Aaron the Tall
Member
So when the Pharisees had the Kingdom of God - that just meant that they had leadership positions in Israel?
So, you do think the Kingdom of God was something that existed on earth specific to Israel?....
The Preterists and Matthew 24:34
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
So when the Pharisees had the Kingdom of God - that just meant that they had leadership positions in Israel?
So, you do think the Kingdom of God was something that existed on earth specific to Israel?....
Aaron the Tall
Member
I think Jerry has a similar answer. Here's the problem I see with that. It was prophesied that Jesus would be rejected. In fact, it was necessary that Jesus be rejected and crucified. So, from the first moment Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God was at hand, he knew he would be rejected. Very early on he told his disciples he would be killed.
If he knew he would be largely rejected - and that this was supposedly result in the Kingdom being unable to come - how is it that he could still say the Kingdom of God was at hand?
Nimrod
Member
You are stating God did not see this before the creation of the world.
Any postponement theory is saying God is unable to know 100% sure things will happen at the specified time.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes!
At one time it existed on the earth and it was specific to Israel, as witnessed by the Apostle's question found at Acts 1:6.
Now it is time for you to answer a couple of questions for me. You do know that the following events foretold in the OT will happen after the great tribulation is over?:
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene)" (Lk.21:25-26).
Well known preterist author Gary DeMar said that "When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).
Of course when the first century Christians thought of what they knew of their world they certainly believed that the Roman Empire was a part of it.
What evidence can you give that a judgment came upon the Roman Empire after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD?
In the same exact sense that we here present to you that Paul's gospel is being preached while its time for doing so remains "at hand," Rom. 13:12.
We do so knowing full well that you and yours will reject it.
And you have, and have continued to.
Nevertheless, ours is to "make all men see what is the fellowship of the Mystery" Eph. 3:9.
That you either look into it and "therefore believe," Acts 17: 11-12; 1 Thess. 2:13; or reject it for a witness against you in your strain of Preterism, 2 Timothy 2:18.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You fail to understand the LORD lives in eternity and there He is living in the ever present now. So He sees history, from beginning to end, with one glance.
William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:
"Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another prominent Calvinist author, Loraine Boettner:
"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).
What does all of this tell us? It tells us that when we consider the things of God, Who exists in the eternal state, we cannot take the "time element" literally in any verse that speak of God doing anything in time. John Wesley had the same understanding of the eternal state that I have been discussing:
"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not'...Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).
Your whole argument is based on the idea that the LORD had foreknowledge and therefore He was bound by time.
Instead, He sees everything in one glance and therefore He is not bound by time so His knowledge was not based on any "foreknowledge."
Look, I know well you and your "books learned" yours are used to what you refer to as "straight answers.
That's where you put out a straight answer not based in anything but your tradition that you then go back and forth; each putting forth your own reasoning against the other's.
Sorry, but that is not our school. That is yours. The reasoning of men reasoning about this and that against another's reasoning.
You want my answer - here it is. All you need do is search - not your endless books daily - but the Scriptures. And then, exercise plain old common sense and believe the Scriptures over your endless books.
To answer your question based on the Scripture - "the children of the kingdom" are one of these two groups being addressed by one of their own "brethren" in the following. It depends on their volition, on their end, and God's oath in Himself to their fathers on His end.
Acts 3:
17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away
every one of you from his iniquities.
This is real simple...
"Are you with the program here, or are you against it; and thus, against yourselves" is what the Spirit is challenging all of them to.
Those with the program, remain the children of the kingdom, as Jacob was. Those who reject it, lose their access to it, as Esau had by his own volition.
That, towards Israel's prophesied destiny as an agency of God over the Earth - the issue of election unto service, Isaiah 41:8, Isaiah 44:1-2.
That is; as His witness among the Gentiles, Isaiah 43:10, thus, the actual sense of Acts 1: 7-8.
Matthew 8:
11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
If that still does not meet what your endless books parrot, well, you can't be helped; your books take the priority over the Scripture no matter how much you and yours swear up and down the street otherwise.
What say you as to who these children supposedly are? Or are you just baiting?
Time you put up, or shut up, Aaron.
And while you're at it; smile; if you have believed Romans 5:8; you're in the fellowship of the mystery no matter how clueless you continue to choose to remain about it.
To that much, I say a hearty "Amen!"
I'd add "Come on in; the water's fine," but there is only "one baptism" today, and its not water, lol
Right Divider
Body part
The "postponement" is in HUMAN terms. God knows the end from the beginning. Nothing can surprise Him.
genuineoriginal
New member
Are you sure of that?
The Rabbis struggled with seemingly contradictory passages about the coming of the Messiah.
_____
Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 98a
R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua b. Levi pointed out a contradiction. it is written, in its time [will the Messiah come], whilst it is also written, I [the Lord] will hasten it!33 — if they are worthy, I will hasten it: if not, [he will come] at the due time. R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ***!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ***. King Shapur said to Samuel, 'Ye maintain that the Messiah will come upon an ***: I will rather send him a white horse of mine.'37 He replied, 'Have you a hundred-hued steed?'38
_____
Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 98a
R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua b. Levi pointed out a contradiction. it is written, in its time [will the Messiah come], whilst it is also written, I [the Lord] will hasten it!33 — if they are worthy, I will hasten it: if not, [he will come] at the due time. R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ***!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ***. King Shapur said to Samuel, 'Ye maintain that the Messiah will come upon an ***: I will rather send him a white horse of mine.'37 He replied, 'Have you a hundred-hued steed?'38
_____
The Rabbis believed that the appearance of the Messiah was conditional on whether the children of Israel would be worthy when the Messiah came.
They were wrong in that, we know now that the Messiah came first on an *** and will come on the clouds of heaven afterwards.
They almost had the right idea. If they were worthy then the kingdom would have been established in their generation, but if they were unworthy (unrepentant) then the kingdom would be withheld from that generation and established in a future generation.
The death of Messiah had to happen, even if the Jews were repentant and accepted Jesus as the Messiah.
If the Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah, His death would not have come at the insistance of the Jews but over their objections, the same way it came over the objections of Peter.
Jesus laid down His own life as proof to the Father that He was obedient even unto death on the cross. This was the trial that Jesus had to go through in order to receive rule over the kingdom. Jesus did not receive this rule before the cross, but Jesus will return when the Father turns over the rule to Him.
genuineoriginal
New member
Have you ever read the Bible?
Interplanner
Well-known member
GenuineO,
at the end of time, Jesus will give the kingdom to the Father. Contrast that with your last line.
at the end of time, Jesus will give the kingdom to the Father. Contrast that with your last line.
genuineoriginal
New member
When Jesus departed the Earth, it was to travel to a far place where He would receive His kingdom. Luke 19:12
He is currently sitting at the right hand of God, waiting until God makes His enemies His footstool. Hebrews 1:13
Jesus is officially given the kingdom to rule when the seventh trump is blown. Revelation 12:10
Then He returns to Earth to rule the Gentiles with a rod of iron. Revelation 19:15
This lasts for 1,000 years. Revelation 20:4
During that time, the faithful believers will be given rule over cities. Luke 19:17
At the end of the 1,000 years, at the great white throne, death and hell are destroyed. Revelation 20:14
That is when the last enemy, death, is destroyed. 1 Corinthians 15:26
Once that is done, Jesus delivers the kingdom back to God the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24
Since that is the order of events, I did not misspeak when I said that Jesus will return to Earth when God the Father gives Him rule over the kingdom.
Interplanner
Well-known member
It's not. He reigns now, but it is not the kind you are thinking of. It is made without human hands, etc. He did not mean any of it that literal sense, and as you may have noticed you have to flit here and there to make things work, rather than staying in a passage such as I cor 15, or 2 Pet 3, where nothing is like this 'order of events.' There is no need for anything to happen like this--no compelling biblical reason.
I don't build anything on the Rev that is not crystal clear elsewhere first, sorry, no can do.
there is no "distance" to where He is now. Only in people's thinking.
The apostles said that he has sat down and the footstool of enemies was in place. This sent shock waves through the Roman world, even causing Emperor Vespasian to do certain social reforms. But it was by the proclamation of the Gospel, not by "soldiers" enacting such. Even at the crucifixion, there was enough said to make Pilate realize no threat of the usual kind was intended (and Acts was written to show the same thing about Paul); yet everything the Christians said sounded like this Christ was King of the Universe. Indeed! With plenty of signs and proof!
I don't build anything on the Rev that is not crystal clear elsewhere first, sorry, no can do.
there is no "distance" to where He is now. Only in people's thinking.
The apostles said that he has sat down and the footstool of enemies was in place. This sent shock waves through the Roman world, even causing Emperor Vespasian to do certain social reforms. But it was by the proclamation of the Gospel, not by "soldiers" enacting such. Even at the crucifixion, there was enough said to make Pilate realize no threat of the usual kind was intended (and Acts was written to show the same thing about Paul); yet everything the Christians said sounded like this Christ was King of the Universe. Indeed! With plenty of signs and proof!
genuineoriginal
New member
It is a sad, sad, thing to believe as you do.
Paul said people like you are the most miserable of men.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Hold on, I have no idea what you mean. I'm thrilled and scared to think that Christ is to be proclaimed as Lord. Thrilled because no one else deserves it. Scared because it will be rejected. Scared because 'the eye of sinful man / his glory does not see.' Just think of what would happen to all these people who 'are finding out that they are something else' to hear that because of the stamp of approval of the resurrection this whole world and everyone alive is who Christ says they are; not homosexuals, not (put your favorite dysfunction here), but you are Christs. It shatters the whole world.
But there is nothing miserable about it! Everything Christ already is will be given me at his coming, because my life is hidden in him, Col 3. There is nothing there about Judaism.
The people who are miserable in I Cor 15 (if you'd read more than you apparently do), are those who have no Lord reigning--because no Lord was resurrected! Don't you know even these basic, daring facts of the faith?
Futurism really is a problem because there is nothing daring or bold about it. You never challenge your world and "turn it upside down" Acts 17:6, referring of course to what their preaching meant. You just have this "safe" doctrine of being removed, and nothing ever happens. Or it all happens as though on a TV screen at some future point. That's very debilitating and mediocritizing.
"His kingdom is not of this world; if it were his servants would fight." But that means not the usual kind of entity known as a state, and never will be until the whole thing is his in the NHNE.
But there is nothing miserable about it! Everything Christ already is will be given me at his coming, because my life is hidden in him, Col 3. There is nothing there about Judaism.
The people who are miserable in I Cor 15 (if you'd read more than you apparently do), are those who have no Lord reigning--because no Lord was resurrected! Don't you know even these basic, daring facts of the faith?
Futurism really is a problem because there is nothing daring or bold about it. You never challenge your world and "turn it upside down" Acts 17:6, referring of course to what their preaching meant. You just have this "safe" doctrine of being removed, and nothing ever happens. Or it all happens as though on a TV screen at some future point. That's very debilitating and mediocritizing.
"His kingdom is not of this world; if it were his servants would fight." But that means not the usual kind of entity known as a state, and never will be until the whole thing is his in the NHNE.
One verse blows apart your entire theory
(Mark 13:30 KJV) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
There are dozens more that prove you wrong also.
That's rich, "guy"- "this" really means "that," you sneer, in your spineless, "cute" manner..
Like the Lord Jesus Christ's return was invisible, but everyone saw him, but you claim "his return" really means the Roman army, eh, punk? And you lied about that, claiming that you never said it. To wit:
"Tet: "The LORD Jesus Christ returned in the form of a Roman Army." "-STP
"Never said that."-Tet.
Lie-
"Tet is a preterist that believes Christ already returned in 70 AD via the Roman Army."-Tambora, on another TOL thread
"Correct, and thanks for making it clear that it was the Roman army that was His return."-stupid Craigie
"The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. That is what Jesus meant when He said He will return."-Gomer Tet.
Vs.
"Jesus never physically returned, and never will physically return to planet earth after He ascended to Heaven"-Preterist deceiver Tet.
According to this Preterist con job, in this "man made" AD 70-ism "belief system," he returned "un physically," but everyone saw Him, and signs are invisible.
“And that is what happened. The Lord came in a way that everyone could see Him. However, He never touched planet earth, and when this event was over, He then sat on the throne in Heaven NOT on planet earth.”-Tet.
Ascended up physically, never returned physically in AD 70, just as some disembodied spirit, everyone saw Him, even though he did not return physically in AD 70.
Wait....it was the Roman army.
Scam artist.
"I am not here to teach........anyone....I am here to learn."-Craigie Tet.
We know. Sit down, shut up, and learn.
Any more lies you'd like to spam, Craigie?
Never mind that Partial Preterists differ in their understanding of the sense of that passage.
Not really.
At least I provided a verse.
Still waiting for you to provide that magical verse somewhere in the middle of the book of Acts that verifies what you claim.
genuineoriginal
New member
You forgot to check to see what Jesus meant by "all these things".
Matthew 24:1-3 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? |