ECT The Rebellion that Desolates

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SaulToPaul 2

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Daniel 9
9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Daniel 11
11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.



How can anyone miss that this is not the LORD Jesus Christ?
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Daniel 9
9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Daniel 11
11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.



How can anyone miss that this is not the LORD Jesus Christ?

You have to REALLY REALLY WANT to miss it.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
1, instead of being irrational like STP and starting with the last reference, I started with the first, the rebellion that desolates. it is locked into time and history, history which we can look back upon, but which to you is a sin to know about. Can't help you there. All a person has to do is compare how Paul came across in Luke-Acts with what the zealots/Galileans were like at that time. But it is a sin for you to know. Ca't help you there. Then you would see that that rebellion truly did desolate the country, and that, among other risks, Jesus took his best shot at trying to get such people to back off, for ex., in what he said in Luke 13:1 plus about how they should expect Israel to be treated in that generation.

You speak theoretically about a 'cutting off of Israel' but it is not a doctrinaire theology theory; it was about the actual conditions on the ground right there. Notice the next parable of 13:6. Or that he already sees it as desolate in 31-35. That's barely half way through his 'ministry.' Nor is it an all or nothing issue; many Jews believed and became missionaries.

2, I don't know--have not concluded from my reading--whether Daniel in 11-12 was trying to say something else about freedom fighters during the inter-testament period.
 

SaulToPaul 2

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1, instead of being irrational like STP and starting with the last reference, I started with the first, the rebellion that desolates. it is locked into time and history, history which we can look back upon, but which to you is a sin to know about. Can't help you there. All a person has to do is compare how Paul came across in Luke-Acts with what the zealots/Galileans were like at that time. But it is a sin for you to know. Ca't help you there. Then you would see that that rebellion truly did desolate the country, and that, among other risks, Jesus took his best shot at trying to get such people to back off, for ex., in what he said in Luke 13:1 plus about how they should expect Israel to be treated in that generation.

You speak theoretically about a 'cutting off of Israel' but it is not a doctrinaire theology theory; it was about the actual conditions on the ground right there. Notice the next parable of 13:6. Or that he already sees it as desolate in 31-35. That's barely half way through his 'ministry.' Nor is it an all or nothing issue; many Jews believed and became missionaries.

2, I don't know--have not concluded from my reading--whether Daniel in 11-12 was trying to say something else about freedom fighters during the inter-testament period.

Who was the prince of the covenant? We deserve to know his identity.
 

SaulToPaul 2

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2, I don't know--have not concluded from my reading--whether Daniel in 11-12 was trying to say something else about freedom fighters during the inter-testament period.

It is painfully obvious that the prince of covenant of Daniel 11 is the same individual who confirms the covenant for one week in Daniel 9. Why do you fight against this? Because of your agenda?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
It is the abomination of desolation. The man of sin erects an image in the temple, and demands to be worshiped as God. Your premise is faulty, on purpose.






You need to stop thinking in strict english categories until you have the picture. But I don't know how a person like you ever gets the picture when you screw history.

There is a predicted rebellion in 8:13, with a leader, and it is going to ruin Israel. The expression starts as that, the rebellion that desolates Israel and a rebellion is an abomination. (Remember, for all the separation of the Torah, the unusual thing about Daniel was the command he received to 'seek the prosperity of the city where you have been place.' That is a hint of what was to come.) We have to see the dismay of Daniel in his wait for the prayer to be answered. How could Israel possibly be desolated? And what is even more strange, how could it be desolated while Messiah succeeds in what he was going to do?

The vision of ch 9 is necessarily connected. That rebellion has a timestamp. The guy leading it will ruin the place, though admittedly how a 3rd party is involved with the rebel leader is not clear. The end of the rebellion is in that generation, considered a flood to the end, which is why the flood imagery of Mt 25 exists. Messiah accomplishes the Gospel, while the charming rebel leader ruins Israel.

the history could not be more clear. It is exactly what happened.

If you feel compelled to make something about ch 11-12 change that picture, I don't know how you change history.

The blame of the 8-9 scenario falls on Israel for following a rebel, hence it is a rebellion that (causing) desolation. It does not fall on Israel for a 3rd party bringing in a pagan image. Christ didn't do that either. He said the person, the AofD, would be found in the temple and also be rounding up people in the wilderness. Every other Israelite would follow him. We know from Christ's own experience that claiming to be God at the temple was the height of irreverence, and that person would do so, claiming to have God's power to be victorious against Rome as in Israel's past battles.

It is all dialed in to that generation of Israel, which is why the 'test' of that generation is such a strong theme in Hebrews. And the end of the world was expected shortly.

With the clarity of that picture and of Christ about that picture, I see no need to be concerned about 11-12's material, for which I think there are reasons it applies to other intertestament battles.

It is totally puzzling to me, when there are skeptics who want to move everything in Daniel to the intertestament period (both origination and subject), that such a clear segment of 8-9 is missed equally by skeptics as by D'ists.

It must be that appeal you have, STP, 'just believe me.' You move everything to the future, which as far as I know has not happened yet, and say 'just believe.' That's what irrationality is. They are irrationally against God announcing the future; you are irrationally against history where that announcement was fulfilled.
 

Interplanner

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Even if there was an agenda, it would be to show that the 'Seed would bless all nations.' That is the message we are to get out there, and which Israel was in that generation. Your agenda is nowhere in the NT and is despised by Hebrews, which was talking about THE WORLD TO COME, ABOUT WHICH WE ARE SPEAKING.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Although D'ists and 2P2Ps know more about the Bible than Christ, Christ made one remark about the AofD person and that was that he would ruin the country in that generation. I don't need your help, and you need to fix your pain, about understanding that it is that simple and is to be believed. You are just a crock of contradiction, whether speaking of agendas or speaking of 'just believe' or paying attention to the text.

So there is no need to bother with your other issues when that's all Christ had to say about it, and it has taken place as he said.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
We are patiently waiting for Interplanner to identify this 'historical' prince of the covenant...Daniel, chapter 11.

If this character is indeed in our past, we cannot accept "it could be" or "I do not know"...
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
There is a predicted rebellion in 8:13, with a leader, and it is going to ruin Israel.

Who did this?


Daniel 8
8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?


It is the same character here in chapter 8, as in 9 and 11. It is the man of sin, the prince of the covenant.

Who was he?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
How many times does Christ have to say that the country will be desolated in that generation by that guy in Judea, in the 1st century...
before you, with 2P2P BLARING IN TO YOUR MIND'S EARPHONES DAY AND NIGHT, finally realize that that country will be desolated in that generation by that guy, in Judea, in the 1st century?

You are too thick for me to deal with STP. You don't show the slightest awareness of the entrenchments you are in from the fraud Darby who believed the bible needed him to make sense. "Man of sin" "prince of the covenant" are TM labels that you have petrified beyond the ability to envision. Add to that the SIN OF KNOWING HISTORY and we are really stuck.

Add to that the hackneyed way of reading Isaiah. Whenever he says God/christ is going to do something for Israel after all the morass of their exile, you leapfrog through the centuries to the future! You never see anything in Christ, anything being accomplished in christ, even when the NT is full of reference to such.

You're the literalist: how, exactly, do you cast truth to the ground, 8:12? Sorry to point this out to you, but you are part of it. The guy wanted Israel to be the ruler of the world, to defeat Rome, to reign from the Temple. He "cast truth to the ground" when the truth is actually up in Christ who was speaking about the world to come, about which we are speaking.

How about the restoration that the prophets have spoken about since the world began? Really? Israel didn't exist for a couple thousand years later, and the restoration of that didn't even get mentioned until it was crushed in exile. So who are they and how could they possibly be talking about a restoration of Israel, when it was guys speaking before Israel existed. About a restoration of everything: the world of which we are speaking.

There is not a line anywhere in NT beliefs or eschatology that needs Israel in place. There is no place where it is the hubnut that we are all waiting for to be in place to make everything happen.
 
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