The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

The Messiah was to suffer many things, even if He was accepted as Messiah.
The rejection of Messiah was a byproduct of the rejection of God.

What would he have suffered if we was rejected as the Messiah and began to rule as King over Israel?

Isaiah 53:3 makes it clear that Jesus would be "despised and forsaken of men...despised and we did not esteem him."

And Psalm 22 "a reproach of men, and despised by the people."

This doesn't happen if Jesus is accepted by Israel.

I think this is a powerful question that is being largely ignored by the debaters here.


If Jesus' knew he would be rejected, how can he say that the Kingdom of God was at hand? How could he say the time was fulfilled for the Kingdom to come?
 
Of course you must make the following words apply to just apocalyptic language because everyone knows that nothing like that happened in 70AD:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).​

Of course if things will actually appear that way after the great tribulation is over then preterism is proven to be false. So the preterists have no other choice to say that this is nothing but apocalyptic language.

This would be an irrational adherence to a paradigm IF there wasn't any precedence for those exact same words being used in a symbolic apocalyptic way. Since there ARE examples of this language in the OT - it is irrational to ignore the examples and insist that they must be understood literally. The question is how the Jews would have listened to this wording. We know of a time where Jesus quoted lines from an OT passage with no additional commentary in order to point his hearers back to OT prophecy (Matt. 27:46). The Jews knew their Scriptures and would have known what Jesus was referring to.

But it is obvious that the following people are not reacting to apocalyptic language but instead to actual events:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken" (Lk.21:25-26).​

Like I said, the various accounts of the olivet discourse likely contain both literal heavenly signs and figurative language of heavenly signs. Some they would see, some they would not.

Again, do you see the mention of signs from heaven in Luke 21:11 before the tribulation?

As a side note, in looking again at the Luke passage you mentioned, it literally says the people are perplexed at the roaring of the sea and the waves. It doesn't say they are perplexed by the previously mentioned signs in the sky.

Interestingly, Luke says the thing that is going to come upon the world is that "the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

This phrase is typically used of spiritual forces - of rulers in the spiritual realm. (Isaiah 24:21, Eph 3:10).

Certainly if Luke is referring to the shaking of spiritual forces, this will not be visible on earth.

Another thing which is totally illogical with the preterists is the way that they take everything prior to Matthew 24:29 in a literal fashion and then all of a sudden the words of Jesus about the signs in the sky cannot be taken literally.

Again it is only illogical if there wasn't any precedence in the Bible. Read Isaiah 13. You will see phrases that appear to be very literal descriptions right next to phrases that are definitely figurative. One sign that might tip the hat to when Jesus starts talking figuratively is when he gives a direct quote from an OT passage where the same language is used figuratively. This isn't illogical Bible interpretation.
 
And I still have yet to hear a sane explanation from any preterist explaining when the following prophecy took place:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31,34).​

Given the provisions for Gentiles to become full Israelites - and given the warnings that those who did not follow the provisions of the covenant could be cut off from Israel (Gen 17:14) - isn't it hypothetically possible that the Jeremiah prophecy could have been promised to a nation composed of 50% Gentile origin and 50% Jewish origin? My point is that physical relationship to the fathers was not a key component in who this prophecy was given to.

Since we should interpret the NT in light of the OT - we must consider Paul's statement that "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants..."

All who are truly Abraham's descendants in the eyes of God have had their sins forgiven.

Jesus words in Matthew 26:28 show that Jesus was initiating the New Covenant. "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

How does any Christian have forgiveness of sins apart from the blood of the covenant?

Why does Paul give the Corinthian church instructions on how to properly take part in the cup of the new covenant if they have no part in the new covenant?

Isn't Hebrews 8:6 proof that the New Covenant has been enacted? "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises."

If that doesn't mean it has been enacted, what does it mean?

Paul certainly believed that this prophecy was to be understood literally, as witnessed by his following words:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

When in the past did all those of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah have their sins forgiven? And when in the past did the Deliverer come out of Sion and turn all ungodliness from Jacob?

Surely you must have an answer to this. What is your answer?

Before we get to Romans 11, Paul says in Romans 9:27 (quoting Isaiah) that it is the remnant that will be saved. (vs. 27).

And in Romans 10:12,13, it says "whoever will call upon the Lord will be saved", "for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek."

This being "saved" is not just for the house of Jacob - it is for "whoever".

Paul says "and in this way all Israel will be saved.

In what way is "all Israel" saved? By the saving of unhardened remnant Israel and the saving of Gentiles.

Galatians 4:22-31 makes it very clear that Sarah is a representation of the New Covenant, and her children - represented by Isaac - belong to the New Covenant. Paul says the Gentile Galatian church were in Isaac - and therefore in Sarah - and therefore in the New Covenant. At the same time, he says that those who try to follow the Law and not Christ are slaves of the Old Covenant and will not be heirs of the New.

Let's take for a moment your understanding of Romans 11:26. This is referring to a future time when Jesus comes back after 2/3rds of the Jewish people are killed in the great tribulation - and this remaining 1/3rd will be saved. That's not quite "all the house of Israel". That in itself is only a remnant.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Isaiah 53:3 makes it clear that Jesus would be "despised and forsaken of men...despised and we did not esteem him."

And Psalm 22 "a reproach of men, and despised by the people."

This doesn't happen if Jesus is accepted by Israel.

I think this is a powerful question that is being largely ignored by the debaters here.
You are mistaken, this would have happened even if Jesus was accepted by Israel:

Isaiah 53:12
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.​

Remember, Jesus laid down His own life.

If Jesus' knew he would be rejected, how can he say that the Kingdom of God was at hand? How could he say the time was fulfilled for the Kingdom to come?
The people of Nineveh repented at the words of Jonah, and that generation was spared.


Luke 11:32
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.​

If the generation listening to Jesus had repented, then the kingdom would have been established 1900 years ago.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
It was a very different kind of kingdom. It was not of this world; its authority base, its dynamic, its primary movement, was not a legal entity, but the compelling power of what Christ did for us.

People wanted to force him to be a king as they knew it and he rejected that, Jn 6. They in turn rejected him partly for that reason, spurred on by the zealots who wanted a militarily organized leader etc.
 

Right Divider

Body part
It was a very different kind of kingdom. It was not of this world; its authority base, its dynamic, its primary movement, was not a legal entity, but the compelling power of what Christ did for us.

People wanted to force him to be a king as they knew it and he rejected that, Jn 6. They in turn rejected him partly for that reason, spurred on by the zealots who wanted a militarily organized leader etc.
An IRON ROD does NOT sound like the compelling power (spiritual) of what Christ did for us.

The VAST majority of the THIS world do not care one tiny bit about what Christ did for us.
Psa 2:1-12 KJV Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? (2) The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, (3) Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. (4) He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. (5) Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. (6) Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. (7) I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (8) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. (9) Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. (10) Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. (11) Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. (12) Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
That IRON ROD will NOT be about forgiveness of sin.

See also: The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Given the provisions for Gentiles to become full Israelites - and given the warnings that those who did not follow the provisions of the covenant could be cut off from Israel (Gen 17:14) - isn't it hypothetically possible that the Jeremiah prophecy could have been promised to a nation composed of 50% Gentile origin and 50% Jewish origin? My point is that physical relationship to the fathers was not a key component in who this prophecy was given to.

So are you saying that the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has already been fulfilled?

All who are truly Abraham's descendants in the eyes of God have had their sins forgiven.

You ignore the content of this promise of the Lord here in "bold":

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

This says that the fathers of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah were the physical descendants of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob. There was never a time in the past when both the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Gentiles who had become full Israelites had their ALL had their sins forgiven. And you have no place in your eschatology for the fulfillment of these promises of the Lord at Jeremiah 31:31-34. In other words, your theology makes the LORD someone who makes promises and then does not fulfill those promises!

Jesus words in Matthew 26:28 show that Jesus was initiating the New Covenant. "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

Yes, He initiated the New Covenant but when it came time for Israel to fully enter into that covenant she failed. Here Peter told Israel what she must do to enter into the New Covenant:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

If Israel would have repented then she would have had all of her sins blotted out. But since she didn't repent then her sins were not blotted out. Are you willing to argue that she entered into the New Covenant despite the fact that she remained obstinate?

Why does Paul give the Corinthian church instructions on how to properly take part in the cup of the new covenant if they have no part in the new covenant?

"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come" (1 Cor.11:25-26; KJV).​

This speaks of a commemoration of the Lord Jesus' death spoken of in His Last Will and Testament, the gospel - "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Why in the world would you imagine that the New Covenant applied to the Body of Christ since it is only applied to the house of Israel and the house of Judah?

Isn't Hebrews 8:6 proof that the New Covenant has been enacted? "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises."

The Lord Jesus is the Mediator of a better testament:

"Therefore, He is the mediator of a new testament, so that those who are called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance, because a death has taken place for redemption from the transgressions committed under the first covenant" (Heb.9:15; KJV).​

Before we get to Romans 11, Paul says in Romans 9:27 (quoting Isaiah) that it is the remnant that will be saved. (vs. 27).

At that time it was a remnant which was being saved.

And in Romans 10:12,13, it says "whoever will call upon the Lord will be saved", "for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek."

So, what is your point. Nothing about that changes Paul's words that in the future "all of Israel will be changed."

Paul says "and in this way all Israel will be saved.

Here in bold is the "way" which all Israel will be saved:

"and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob" (Ro.11:26).

When in the past did the Deliverer come out of Sion and turn all ungodliness from Jacob?

Surely you must have an answer to this. What is your answer?

And while you are at it please tell us when the following prophecy was fulfilled:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).​

Why should we not believe that this verse is not to be taken literally. After all, earlier we read:

"On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).​

When were all of these prophecies fulfilled?

In what way is "all Israel" saved? By the saving of unhardened remnant Israel and the saving of Gentiles.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 tells us exactly how that salvation will happen. But of course you have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise there.

I'm still trying to understand the whole of Divine Truth - and please don't tell me you have a handle of it all. What I do know is that ultra-literalism is not always the best interpretative method, especially when it comes to apocalyptic prophecy.

Of course you must make the following words apply to just apocalyptic language because everyone knows that nothing like that happened in 70AD:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).​

Of course if things will actually appear that way after the great tribulation is over then preterism is proven to be false. So the preterists have no other choice to say that this is nothing but apocalyptic language.

But it is obvious that the following people are not reacting to apocalyptic language but instead to actual events:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken" (Lk.21:25-26).​

If we are to believe the preterists then we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that here we see people reacting in this way to nothing but apocalyptic language!

Another thing which is totally illogical with the preterists is the way that they take everything prior to Matthew 24:29 in a literal fashion and then all of a sudden the words of Jesus about the signs in the sky cannot be taken literally.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
JerryS,
re Israel's response to the new covenant. 3000 did. That may have been all who could have heard a speaker clearly in those days (there was no PA system...)

My point is the forgiveness was extended to who ever believed. Then, at some point, God decided the nation as such was not responding and gave them over to judgement.

The futurist is working off the wrong contingency at this point. God was not saving the offer for a future time. If they didn't (as a country) accept the mission of the Gospel then, he would punish them. And he did.

Shorter posts are better. 2-3 points at the most.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
re stars falling from heaven.
That's a bit figurative at best.

JerryS,
there is a way of doing Mt 24A vs B that goes like this: B could have happened right after A but it was up to God. He decided not. So it is meant to be ordinary language but is not part of what happened to Jerusalem in 70. It is ordinary language other than the stars falling, as I mentioned. And other than the fact that when Peter summarizes the last day, the earth is melted down, rather than the sun going dark...
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
To RightlyD
Ephesians 2:11 shifts from being dead in sin, to the unity of Jews and Gentiles in Christ. 2A is 1-10, 2B is after 11. It belongs with the first 13 verses of ch 3. Or 3A.

It's just for convenience. 2B-3A.

Any good translation of 1:1 will include the note that it was blank where the word Ephesians is written. Read any intro to Ephesians. It was circulated the widest.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The futurist is working off the wrong contingency at this point. God was not saving the offer for a future time. If they didn't (as a country) accept the mission of the Gospel then, he would punish them. And he did.

So according to your ideas the LORD made promises to those in the house of Israel and in the house of Judah and now those promises will never be fulfilled!

The God you worship might make promises and then refuse to fulfill them but the God I worship would never do such a thing.

"God is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes His mind. Does He speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill? " (Num.23:19).​
 

Right Divider

Body part
To RightlyD
Ephesians 2:11 shifts from being dead in sin, to the unity of Jews and Gentiles in Christ. 2A is 1-10, 2B is after 11. It belongs with the first 13 verses of ch 3. Or 3A.

It's just for convenience. 2B-3A.

Any good translation of 1:1 will include the note that it was blank where the word Ephesians is written. Read any intro to Ephesians. It was circulated the widest.
I don't see this magical divider of yours.

According the NASB translators, 3 early manuscripts don't have "at Ephesus". So let's throw it out for THREE manuscripts. Hardly scholarly if you ask me, but then again, "scholars" often mess things up. Just because a manuscript is thought to be "old" does not mean that it is more accurate to the original. Some old manuscripts were intentionally modified to support the beliefs of the modifiers.

I think that your prejudice has lead you to many false assumptions.
 

Danoh

New member
I don't see this magical divider of yours.

According the NASB translators, 3 early manuscripts don't have "at Ephesus". So let's throw it out for THREE manuscripts. Hardly scholarly if you ask me, but then again, "scholars" often mess things up. Just because a manuscript is thought to be "old" does not mean that it is more accurate to the original. Some old manuscripts were intentionally modified to support the beliefs of the modifiers.

I think that your prejudice has lead you to many false assumptions.

As intelligent, "Christian" college educated and well read as the guy is, all that, has left him rather stupid.

You now the type - they sit around "talking about the things of God," all the right catch phrases and all the rest.

But sit them down with an open Bible and they do not know where a great many things are.

This is their great stupidity - and some of them are really sharp and well educated people - made stupid by all that education they conclude means they know some thing.

Their kind often remind me of a Professor who one day subbed for one of our regular Professors. The guy comes in and proceeds to attempt to prove the exact opposite of what our regular Professor had been teaching.

Proved nothing but what an absolute fool all that learning had turned him into.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
RightD,
That's three of the primaries, enough to force a note in the NIV. It means many, many secondary copies are out there like that. The mss are the originals, not the secondary count. Do you know how text criticism works? (Aleph) B C D and p46 are the primaries. When they don't agree completely the better translations make a note.

Next you go on to the sheer number of copies (secondaries). When something gets copied excessively, and many of them have the blank, it means it was understood to be a "publication" more than a letter. Notice how it does not have the personal names and situations that Gal, Col, Phil, Thess, Tims have. Just check good commentaries and they have the background: the NIV commentary and NICNT.
 
You are mistaken, this would have happened even if Jesus was accepted by Israel:

Isaiah 53:12
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.​

Remember, Jesus laid down His own life.


The people of Nineveh repented at the words of Jonah, and that generation was spared.


Luke 11:32
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.​

If the generation listening to Jesus had repented, then the kingdom would have been established 1900 years ago.

Yes, if ALL the people repented then ALL the people would have been spared - but the Bible doesn't say their repentance was necessary for the Kingdom to come. Jesus said the time was fulfilled - meaning the stage was already set.

Yes, Jesus laid down his own life - meaning he wasn't crucified merely because the people demanded it. As God he could have called upon angels and forcibly resisted the evil men, but he chose to let himself be crucified.

Your point overlooks the fact that it was prophesied Jesus would be rejected by men - that the vehicle of his crucifixion was always going to be the rejection of men.

His rejection and crucifixion was the plan all along. I don't see any place for him laying down his life after being joyfully accepted as King over Israel.
 
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).​

Of course if things will actually appear that way after the great tribulation is over then preterism is proven to be false. So the preterists have no other choice to say that this is nothing but apocalyptic language.

But it is obvious that the following people are not reacting to apocalyptic language but instead to actual events:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken" (Lk.21:25-26).​

If we are to believe the preterists then we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that here we see people reacting in this way to nothing but apocalyptic language!

Another thing which is totally illogical with the preterists is the way that they take everything prior to Matthew 24:29 in a literal fashion and then all of a sudden the words of Jesus about the signs in the sky cannot be taken literally.

Maybe you missed my response to this in my last post. We are not throwing reason to the wind when we say certain phrases are apocalyptic language when those exact same phrases are used in the OT as apocalyptic language.

This is not unreasonable. It is unreasonable to deny or ignore their historic usage as apocalyptic language and insist on literal fulfillment.

I will respond to your other points later - which will involve a lot of repeating what I already said.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Maybe you missed my response to this in my last post. We are not throwing reason to the wind when we say certain phrases are apocalyptic language when those exact same phrases are used in the OT as apocalyptic language.

The preterists take every thing in a literal sense from the beginning of the 24th chapter of Matthew until Matthew 24:28. And then all of a sudden when a literal rendering of the next verse destroys their theology then they just say that it refers to apocalyptic language.

Then the preterists offer no explanation as to why this verse should not be taken literally even though they themselves took the previous twenty eight verses literally:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).​

According to this verse this so-called apocalyptic language is not even in regard to the tribulation because the so-called apocalyptic language is not even seen until the tribulation is already over.

You overlook the fact that when apocalyptic language is employed it is used to describe an apocalypse which remains in the future.

It would make no sense to use apocalyptic language in regard to an apocalypse which has already occurred.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Maybe you missed my response to this in my last post. We are not throwing reason to the wind when we say certain phrases are apocalyptic language when those exact same phrases are used in the OT as apocalyptic language.

This is not unreasonable. It is unreasonable to deny or ignore their historic usage as apocalyptic language and insist on literal fulfillment.

I will respond to your other points later - which will involve a lot of repeating what I already said.

Aaron,

Just wanted you to know;
This is an excellent and reasonable response to a lot of silliness.
It will not be received well by those who have already made up their minds.

Jerry's mind is closed which is why he is on ignore.
Will be watching from the wings!!

George
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
So according to your ideas the LORD made promises to those in the house of Israel and in the house of Judah and now those promises will never be fulfilled!

The God you worship might make promises and then refuse to fulfill them but the God I worship would never do such a thing.

"God is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes His mind. Does He speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill? " (Num.23:19).​

Yer problem and yer not alone, is that you dont understand what he spoke.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
It is interesting that the first time the words sun, moon and stars are used in conjunction, in the Bible, are in Joseph's dream.

"And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying."

Used together, in this way, it came to be known, to the ancients, as synonymous for great nations, specifically the Jewish nation.

Of course, this is only interesting to those who compare scripture with scripture.
 
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