The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[john w]

Nope...
Every one of those things is a lie..., you have no other alternative than to try and attack me personally.

Why you lying hypocrite, actress, with your lies re. "attack me personally."


Want to go over your "personal attacks," "insults," that you've leveled against me, and others, just recently, punk?



I tought so, you sniveling fraud.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

STP has made it clear that he believes in soul sleep.

I used to watch Soul Train.

 

[john w]

STP has made it clear that he believes in soul sleep.

You asserted I also do, punk. And I asked you to prove it, with quotes.

John W says I am unemployed, a Sodomite, filed chp 13, divorced, and on my 3rd wife.


Every one of those things is a lie. Yet, you believe what he says about me.

"Every dispensationalist is a Darby follower."-you

"John W believes in soul sleep...is a Darby/Bullinger follower.....Johnny W, like STP and heir adhere to E.W. Bullinger's teaching on Revelation,"-you


Fine. You lie about me, you punk.... Then:

You are unemployed, a sodomite, filed chapter 11, and are on your 3rd wife.


See how that works, habitual liar?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

70AD marked the end of the ages. John was told not to seal the scroll because the time was near.

It did not even end the end of the age because until there is a worldwide harvest the end of that age will not happen:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world."

And that is exactly what the Lord Jesus was referring to when he said this:

"take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:27,34-35).​

Let us look at verses in the Revelation which also speak of "all that dwell upon the earth":

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea...And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb" (Rev.13:1,7-8).​

Next, John describes the Lord Jesus exercising the wrath of God to all those who worship the beast, those who are described as being "all kindreds, and tongues, and nations":

"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle...And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Rev.14:14,16).​

There has never been a time when the "earth was reaped" and all non-believers were judged and punished. This judgment of the day of the wrath of God revealed at Revelation 14: 9-10 has not yet occurred.

But there are some on this thread like you, who will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

 

[john w]

The bottom line is, you can't defend the false teachings of Darby, and because you can't, you have no other alternative than to try and attack me personally.
You're a typical Darby follower.

“According to John W, you insult the other person by calling them names, and tell them they are a liar. Or, according to Nick M and Elyon, you call them names, tell them they are not saved, and that they are going to hell. Or, according to Lighthouse, you just call them idiots and morons…. Therefore, when I encounter a fellow believer who has a different understanding of scripture than I do, I do not rebuke them by calling them names, telling them they are not saved, insulting them, or calling them a liar like you do….You on the other hand, when encountering a believer who believes differently than you, are convinced that you know the 100% objective truth of the Bible, so you call the fellow believer names, and call them a liar…. just look at the name calling by Nick M, Butterfly, Lighthouse, and John W; this is what being a MADist is all about. When they are shown scripture they don’t like, they turn into little kids…. You are doing exactly as Johnny, and most of the other MADists do, and that is when you can’t do it with scripture, you attack the person.… If what I post is not true, than a well educated believer such as yourself should easily be able to show me where I am wrong instead of running away, or attacking me…. I have questioned some of Andy's posts, as has Godrulz. We can do it without calling him names, and without just copying and pasting the same thing over and over and over again… Therefore, I stand by my original statement that calling someone a name who does not agree with how you understand the Bible makes no sense since there is the possibility you could be wrong. MADists don't want to hear this, since they live to correct people, and call them names.. and when that doesn’t work, you resort to name calling…. Don't make me laughYou and Johnny and Nick M are the biggest name callers on TOL.”-Tet


Vs.

"You aren't very bright, are you."-Craigie on this thread

"Apparently you never saw Johnny W's living quarters."-post #987 of Craigie, this thread.



" I have questioned some of Andy's posts, as has Godrulz. We can do it without calling him names, and without just copying and pasting the same thing over and over and over again "-Craigie


Vs. "Darby"-666,666 times on TOL


You fat fraud.

 

[john w]

Every one of those things is a lie. Yet, you believe what he says about me.

Explain this lie, as I've asked you for years, habitual liar:

"That's not my argument.I have never said that dispensationalism was "wrong" because of how old it was. I specifically said that no one taught about Christ coming back twice before Darby did."--habitual liar Wimpy Tet.

“I never said it was wrong for how old it is.”-Tet.

vs.

"My argument is that if there is not one single trace of something for 1,800+ years by anyone, then it was invented.”-Tet.


Not a peep.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Explain this lie, as I've asked you for years, habitual liar:

"That's not my argument.I have never said that dispensationalism was "wrong" because of how old it was. I specifically said that no one taught about Christ coming back twice before Darby did."--habitual liar Wimpy Tet.

“I never said it was wrong for how old it is.”-Tet.

vs.

"My argument is that if there is not one single trace of something for 1,800+ years by anyone, then it was invented.”-Tet.


Not a peep.

I was just talking to Wally and Dud about this discrepancy.

 

[George Affleck]

Does Jerry apply "family" to every instance of genea?

Of course not.

Jerry is not consistent in his hermeneutics.
All of dispensationalism is this way. Inconsistent with God's Word.

In Matt 24:34 it specifically says in Jerry's interpretation.
"This family will not pass away until these things take place".
Yet, Jerry, being inconsistent, says the "family" will not pass away even after when the things take place.

Jerry how do you twist Scripture to make "until these things take place" to mean something completely opposite?

Jerry also forgets that translation involves context.
The "family" meaning is tossed out because of context: Mat16:28KJV,

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

"John W believes in soul sleep...is a Darby/Bullinger follower.....Johnny W, like STP and heir adhere to E.W. Bullinger's teaching on Revelation,"-you

I do not know about soul sleep, but saint john w the great, I know that you adhere to pew sleep when Dr. Breen gets on a roll.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry also forgets that translation involves context.
The "family" meaning is tossed out because of context: Mat16:28KJV,

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Mt.16 27-28).​

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "coming" at Matthew 16:28 is "to appear" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore, we can understand that the Lord Jesus was saying that there were some of the Apostles who would see the Lord Jesus "appearing" in His kingdom before they died.

The words of Peter in his first epistle refers to this "appearing" in His kingdom and it happened at the "transfiguration" on the holy mount:

"For, skilfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but eye-witnesses having become of his majesty. for having received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being borne to him by the excellent glory: 'This is My Son -- the beloved, in whom I was well pleased" (2 Pet.1:16-18; YLT).​

Peter is speaking of seeing the Lord's "presence" and he also says that he was was an eyewitness of His "majesty". The word "majesty" is translated from the Greek word megaleiotes and that word means "greatness, magnificence...of the visible splendor of the divine majesty as it appeared in the transfiguration of Christ, 2 Peter i.16" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore we can understand that what happened on the Holy Mount fulfilled the Lord Jesus' words that some of His Apostles would witness His "appearance" or "presence" in His kingdom.

In each gospel that records the words of the Lord Jesus saying that some of His Apostles will see Him in the kingdom the events of the "transfiguration" immediately follow. On the holy mount "His face did shine like the sun, and His rainment was as white as the light" (Mt.17:2).

The "family" meaning is tossed out because of context: Mat16:28KJV,

The "generation" meaning is tossed out because no first century generation saw a world wide judgment:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

 

[john w]

I do not know about soul sleep, but saint john w the great, I know that you adhere to pew sleep when Dr. Breen gets on a roll.

He's as dry as dust also. I wake up, when Jezebel Clara Edwards Johnson Harcourt Darby Smith starts playin', "Ringing in the Sheaves," on that piano contraption.

 

[Interplanner]

It was the original intention for the whole earth to be judged right after Israel's destruction, but a delay was allowed. It is referred to three ways.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

You just ignored this passage which demonstrates the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom would not even be near until he returned:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

We also know that the kingdom had not been restored to Israel at Acts 1, as witnessed by the Apostle's question to the Lord Jesus:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).​

The Lord Jesus said the following about His kingdom:

"Jesus answered, my kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (Jn.18:36).​

Despite this you say that His kingdom was on the earth and that is how you try to change the meaning of what the Lord Jesus said about the world wide harvest that will happen at the end of the age:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

Since you have no place for the fulfillment of this prophecy in your eschatology you must "invent" a kingdom which was exclusive to Israel and operational while the Lord Jesus walked the earth. But there was no kingdom like that in the first century.

Here is something else which will happen at the end of the age and it is certain that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).​

If this event happened in the past then tell me when it happened.

Thanks!

So, Jesus started by preaching that the Kingdom of God was at hand, but he finished by preaching that the Kingdom of God was not at hand? Please clarify.

Again, one simple question: In what sense did the Pharisees/Israel have the Kingdom at that time when Jesus said it would be taken from them? They had to have it then and there in some sense in order for Jesus to say it would be taken from them.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Man, what your school is infamous for as to the overall sense of things is all over that - types this; shadows that; which then throw you as they do. Thus, your "otherwise doesn't make sense."

They were the children of the kingdom but it, and they, were under a Gentile power: Rome; for their disobedience; see Daniel 9's prayer.

And Daniel had prophesied their kingdom would one day be restored again; Daniel 2:44, for example.

No types; they were living "in the days of these kings" - "no king but Caesar" John. 19:16.

But there was an issue concerning some of these "children of the kingdom" - a faith issue.

Matthew 8:

10. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:

50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So, how would you define what it meant for them to be "children of the Kingdom"?

 

[Danoh]

So, how would you define what it meant for them to be "children of the Kingdom"?

Lol, hope you won't mind my basing this on Scripture in contrast to your obvious reliance on the writings of men.

Here goes - two types comprised the children of the kingdom...

Matthew 13:

36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him,
saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Those in 38c, 40-42 are these "children of the kingdom" mentioned here in Matthew 8:

11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Lol, this is referred to as "rightly dividing the word of truth" as to distinctions between those things that are the same, and those "Things That Differ."

Between Horizontal, and Vertical Truth.

 

[Interplanner]

To study these things more systematically, see:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111542

 

[genuineoriginal]

So, Jesus started by preaching that the Kingdom of God was at hand, but he finished by preaching that the Kingdom of God was not at hand? .

That is true.

Please clarify
Again, one simple question: In what sense did the Pharisees/Israel have the Kingdom at that time when Jesus said it would be taken from them? They had to have it then and there in some sense in order for Jesus to say it would be taken from them.

Jerry Shugart will have a different answer, but here is mine.

In the prophecy of the seventy weeks (Daniel 9), the children of Israel were given 490 years to repent of their transgressions so they could be given the kingdom. Messiah the prince, Jesus, came at the beginning of the last seven years of that 490 years in order to be cut off in the middle of it to confirm the New Covenant in His blood.

Both John the Baptist and Jesus the Messiah preached repentance because the kingdom was at hand. If the children of Israel repented by the end of the 490 years, then the kingdom would have been returned to the children of Israel during the Roman-Jewish war and the children of Israel would have ruled over the Gentiles as prophesied.

Near the end of the time Jesus spent preaching, it became obvious that the children of Israel were not going to repent, so the message changed from the good news that the kingdom was at hand to the news that the kingdom was going to be taken from them.

This ended with the prophecy of the great tribulation of the Jews where Israel would remain desolate until the end of the captivity.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, Jesus started by preaching that the Kingdom of God was at hand, but he finished by preaching that the Kingdom of God was not at hand? Please clarify.

Due to Israel's unbelief the kingdom was postponed. The Lord Jesus said that the kingdom will not be near until he returns to the earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

Of course that has not happened yet because before it can happen a judgment of God covering a large land mass must happen after the great tribulation is over must occur first. And nothing like that happened in 70AD.

In what sense did the Pharisees/Israel have the Kingdom at that time when Jesus said it would be taken from them? They had to have it then and there in some sense in order for Jesus to say it would be taken from them.

The traditional leadership in Israel belonged to the scribes and the Pharisees (see Mt.23:1-3).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1, Rom 11 is prodding not prediction.

It teaches us something valuable.

In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away, a nation that was made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

"God forbid."​

But preterism has no place in their eschatology for a time when the nation of Israel will once again be the Lord's special people:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

That will happen when the house of Israel and the house of Judah will finally be a blessing to the world:

"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:13,23).​

Of course the preterist have no place for the fulfillment of this prophecy so they must do their best to spiritualize it away!

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Lol, hope you won't mind my basing this on Scripture in contrast to your obvious reliance on the writings of men.

Here goes - two types comprised the children of the kingdom...

Matthew 13:

36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him,
saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Those in 38c, 40-42 are these "children of the kingdom" mentioned here in Matthew 8:

11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Lol, this is referred to as "rightly dividing the word of truth" as to distinctions between those things that are the same, and those "Things That Differ."

Between Horizontal, and Vertical Truth.

Now, please answer the question. Who are the children of the kingdom? And what does that term mean?

Are the children of the kingdom the same people in both verses?