The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[Interplanner]

Danoh,
Your last line mixes everything up. 2 Pet 3 is not the issue of Acts 3. We don't know what the issue of 2 Pet 3 is until we decide what 'coming' the skeptics were being skeptical about, and what was the audience of 2 Pet 3, period.

How would the people who went through the Gospel events doubt a world-finalizing coming for that reason? They would doubt a finalizing coming because (as they say) they doubt that Christ and God would end all things shortly. Everything will go on as it has since creation. That is not a doubt of the Gospel events.

The things you think you are tying down are dangling more elastically than when you began the post. Try again.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And this whole time, it sounded like you were bashing me for suggesting that Israel was a type of Kingdom of God - as specifically mentioned in I Chronicles 28:5.

it may have sounded like that to you but I never denied that the " earthly" kingdom is a type of the "heavenly" kingdom.

But you still have not proved that there will be any "type" of a kingdom that will be in effect at the end of the age.

It is not clear that this Luke quote is something that will happen after the tribulation is over.

All you prove is that you remain in darknses about the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words in the Olivet discourse. I will go through this again. Here we see that the great tribulation will be over by the time when signs are seen in the sky:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).​

See that? it will not be until the great tribulation is over that the signs will be seen in the sky.

But you say:

Luke first mentions signs in the sky, earthquakes, and troubles in the nations in vs. 10 - which is before the main tribulation events. In vs. 35, Jesus doesn't say "and then there will be..." he says "and there will be". Meaning, he could be referring back to the signs he previously mentioned to elaborate on them.

It is obvious that the verse I just quoted at Matthew 24:29 is referring to the great tribulation being over by the time the signs are seen in the sky. After all, previous to what the Lord Jesus said at Matthew 24:29 the Lord was speaking about the great tribulation at Matthew 24:21. But you want us to believe that his reference was not to the great tribulation!

All you prove is the fact that you are willing to muddy up the water in an attempt to deny the obvious.

So men (either past or future) see signs and are afraid of a judgement that is coming upon the whole inhabited earth. One question I would ask is why they thought there was a judgement coming on the earth because they saw signs in the sky. Especially, since as you said, most of the earth will be going about their regular lives, getting married, etc. while the tribulation is going on in Israel. I don't know why signs in the sky and roaring waves would make people think that judgment was about to come. Judgement from who?

I have already answered this for you. If we look at a parallel passage to Luke 21:25-26 we can see exactly who the people will believe is going to judge them:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev.6:12-17).​

Of course since you have no place for the fulfillment of this prophecy in your eschatology you will go about attacking what is said there. You refuse to believe things which are written in the Scriptures even though they are right in front of your eyes.

My explanation: God's wrath was upon the unbelieving Jewish people. They were living throughout the Roman empire - and they all felt this wrath - especially through the destruction of their temple.

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment can understand that Revelation 6:12-17 is not just speaking about the unbelieving Jewish people!

All I see from you is the fact that you already have your mind up and you are willing to attack any part of the Divine Truth in order to cling to your false beliefs!

 

[Interplanner]

Tetelestai re last days,
That's a good post, but a different issue from the (apparent) ordinary meaning of NHNE as objects taking the place of this one--this same one that was flooded and earlier created from an already existing watery mass. All of which are objects separate from Christ, and which help ground the Bible in space and time.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Peter's epistle was written probably about 10 years before 70AD.

Peter did in fact refer to the "last days" as a future event when he wrote his epistle.

Many people use the following verse from Peter's epistle to try and prove preterism wrong.

Here is what Peter said:

(2 Peter 3:3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

However, let's look at what Jude said a few years later:

(Jude 1:18-19) They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

As we see, Jude points out that the scoffers who Peter said would appear in "the last days" lived when Jude wrote his epistle shortly before 70AD

What, no mention of Darby? What's wrong with you today?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JerryS,
My MCS is from Regent College Vancouver, with 1 of those years in NT Greek at that level. I know of no text notes in Metzger's ABS text about what you are talking about. Ie, no particles of contingency.

I have no idea about what you are saying. My last reply to you was in regard to what you said here so would you address mt remarks about this?

1, Rom 11 is prodding not prediction.

It teaches us something valuable.

In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away, a nation that was made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

"God forbid."​

But preterism has no place in their eschatology for a time when the nation of Israel will once again be the Lord's special people:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

That will happen when the house of Israel and the house of Judah will finally be a blessing to the world:

"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:13,23).​

Of course the preterist have no place for the fulfillment of this prophecy so they must do their best to spiritualize it away!

 

[Interplanner]

JerryS,
you think there is a contingency particle (if) in sayings about this generation will not pass until...

There is not.

 

[Interplanner]

JerryS,
it is spiritual. Spiritual is not the scum word you think. It means maturity as in Gal 4's child-trainer imagery (minority vs maturity). Eph 1 says the blessing of forgiveness of sins is very spiritual, and says that all who believe, Jew or gentile, share in the promise to Israel (which was actually to all the world anyway, but Judaism needed the reminder) in 3:5-6. All the technical terms of belonging to Israel and to the covenant to it are there in 2B-3A. Between 15-20 of them. They are all there. Why Paul would possibly have missed any of them for some separate program after that list is impossible to digest.

 

[Interplanner]

Danoh,
could you square away what date you think 2 Peter was written?

Again, I find it hard to see a Judaistic setting (the scoffers) in ch 3. The answers given have much more to do with secular--although primitive--science types of people. I know the term 'stoicheia' is there (cp Gal 4 and Col 2) but with the context of an ancient primordial situation (watery earth), then creation (Gen 1:3+), then the flood, I don't know why these would come up to skeptics who are in Judaism.

The Jewish war broke open in 66 AD although there were smouldering revolts since Judas the Galilean in 6 AD. Several of these are mentioned in Acts. 2 Pet 3 does not seem to be written during, or even before, but just far enough after for skeptics to belittle what Mt24 had said about 'right after.' Yet apparently he died in 64.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

"English spelling was never one of my strong points....English grammer...."-Tettie the Clownie

Reckon he went to Grant Ave. Grammer School, with the Beav?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JerryS,
you think there is a contingency particle (if) in sayings about this generation will not pass until...

There is not.

I never said such a thing. Instead, I said that the word "generation" is not the correct translation in the Olivet Discourse:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

No first century "generation" saw a world wide judgment upon the earth.

Eph 1 says the blessing of forgiveness of sins is very spiritual, and says that all who believe, Jew or gentile, share in the promise to Israel.

Where do we read that in the first chapter of Ephesians?

1, Rom 11 is prodding not prediction.

It teaches us something valuable.

In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away, a nation that was made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

"God forbid."​

But preterism has no place in their eschatology for a time when the nation of Israel will once again be the Lord's special people:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

That will happen when the house of Israel and the house of Judah will finally be a blessing to the world:

"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:13,23).​

Of course the preterist have no place for the fulfillment of this prophecy so they must do their best to spiritualize it away!

 

[Interplanner]

Sorry, JerryS
I don't see the post that had the thumbnails of the interlinear NT. It was trying to show that there was a contingent particle in these sayings, an "if."

But on the generation, go through all the places that use this expression; it has to be that generation. Most poignant is Lk 23 because the adults are told to be prepared for what their kids will see happen--you who will nurse children then.

There are times when the sayings of Jesus involving 'gea' only mean the land of Israel. We can't forget that much of the language of Mt 24 is built on Mt 10, which was all about Israel.

At the same time, there were several things going on even in the Roman setting that could have imploded. There was an alliance east of Israel that wished to break the continuity of Roman control of the Mediterranean. There was nearly civil war, breaking Rome into two parts, etc. There was a famine earlier "in the whole earth" which mean the known earth; Acts 15.

We have to be as loose as Peter was on the day of Pentecost: he referred to all those things happening, but they didn't in the strictest sense. Yet it was a dramatic day--wind, tongues of fire, etc. There are things that happened in the final days of Jerusalem that weren't exactly spelled out either, but were definitely traumatic. There was some kind of sword like sign over the city and there was a roar which Josephus heard which all witnesses said was not humanly made...

 

[Right Divider]

Sorry, JerryS
I don't see the post that had the thumbnails of the interlinear NT. It was trying to show that there was a contingent particle in these sayings, an "if."

But on the generation, go through all the places that use this expression; it has to be that generation. Most poignant is Lk 23 because the adults are told to be prepared for what their kids will see happen--you who will nurse children then.

There are times when the sayings of Jesus involving 'gea' only mean the land of Israel. We can't forget that much of the language of Mt 24 is built on Mt 10, which was all about Israel.

At the same time, there were several things going on even in the Roman setting that could have imploded. There was an alliance east of Israel that wished to break the continuity of Roman control of the Mediterranean. There was nearly civil war, breaking Rome into two parts, etc. There was a famine earlier "in the whole earth" which mean the known earth; Acts 15.

We have to be as loose as Peter was on the day of Pentecost: he referred to all those things happening, but they didn't in the strictest sense. Yet it was a dramatic day--wind, tongues of fire, etc. There are things that happened in the final days of Jerusalem that weren't exactly spelled out either, but were definitely traumatic. There was some kind of sword like sign over the city and there was a roar which Josephus heard which all witnesses said was not humanly made...

Well.... how can we possibly disagree with Joe and the gang?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are times when the sayings of Jesus involving 'gea' only mean the land of Israel.

Yes, but the context must demand it. And when we look at the "context" we can see that the Lord is not referring to the land of Israel:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene) "(Lk.21:25-26).​

The signs which will be seen in the sky happens AFTER the great tribulation is over (Mt.24:29). So here the words speaking about the things coming on the earth (oikoumene) refers to something which will happen after the great tribulation is over.

Well known preterist Gary DeMar has this to say about the meaning of the Greek word oikoumene:

"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).​

Of course a part of the world of which the the first century Christians were aware was the Roman Empire.

There was never a time after 70AD that a judgment came upon the Roman Empire. So the prophecies of Luke 21:25-26 have not yet been fulfilled.

Therefore, the verses which speak of a world wide judgment here prove that the word "generation" in this passage is not the correct translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

No first century "generation" saw a world wide judgment upon the earth.

 

[surrender]

Peter's epistle was written probably about 10 years before 70AD.

Peter did in fact refer to the "last days" as a future event when he wrote his epistle.

Many people use the following verse from Peter's epistle to try and prove preterism wrong.

Here is what Peter said:

(2 Peter 3:3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

However, let's look at what Jude said a few years later:

(Jude 1:18-19) They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

As we see, Jude points out that the scoffers who Peter said would appear in "the last days" lived when Jude wrote his epistle shortly before 70AD

Hmm... good point! (still reading this thread when I have time!) :-D

 

[surrender]

The Greek word for trodden down in the verse above is "pateo" it means to trample under foot.

The same word is found in Rev 11:2

(Rev 11:2 KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Notice after "tread under foot" (pateo) it says for 42 months, which is 3.5 years.

So, as we see the times of the Gentiles ended in 70AD. The Great Tribulation lasted from 66AD to 70AD (3.5 years)

70AD also marked the end of the old heavens and earth, and the beginning of the new heavens and new earth.

Hebrews 8
13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Nope, you're wrong.

(Rev 11:2) But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

The trampling did not begin until 70 CE.

The new heaven and new earth is not literal. The new heaven and new earth is the new covenant. The old heaven and old earth is the old covenant.

The new heaven and new earth are literal and will be established after the White Throne judgment.

Yes I know. That's why when I die, I will be instantly in the presence of the Lord in the kingdom with a glorified body.

No, you won't.

The kingdom will not arrive until Jesus arrives, you will not receive a glorified body until Jesus returns, until then you will rot in sheol the same as any other believer or unbeliever.

 

[Interplanner]

Surrender,
can you go on with more and say what you want to connect between the post and Heb 9 above?

 

[Interplanner]

genuineo,
there is no time outside of earth for things to rot...

The siege of Jerusalem began with deployments of troops from the Antonia tower overlooking the temple as soon as the riot in Caesaria began, which was about the temple treasury money being used for other expenses by Rome. That was in 66. There was an interruption of several months when the leadership of Rome was in civil strife, and many Christians left at that time. But basically, you could say it was seized (albeit unsuccessfully in the early stages) from 66 on.

 

[Interplanner]

GenuineO,
how can the NHNE be literal when the light is the Lamb... Rev 20, 21. And there is no temple because the Lamb and God are the temple...

Literal would surely mean the usual physical properties as we now know them, right. There is more of a case in 2 Pet 3; however, there is nothing happening in Israel in that passage, no millenium, etc, just the judgement and the NHNE for believers.

 

[Right Divider]

GenuineO,
how can the NHNE be literal when the light is the Lamb... Rev 20, 21. And there is no temple because the Lamb and God are the temple...

Literal would surely mean the usual physical properties as we now know them, right. There is more of a case in 2 Pet 3; however, there is nothing happening in Israel in that passage, no millenium, etc, just the judgement and the NHNE for believers.

So you get to put stipulations on what "literal" means? There is NO reason that a LITERAL NHNE have to have the "usual physical properties as we now now them", that is just something that you made up.

The currently creation is under a CURSE, so that even the current conditions that we see are NOT the same has how they started out.

Gen 3:17-19 KJV And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; (18) Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; (19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
​