ECT The Rebellion that Desolates

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Interplanner

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Daniel 8-11 are all about the man of sin, and the abomination of desolation.
Which first century character fits all of the description?




We have to go with what Christ identified in Mt 24 etc as being a person in the 1st century when the 490 were done.

I don't see where you answered about the gap you thought I had, but which you have.

I don't know for sure, but last I checked I could not find a way for Dan 11-12 to refer to anything other than the intertestament struggles of the Maccabeans, when Greeks ruled.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
I don't see any of them matching the descriptions in Daniel.
And, I am not willing to leave out details or bend them to make some 1st century character "fit".




But you are willing to bend 490 so that it means 490 + X000.
 

SaulToPaul 2

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Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
I don't see any of them matching the descriptions in Daniel.
And, I am not willing to leave out details or bend them to make some 1st century character "fit".




But you are willing to bend 490 so that it means 490 + X000.

No, I do not see where it says 70 consecutive weeks are determined upon your people.
You, too, have a gap. You have the 70th week completed in 70ad.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
No, I do not see where it says 70 consecutive weeks are determined upon your people.
You, too, have a gap. You have the 70th week completed in 70ad.





So you are admitting that you make up gaps, that no one in Scripture ever mentions or is aware of, and they are not at the breaks of 7 or 69 anyway?

Just look again at the language about "the end."

The antecedent for "he will confirm..." is Messiah. In other words, within half a 'week' after his being cut off, the new covenant is not only launched, it is confirmed. He's referring to the beginning of the church. "Putting an end to sacrifice and offering" is in the doctrinal sense, like Hebrews says expansively. But he did say the house would be desolate, and there's that word: desolate!

The "end" however, is already described as less precise: it comes like a flood (v26b). There is 'war til the end' and decreed desolations (does not this expression have an amazing way of 'spanning' the NT period? The desolations are decreed early but take place as events a little later.)

Therefore, my conclusion is that v27a is a backtrack. Having detailed the 'end' and the desolations, he goes back to the upbeat Messiah and his accomplishments (v24) once more, and then back to the leader of the rebellion that desolates to finish 27b.

I don't have all the details handy, but have read excellent work-ups of the the "middle of that 'seven'" being 33 AD.

We would all be inclined to think that the antecedent for "He" in v27 would only refer back to 'the ruler who will come.' But I can't get the thing to resolve that way. And 'ruler who will come' reaches all the way back into ch 8. Thus making 8-9 a unit again.

We would also be inclined to think that the other name for Messiah (the ruler) would be connected to 'the ruler who will come', but again it does not resolve that way.

The most realistic thing about the whole paragraph is that there is trouble during the whole period! v25b.
 

SaulToPaul 2

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Regarding the FAULTY idea that Daniel 9's, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..." is referring to the LORD, please see below:


Daniel 11
11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.


11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.


11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.



Certainly not the LORD Jesus Christ, but rather the man of sin.
It takes an incredible amount of gymnastics to pervert Daniel 9.
 

SaulToPaul 2

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Daniel 9
9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



The normal reading of this passage is that the cutting off of Messiah is at the 483 year point.
The city and sanctuary are destroyed.
The final week begins when the prince of the covenant (chapter 11) confirms it.

There is no need to pervert the passage. Let it say what it says.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Regarding the FAULTY idea that Daniel 9's, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..." is referring to the LORD, please see below:


Daniel 11
11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.


11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.


11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.



Certainly not the LORD Jesus Christ, but rather the man of sin.
It takes an incredible amount of gymnastics to pervert Daniel 9.




I believe that is a completely different set of events, and has to do with intertestament stuff, and I'm just sticking with Christ saying that the person would be in Judea in that timeframe, because it has solid basis, being the end of the 490.

Don't take a defined figure 2 chapters and several centuries removed from one chapter and press him on to another.

Once again, it is entirely understandable to think that the "He" of v27 would refer grammatically to the destroying "ruler" and not Messiah. But that introduces a deceptive meaning to confirm and to covenant, and the person who causes desolation, already identified, has not yet been named in 25-27 and is not until 27b.

It turns clear when that "He" is back to Messiah, and the covenant is positive. "Many" is often used for those who believe, as in Is 53, he will justify many.

There is also the issue of fault. Why would God judge a country for something another party did? The rebellion that desolates is a phrase that establishes fault. It is that rebellion that caused the desolation. It had a leader, the 'completely wicked, master of intrigue.' This is why research the revolution in general is very valuable.

27b is linked to ch 8 because there is no other place/source from which the expression 'the one who causes desolation' could have come from.
 

SaulToPaul 2

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Once again, it is entirely understandable to think that the "He" of v27 would refer grammatically to the destroying "ruler" and not Messiah. But that introduces a deceptive meaning to confirm and to covenant, and the person who causes desolation, already identified, has not yet been named in 25-27 and is not until 27b.

Which covenant did the prince of chapter 11 turn against in the intertestament period?
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Regarding Daniel 11 being about the past, about a figure during the "intertestament period":


Daniel 11
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


He comes to his end. And now the first verse of the next chaper.


Daniel 12
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



There is 0% chance that this is about anything other than the very end of this world as we know it, just before the LORD Jesus Christ makes his glorious return.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
What is your reasoning for this?
Who was the person of chapter 11, then? Who fulfilled all of these details?




Background I've read, even by McDowell. I'm content to go with the passage Christ used in the timeframe he meant. It is locked into that generation. Christ even goes and uses the 'not since creation' expression about it.

The quagmire is caused by 2P2P removing this from a normal conversation about what was going to happen to them in that generation, with all its immediate Judean warnings. To complete its insult, 2P2P asks: where are the passages about that generation in the NT, about the immediate expectation? The way to jam the opponent is to undercut the obvious, just like evolution about the cataclysm: "There is no evidence anywhere of a global flood"--Wikipedia.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Background I've read, even by McDowell. I'm content to go with the passage Christ used in the timeframe he meant. It is locked into that generation. Christ even goes and uses the 'not since creation' expression about it.

The quagmire is caused by 2P2P removing this from a normal conversation about what was going to happen to them in that generation, with all its immediate Judean warnings. To complete its insult, 2P2P asks: where are the passages about that generation in the NT, about the immediate expectation? The way to jam the opponent is to undercut the obvious, just like evolution about the cataclysm: "There is no evidence anywhere of a global flood"--Wikipedia.

Who was the person of chapter 11, then? Who fulfilled all of these details?
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Regarding Daniel 11 being about the past, about a figure during the "intertestament period":


Daniel 11
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


He comes to his end. And now the first verse of the next chaper.


Daniel 12
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



There is 0% chance that this is about anything other than the very end of this world as we know it, just before the LORD Jesus Christ makes his glorious return.

Still stand by this.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Daniel 11
11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

If this is history, who was the prince of the covenant?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Who was the person of chapter 11, then? Who fulfilled all of these details?





You're thinking: this vision(s) in Daniel are exact punchlists, like you were assembling a Prius. You think you're going to find an exact event for each item.

I don't think any thinking person reading Dan 8-9 would think so. I don't think the original reader of 'cut off' would realize the exact way that was done, but they WOULD see the paradox: while that happens to Messiah, and the country is ruined, Messiah actually SUCCEEDED.

"The end will come like a flood." Wow that's just absolute precision, isn't it? But it is specific enough for Christ to use the same flood analogy in Mt 24B. That's good enough for me.

The material is already confined to the 490 period, even with the elastic ending. And since a major rebellion broke out due to the census, it had been going on for some time, as the passage says.

btw, where is your pounding on Wick for quoting Enoch about 28 generations after Messiah? "Outside the Bible" tsk, tsk.
 
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