences what happens, so leave that out of it and just answer the question.

Also, since jjjg never got a chance to answer, do you really believe that God knows everytime that I will ever go to the toilet?

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Jackielabby

GOD'S FLAT EARTH (part 3) - Revelation 20:7-8
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle.

Is this not a statement about the future, Lighthouse?

I'm beginning to think that the anti-Christ children [like you] hate me.:think: Praise Jesus!:bannana:

Now, to answer your question:
The Lord knows what He will do, what He will allow to happen, for His purposes, and when He will do these things. Some of them He knows well before He does them. Others He knows when a reason to do them arises. However, I do not believe that the Lord knows everytime that I will sneeze.

ninjashadow-
You hit the nail on the head when you brought up the idea of partially closed/partially open. See my response to Jackielabby [he must like being thought of as a dog, since he chose that name].

 

[dave boy]

I agree with the opposite arguments.

You have to accept scripture on faith. You cannot at the same time completely rationalize all this.

Besides, you people are reading whatever you want to into the scripture passages.

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by dave boy

I agree with the opposite arguments.

You have to accept scripture on faith. You cannot at the same time completely rationalize all this.

Besides, you people are reading whatever you want to into the scripture passages.

dave boy,
It helps to either quote the post that you are referring to or to address the person that you are posting to. Clete had a little trouble understanding you in your first post and now your second still seems a little vague. What are the "opposite arguments" that you agree with?

 

[1Way]

ninjashadow,
I went back and I did not see you answer any of my posts. I have posted to you three different times with two different posts and this was your first response. I'm not trying to rush you, I'm just trying to understand why you said that you had already responded.

You said

1. I think that the only limits that God has are the ones that are self imposed.

You don't seem to be clarifying things between your view and mine. Please explain your answer in light of my view. Here is what I said.

1
No limits on God
First, does God's very character and ways limit God? Is God good and righteous and loving and just and holy? If so, then can God violate or contradict what He is? No, that is silly, yet at the same time, and thankfully God is faithful, we have good reason to trust our Lord and Savior because we know He cannot lie, He can not cease to be God as He is everlasting, and so on. So your idea that God must not have limits is frankly not particularly conforming to what God actually is.

I believe that God is unchanging in His character and ways...

Do you mean, for example, that God chooses to be an everlasting God? I gave you some specific examples to show how I think your view was wrong, but you did not respond to any of them. Do you agree or disagree with my view on point 1?

You said

2a. I believe that free will is that man can choose to do whatever he wants to do. So I guess I have a similar view of free will.

Here is what I said.

Secondly, if God always has all knowledge of everything that will ever happen, then we have several problems to deal with.

2a
Exhaustive foreknowledge and man's free will
First is according to your question, can't man have free will and God have exhaustive foreknowledge. I suppose that depends on how you define free will. According to my view, free will entails the idea that man has true authentic options to choose from. The future might unfold in numerous authentic different ways because everyone might do different things because what they will do is truly to some extent "uncertain".

But, if all of time has absolutely no uncertainty, everything that will ever happen has "no choice" but to happen as it is locked into happening, then there truly are: no options, no uncertainty, no real choices, just one unalterable destiny, thus by my definition of free will, there is no free will if there is no uncertainty.

The issue of free will is not so much about choosing what you want to do or not, because a computer or a puppet can simulate that pretty well, yet most people do not agree that a puppet or a computer has free will. You need to eliminate others from control over your will, you are free to govern your own will from any other sources than yourself. And to utilize freewill, you must live in a world where various outcomes to any given situation may happen as a result of personal choices.

Now, back to your theology as I understand it so far. By your view, no one can do whatever they want to do, they have no choice but to do what God foreknows they must do. The lack of optional outcomes eliminates free will because there are no alternative choices to choose from, it's, would you like a cheeseburger and fries tonight, or how about the manager's special instead? It's a cheeseburger with fries! That is not a choice, there are no alternatives, no options, thus, no free will.

Here is what I said.

2b
Exhaustive foreknowledge and divine repentance
The second problem is that God does not lie, right? But in His word, God rationally explains and demonstrates that He sometimes relents/repents by not doing what He said and/or thought He was going to do. Whether you agree with that concept or not, that is what God's word says God does. So at least from my perspective, rational divine repentance is a bible truth that contradicts the view that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, ,,, because if God knows everything that will ever happen, then of course He would never truthfully change His mind and not do what He thought He was going to do, instead, He would always do what He always knew He was going to do.

You said

2b. If God has an exhaustive knowledge of the future, then he would already know if he chose to change his mind then, wouldn't he?

If you emphasize that God has no limits, then maybe that sounds reasonable, but if you consider that God is righteous and just and holy and good and does not lie, then your idea servers strongly to contradict (in various ways or degrees) all of these well known facts about God! God is a bit sensitive about how people represent God, He requires that His followers should not portray Him in a bad light. To say that you are changing your mind, when all along you never changed your mind, is a perfect lie and a logical contradiction that can not be true. However God is true and He does not lie, so it is elementary that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge and also changes His mind because they are completely incompatible.

 

[1Way]

dave boy,
You said

(1) You have to accept scripture on faith. (2) You cannot at the same time completely rationalize all this.

(3) Besides, you people are reading whatever you want to into the scripture passages.

(1) 1 - This is an incomplete thought. The demon's believe Jesus is God, but they fear and tremble and will go to hell. So some unspecified faith is not how we have to accept scripture.

2 - God describes faith as being substantial and evidential, it's about as rational and scientifically based as could be. God asks us to believe in things not seen because of things we experience and know and fully understand. The Christian faith is a fully rational and reasonable faith.

Colossians 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and [attaining] to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,

(2) That is a very dangerous sounding statement. To go against rationalization is to promote irrationality. There is no way to diminish the one without lifting up the other. God explains Himself relying on logic and reason through literally thousands of truth claims we find in the scriptures. He expects us to rightly divide the word of truth, to love to truth that we might become saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

God is called the way the truth and the life, we must accept Him (the Truth) and not reject His word to become saved.

But maybe I am not understanding what you meant, please explain.

(3) Who are the people you are referring to? Please don't generalize such a harsh judgment and not even provide a clear example.

 

[dave boy]

Reason might lead us to making a leap of faith, but faith itself is mystery and our full understanding of the free will/full knowledge of God is partially mystery to us.

Maybe that is where the real argument lies. Not necessary in God being all knowledgable, but that he predestines us for heaven or hell.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by dave boy

I agree with the opposite arguments.

As Poly asked, what arguments would those be exactly?

You have to accept scripture on faith. You cannot at the same time completely rationalize all this.

Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things unseen.
There is nothing irrational about substantive evidence. While it is, of course, true that we cannot know everything there is to know about God, we can know quite a lot about God, which was the point of His having created us in the first place. Besides, that which we cannot know, we are not responsible for. The point is, that faith and rationality (not rationalism) are not mutually exclusive but are instead complimentary.

Besides, you people are reading whatever you want to into the scripture passages.

I don't know you at all so I will stop well short of calling you a liar but this statement is patently untrue. In fact, it has been my experience that it is the those hold to the classical view of God who, knowingly or otherwise, read pagan ideas, like the immutability of God and His exhaustive foreknowledge of future events, into Scripture. Perhaps you could point out a passage that you feel one of us has read something into.
It is our position that the Biblical evidence presents a God who does not know the future exhaustively (or even mostly) and who most certainly does change in very dramatic ways. All we do is take the Aristotelian colored classes off when reading the Bible. To put it plainly, if the Bible does not teach what we are saying then we are wrong, period.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[dave boy]

Clete, no offense.

But I have read your posts and you call people liars and jerks. Why doesn't anybody reprimand you?

On the other hand it looks like if people make comments against this Bob guy than they are booted off.

I think there is some serious biases on this site. I thought this site was open to discuss all different points of view, but looks biased to Bob's point of view only.

Why don't you just rename the site "enyart's theology online" and then people will know it's a waste of time to come here unless you follow Enyart.

Bye.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by dave boy

Reason might lead us to making a leap of faith, but faith itself is mystery and our full understanding of the free will/full knowledge of God is partially mystery to us.

How did you come up with this, exactly? Do you beleive this because you a personally unable to explain certain things or have you actually determined by some logical means that such knowledge cannot be attained? As you will come to find out, one of my favorite things to remind people is that saying something doesn't make it so. Can you prove this statement of yours or is it simply your opinion?

Maybe that is where the real argument lies. Not necessary in God being all knowledgable, but that he predestines us for heaven or hell.

It is effectively the same question. Actually both theological position have their genesis in the notion that God is totally immutable, that He cannot change in any way whatsoever.
If you are interested in how these ideas are connected read this.:readthis:

Resting in Him,
Clete