The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[Interplanner]

RightD,
OK, but on this side of the fall do we have any other frame of reference when mean literal?

We can at least say that what Peter described was pretty familiar, while what the Rev says is not. Tet has a case here for the presence of the new creation, which, of course, Christ is. For wherever God and the Lamb are, there is the temple and Light of the new creation. Which we can say is present tense; I mean us, now, ever since the resurrection of Christ.

 

[surrender]

Surrender,
can you go on with more and say what you want to connect between the post and Heb 9 above?

Don't know what you mean.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are times when the sayings of Jesus involving 'gea' only mean the land of Israel.

Yes, but the context must demand it. And when we look at the "context" we can see that the Lord is not referring to the land of Israel:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene) "(Lk.21:25-26).​

The signs which will be seen in the sky happens AFTER the great tribulation is over (Mt.24:29). So here the words speaking about the things coming on the earth (oikoumene) refers to something which will happen after the great tribulation is over.

Well known preterist Gary DeMar has this to say about the meaning of the Greek word oikoumene:

"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).​

Of course a part of the world of which the the first century Christians were aware was the Roman Empire.

There was never a time after 70AD that a judgment came upon the Roman Empire. So the prophecies of Luke 21:25-26 have not yet been fulfilled.

Therefore, the verses which speak of a world wide judgment here prove that the word "generation" in this passage is not the correct translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

No first century "generation" saw a world wide judgment upon the earth.

 

[Interplanner]

Lk 21 is indeed seemless (between Judea and the whole world), and does not mention any allowance for delay. But Mk 13 and Mt 24 do. The 'right after' of Mt 24:29 is not there when Lk 21 goes from Judea to the whole world at v25.

On the other hand, Luke has more material than the others that a huge, terminal, catastrophic event will take place in Judea in that generation. All questions about generation are removed by the sheer force of 23:29 where the children of the adults in the audience will see the calamity. No one can question what 'this generation' means in that case. Luke's material is in 13, 14, 19, 21 and 23.

So, with his seemless connecting of the near distant events in Judea with the worldwide judgement, and not allowing for a delay, I find that I have to take Luke to be quite certain of the worldwide judgement in that generation. Thess material is that way. And other passages.

But Mk 13 and Mt 24 do allow for a delay and 2 Pet 3 explains why.

It is not a matter of the translation of one word. It is a matter of factoring in the delay which is mentioned or allowed three ways.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lk 21 is indeed seemless (between Judea and the whole world), and does not mention any allowance for delay. But Mk 13 and Mt 24 do. The 'right after' of Mt 24:29 is not there when Lk 21 goes from Judea to the whole world at v25.

What are you talking about. We can know that it will not be until after the great tribulation is overthatthe signs will be seen in the sky:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:21-29).​

Here is a prophecy which will be fulfilled after the signs are seen in the sky and the great tribulation is over:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev.6:12-16).​

Anyone in their right mind knows that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

 

[Zeke]

What are you talking about. We can know that it will not be until after the great tribulation is overthatthe signs will be seen in the sky:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:21-29).​

Here is a prophecy which will be fulfilled after the signs are seen in the sky and the great tribulation is over:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev.6:12-16).​

Anyone in their right mind knows that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

No one who takes this literal is in their right mind Jerry, the kingdom is within man not some future observational staged events by this worlds Governments, and their religious theology based on the literal interpretation that isn't historically valid.

Dipsy, Covenant theology, both are based on the historic truth that is a phantom in reality, they are depicting the two natures in man not two distinct people.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

it may have sounded like that to you but I never denied that the " earthly" kingdom is a type of the "heavenly" kingdom.

But you still have not proved that there will be any "type" of a kingdom that will be in effect at the end of the age.

I think you mean I haven't proven that there will be any type of kingdom in effect at 70AD, correct?

If David referred to Israel as the "Kingdom of the Lord" in I Chronicles 28:5 - doesn't mean there was a type of Kingdom at 70AD?

Didn't you suggest that the pharisees leadership role was a type of Kingdom of God? That was in effect in 70AD.

All you prove is that you remain in darknses about the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words in the Olivet discourse. I will go through this again. Here we see that the great tribulation will be over by the time when signs are seen in the sky:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).​

See that? it will not be until the great tribulation is over that the signs will be seen in the sky.

It is obvious that the verse I just quoted at Matthew 24:29 is referring to the great tribulation being over by the time the signs are seen in the sky. After all, previous to what the Lord Jesus said at Matthew 24:29 the Lord was speaking about the great tribulation at Matthew 24:21. But you want us to believe that his reference was not to the great tribulation!

I'd be interested to hear your explanation of Luke 21:11 "and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven."

These signs in heaven occur before the abomination of desolation. This verse in Luke fits somewhere within verses 6-8 of Matthew's account.

One of the signs in the sky before 70AD was a meteor that resembled a sword that hung over Jerusalem for one year.

Matthew and Luke's accounts seems to include talk of literal heavenly signs and figurative heavenly signs. As mentioned before, Jesus' mention of the sun being darkened and the stars falling from the sky is a reference to Isaiah 13 and Isaiah 34, which are fulfilled prophecies of judgement against nations. The sun and moon didn't literally stop giving light, nor did the stars literally fall from the sky when God's judgement came upon Babylon and Edom.

I have already answered this for you. If we look at a parallel passage to Luke 21:25-26 we can see exactly who the people will believe is going to judge them:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev.6:12-17).​

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment can understand that Revelation 6:12-17 is not just speaking about the unbelieving Jewish people!

Yes, I realize the Lord is behind the judging. When I asked "who is going to judge" I'm asking this from the vantage point of a future secular society who doesn't believe in God or the Bible. I find it much easier to believe that a 65AD Jewish society that sees signs in the sky, and is familiar with OT prophecy, will equate these things to the wrath of Yahweh. I find it harder to believe that a future God-hating, Bible illiterate society is going to see signs in the sky and say "hide us from the wrath of the Lamb."

I find it very difficult to read Rev 6:12-17 with strict literalism - so I don't think you can say that it's meaning or extent is overtly obvious.

"the stars of the sky fell to the earth", "the sky was split apart like a scroll" - literally impossible, but a near direct quote of Isaiah 34:4-5 which is a prophecy about the past destruction of Edom. "All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree."

"every mountain and island were moved out of their places" - while not literally impossible, the global quake that could accompany this feat would probably wipe out most of the world's population.

"the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains" - while not literally impossible that everybody alive on earth heads for the mountains for refuge - I find it highly improbable that the super rich of the earth will abandon their mansions and private bunkers to seek refuge amongst rocks. Not to mention the time it would take for everyone on the earth to make their way to the nearest mountain.

Of course since you have no place for the fulfillment of this prophecy in your eschatology you will go about attacking what is said there. You refuse to believe things which are written in the Scriptures even though they are right in front of your eyes.

All I see from you is the fact that you already have your mind up and you are willing to attack any part of the Divine Truth in order to cling to your false beliefs!

This from someone who continues to post the same standard answers over and over and over. Sounds like you have your mind up - not that it's a bad thing - but when your dialog resorts to attacking motives and hurling accusations because someone doesn't believe 100% the same as you, it doesn't seem like you are willing to put your beliefs to the test.

I'm still trying to understand the whole of Divine Truth - and please don't tell me you have a handle of it all. What I do know is that ultra-literalism is not always the best interpretative method, especially when it comes to apocalyptic prophecy.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Have you noticed that Jesus did not start preaching that until after He had performed the three Messianic Miracles (The Healing of a Jewish Leper, The Exorcism of a Mute Demon, The Healing of a Man Born Blind)?

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the big difference in Jesus' teaching came after he tried to declare himself the Messiah by performing these specific miracles?

Are you suggesting that it was only after he was not accepted as the Messiah that it was then necessary that he "suffer many things and be rejected"?

Interestingly, directly before this quote in Mark, Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

When Jesus departed the Earth, it was to travel to a far place where He would receive His kingdom. Luke 19:12

He is currently sitting at the right hand of God, waiting until God makes His enemies His footstool. Hebrews 1:13

Jesus is officially given the kingdom to rule when the seventh trump is blown. Revelation 12:10

Then He returns to Earth to rule the Gentiles with a rod of iron. Revelation 19:15

This lasts for 1,000 years. Revelation 20:4

During that time, the faithful believers will be given rule over cities. Luke 19:17

At the end of the 1,000 years, at the great white throne, death and hell are destroyed. Revelation 20:14

That is when the last enemy, death, is destroyed. 1 Corinthians 15:26

Once that is done, Jesus delivers the kingdom back to God the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24

Since that is the order of events, I did not misspeak when I said that Jesus will return to Earth when God the Father gives Him rule over the kingdom.

You imply that after the enemies of God are made a footstool, then Jesus will be given the Kingdom to rule. But, I Cor 15 describes Christ's Kingdom reign as the time during which his enemies are made his footstool. "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

It is after the enemies are under His feet that Jesus ceases reigning over the Kingdom - not starts reigning!

"And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him."

 

[Interplanner]

Well done, Aaron.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the big difference in Jesus' teaching came after he tried to declare himself the Messiah by performing these specific miracles?

Are you suggesting that it was only after he was not accepted as the Messiah that it was then necessary that he "suffer many things and be rejected"?

The Messiah was to suffer many things, even if He was accepted as Messiah.
The rejection of Messiah was a byproduct of the rejection of God.

Interestingly, directly before this quote in Mark, Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Yes, the leadership of the Jews in Judaea were given the opportunity to declare that, but refused.

 

[Interplanner]

Jesus didn't want to be called a messiah because of the popular current notions of someone who would lead a freedom fight or revolt.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus didn't want to be called a messiah because of the popular current notions of someone who would lead a freedom fight or revolt.

You need to read the Bible.

John 4:25-26 KJV
[SIZE=+0]25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. [/SIZE]​

 

[Danoh]

John 9:

34. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36. He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37. And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm still trying to understand the whole of Divine Truth - and please don't tell me you have a handle of it all. What I do know is that ultra-literalism is not always the best interpretative method, especially when it comes to apocalyptic prophecy.

Of course you must make the following words apply to just apocalyptic language because everyone knows that nothing like that happened in 70AD:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).​

Of course if things will actually appear that way after the great tribulation is over then preterism is proven to be false. So the preterists have no other choice to say that this is nothing but apocalyptic language.

But it is obvious that the following people are not reacting to apocalyptic language but instead to actual events:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken" (Lk.21:25-26).​

If we are to believe the preterists then we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that here we see people reacting in this way to nothing but apocalyptic language!

Another thing which is totally illogical with the preterists is the way that they take everything prior to Matthew 24:29 in a literal fashion and then all of a sudden the words of Jesus about the signs in the sky cannot be taken literally.

And I still have yet to hear a sane explanation from any preterist explaining when the following prophecy took place:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31,34).​

Paul certainly believed that this prophecy was to be understood literally, as witnessed by his following words:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

When in the past did all those of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah have their sins forgiven? And when in the past did the Deliverer come out of Sion and turn all ungodliness from Jacob?

Surely you must have an answer to this. What is your answer?

And while you are at it please tell us when the following prophecy was fulfilled:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).​

Why should we not believe that this verse is not to be taken literally. After all, earlier we read:

"On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).​

When were all of these prophecies fulfilled?

I think you mean I haven't proven that there will be any type of kingdom in effect at 70AD, correct?

If David referred to Israel as the "Kingdom of the Lord" in I Chronicles 28:5 - doesn't mean there was a type of Kingdom at 70AD?

That is speaking of the kingdom which the Apostles asked was going to be restored to Israel at Acts 1:6. It wasn't restored to Israel as late as Acts 1. So when do you say that it was restored?

Of course you must invent a kingdom which was strictly in regard to Israel or else you must admit that the following prophecy has not yet been fulfilled:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world."

But according to your ideas the field is the world of the Jews and nothing more. Al you are doing is perverting the words of the Lord Jesus in order to try to make them match the teaching of the preterists.

 

[Interplanner]

re Jer 31's new covenant.
Jerry, we have to go with NT interp. We have no choice. 2 Cor 3-5 says it is here and working.

re "saved" in Rom 11's quote of Isaiah. Huge misunderstanding. It means to have the debt of sin removed. Everything Isaiah 59 and 27 mention there is current and working: the Redeemer came
the new covenant is in effect
the debt of sin is taken away by faith in the Redeemer.

It is not future to Paul, and is not about a restored Israel. only the true Israel (those counted as 'sperma' not the 'tekna') are the whole Israel that is (Isaianically) saved--the debt of their sin is taken away.

 

[Right Divider]

re Jer 31's new covenant.
Jerry, we have to go with NT interp. We have no choice. 2 Cor 3-5 says it is here and working.

re "saved" in Rom 11's quote of Isaiah. Huge misunderstanding. It means to have the debt of sin removed. Everything Isaiah 59 and 27 mention there is current and working: the Redeemer came
the new covenant is in effect
the debt of sin is taken away by faith in the Redeemer.

It is not future to Paul, and is not about a restored Israel. only the true Israel (those counted as 'sperma' not the 'tekna') are the whole Israel that is (Isaianically) saved--the debt of their sin is taken away.

You use a lot of mumbo jumbo. This "NT Interp" is YOUR interp.

Paul NEVER teaches Gentiles that they are under a covenant, ANY covenant.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You use a lot of mumbo jumbo. This "NT Interp" is YOUR interp.

Paul NEVER teaches Gentiles that they are under a covenant, ANY covenant.

If Gentiles are still strangers from the covenants of promise, then Gentiles still have no hope and are without God in the world, right?

Ephesians 2:11-13 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

 

[Interplanner]

RightD,
in a way you are right about the Gentiles and the new covenant, because the other part of the new covenant is Christ. It was God and christ. Those who believe on Christ in are in him, and are likewise the Seed of Abraham. Not in themselves but in Him.

'sperma' and 'tekna' are not M-J, they are NT Greek.

2 Cor 3-5 is the most complete treatment of the current new covenant. I didn't interp anything, I just noticed that JerryS has never mentioned 2 Cor 3-5 in a whole week of talking about what he thinks is a future situation.

 

[Right Divider]

If Gentiles are still strangers from the covenants of promise, then Gentiles still have no hope and are without God in the world, right?

Ephesians 2:11-13 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

If you would CONTINUE reading the passagbe, you would get the right answer.

Eph 2:14-17
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
​

BOTH the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision are made ONE NEW MAN.

This is NOT Gentiles being joined to Israel, but is ONE NEW MAN.