The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[beloved57]

The free gift is for all men. Not all are saved because they reject the free gift.

The free gift comes upon all men, its not offered, no more as condemnation was offered to all men.

Rom 5:18

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Just like Judgment came upon all men :

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

Now, could the All Men reject that ? No. its not offered.

Its not something God offers, but what He in Himself declares to be True.

 

[beloved57]

more on Rom 5:18

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now there is another group who opposes God Truth, known as the Universalist, who corrupt the Gospel Truth to teach that all without exception will be eventually saved based upon Rom 5:18 !

However in this context Paul makes clear that only those receiving vs 17 Gods Gift belong to Christ, meaning those who believe through Grace..

Rom 5:17

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Acts 18:27

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:


The words as and so tells us that Paul's aim is not that of number of each group, but as to the method or manner, of either sin or righteousness being imputed because of one representative's headship to its group.

So the First All men refers to all who were in Adam, while the second All men refers to who were in Christ, and only God is responsible for the all men in both Representative Heads.

We did not will ourselves into Adam, neither do men will themselves into Christ, God chose who was to be in Adam [have physical being] in like manner, God chose who was to be in Christ Eph 1:4 and have spiritual being.

All the Men chosen in Christ before the foundation, are the ones receiving the gift of righteousness and the Justification unto life.

So the universalist is in error as much as the freewiller..

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The free gift is for all men. Not all are saved because they reject the free gift.

If not for Paul's prison epistles, I would believe in the so-called "Limited Atonement". In the Old Testament, only those Jews and God fearing Gentiles who gathered around the tabernacle on the day of Atonement received the atonement. It was only made for "God's people".

What the Calvinist cannot see is that Israel fell, and Paul revealed that Jesus Christ died for all men's sins, even those not associated with Israel and even those who are not of "God's people". It's the dispensation of the grace of God, and it was a mystery hidden in God...and still hidden to Calvinists and most "Christians".

 

[godrulz]

If not for Paul's prison epistles, I would believe in the so-called "Limited Atonement". In the Old Testament, only those Jews and God fearing Gentiles who gathered around the tabernacle on the day of Atonement received the atonement. It was only made for "God's people".

What the Calvinist cannot see is that Israel fell, and Paul revealed that Jesus Christ died for all men's sins, even those not associated with Israel and even those who are not of "God's people". It's the dispensation of the grace of God, and it was a mystery hidden in God...and still hidden to Calvinists and most "Christians".

Hogwash non sequitur. Most non-MAD Christians fully understand the gospel of grace and are as Pauline as you are. You are trying to make yourself into a gnostic sect.

The problems with Calvinism/TULIP are not related to rejecting MAD/hyperdispensationalism.

It is sheer arrogance/ignorance to think most Calvinists/Christians are clueless about Paul/gospel because they differ in nuanced understanding that is secondary to a strong Reformational affirmation of salvation by grace through faith apart from works.

If you want a cause, go after MAD for denying grace to post-cross, pre-Paul believers?! This is the real heresy and rejection of the sufficiency of His finished work, not L or not in TULIP.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Hogwash non sequitur. Most non-MAD Christians fully understand the gospel of grace and are as Pauline as you are. You are trying to make yourself into a gnostic sect.

The problems with Calvinism/TULIP are not related to rejecting MAD/hyperdispensationalism.

It is sheer arrogance/ignorance to think most Calvinists/Christians are clueless about Paul/gospel because they differ in nuanced understanding that is secondary to a strong Reformational affirmation of salvation by grace through faith apart from works.

If you want a cause, go after MAD for denying grace to post-cross, pre-Paul believers?! This is the real heresy and rejection of the sufficiency of His finished work, not L or not in TULIP.

This string of cliches has nothing to do with what I posted.

 

[beloved57]

Benefit from Christ obedience !

All those Christ died for, that is, obedient unto death, by His obedience, all for whom He died shall live by Faith. The scripture says, that the Just shall live by Faith.​

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Rom 1:17​

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For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.​

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Gal 3:11​

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But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.​

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Heb 10:38​

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Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.​

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This is important, and this will show us that by Jesus Christ death alone, it effects Faith in the lives of those He gave himself for.​

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Rom 5:19​

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19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

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Now, Paul declares in His Gospel here, that by the obedience of one [That being Christ] many shall [ a promise] be made righteous !​

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Now the word for righteous here is the greek word​

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dikaios which means:​

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) righteous, observing divine laws​

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a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God​

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1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined​

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2) innocent, faultless, guiltless​

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3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life​

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a) only Christ truly​

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4) approved of or acceptable of God​

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The word is also translated Just as in Rom 1:17​

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17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.​

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It can read, the righteous shall live by Faith !​

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Notice the word shall again ? Its a promise, the promise is, the righteous or the Just shall, no question about it, shall live by Faith.​

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This means unequivocal that all whom Christ became obedient for, by His one obedience, they shall be made to live by Faith. Because they shall be made righteous or just by His obedience, and the promise is the righteous or Just shall live by Faith..​

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So the death of Christ ensures Faith to all for whom He died. None He died for can remain a unbeliever, that would defeat the effects and promised blessings of His death..​

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And consequently, those never believing or having Faith, He never died for them..​

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[beloved57]

If all Christ died for shall be made righteous , and all without exception are not made righteous, then, common sense tells us that Christ did not die for all without exception..

Rom 5: 19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[horiturk]

i think personal responsibility is a beautiful thing,while the notion of umbrella redemption is moving i believe it to be unnecessary in the extent that it is preached

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If all Christ died for shall be made righteous , and all without exception are not made righteous, then, common sense tells us that Christ did not die for all without exception..

rom 5 19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2 Cor 5
14: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16: Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


only in Calvinism does "one died for all" mean only the elect, but "then were all dead" mean all people.

 

[beloved57]

2 Cor 5
14: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16: Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


only in Calvinism does "one died for all" mean only the elect, but "then were all dead" mean all people.

again:

If all Christ died for shall be made righteous , and all without exception are not made righteous, then, common sense tells us that Christ did not die for all without exception..

Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience [Death] of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you know what Shall means ? Try to use common sense..

 

[beloved57]

By His Knowledge He shall Justify Many !

Isa 53:11​

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11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. ​

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Those He knows, He Justifies, why, because He shall bear their sins or iniquities. But those He says He never knew, as per Matt 7:23​

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23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

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He never bear their iniquities. So His death was limited to those He knew, those given to Him of the Father. Jn 6:37​

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37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;​

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[beloved57]

The Sheep will Believe !

The Sheep will believe in Christ because they were given to Christ ! Those God before the foundation, gave to His Son, will believe in Him in time. Thats why and the effects of having been given.​

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Jesus said to some, the reason why you do not believe is because you are not of my Sheep Jn 10:26​

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26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.​

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So, it stands for reason, those who believe, is because They are of His Sheep. And, its specifically said that He lay down His life for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15​

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11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.​

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15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.​

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So, its because He laid down His Life for the Sheep, that they believe on Him.​

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Those therefore who do not believe, because they are not of His Sheep, He did not lay down His life for.​

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Unbelief in its finality, means Christ did not die for one, and that one will perish for their own sins..​

 

[beloved57]

Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: cp with 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 

[horiturk]

i think what christians did is take things out of context and make them into something else completely

 

[beloved57]

Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people


Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins

Notice, His People and not all people without exception. His People, and not all ethnic jews, for all ethnic jews are not His People. Jesus told some of them, who were of the seed of abraham according to the flesh in Jn 8:37, that they had the devil as their Father, and not God Jn 8:42-44

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the Promise in Matt 1:21 is to save God's People, which puts a limit on who He came to save. His People BTW are all those Chosen in Him Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[beloved57]

Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

This indicates that He died only for His Church, not everyone without exception.​

 

[godrulz]

Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

Eph 5:


25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

This indicates that He died only for His Church, not everyone without exception.​

No, it does not say that, but it does support corporate vs individual election.

 

[beloved57]

Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

John 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

This omits indication that He layed down his life for the goats.

 

[beloved57]

He died for a specific and definite People !

Isa 53:6,8

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The all in view here is all His People, all the Children of God, the Children of Promise. Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The LORD laid all their sins, not all the sins of everyone in the world, but the sins of all who would believe.

Its the sins of all His Sheep who had gone astray that were laid upon Him, not of the goats whom He will say " I never knew you ". It was for the sins of the Sheep that He paid their sin debt to God. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation for the lambs. Remember He told Peter Jn 21:15

So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Feed them with the Gospel of Truth.

Not one of these Lambs, these Sheep shall be lost Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Remember who Jesus said the Father gave Him Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

All the Sheep have their sins Paid for by the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

His Sheep are a specific definite People that Christ died for ! The My People is My Sheep, and it was all of their iniquity that was laid upon Him, and no others..

 

[beloved57]

Another verse that sets forth the Limited Atonement, that Christ did not die for all without exception ! 2 Cor 5:21

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now, is Paul speaking to or about everyone in the world without exception here ? I am afraid not, but to believers of the Gospel He preached 1 Cor 15:3-4..The Church of Christ, His Bride. Paul wrote this to them in his second epistle 2 Cor 11:2

2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rev 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



This is who 2 Cor 5:21 refers to !