The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[beloved57]

The Lord Jesus Christ coming into the world to die for sin was in keeping with a covenant promise to a special covenant People, it was to be a mercy to them.

Deut 7:6-9


6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

cp Lk 1:68-72

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

This is why the Apostle Paul, the servant to the gentiles spake this:

Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This Israel however is not ethnic jews or National Israel, but the mystical or Spiritual Israel of God comprised of both jews and gentiles of the spiritual seed of Abraham..

And so the promise of salvation has always been to a specific and definite people..hence Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[patricius79]

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:4,6

Rom 5:18-19

1 Tim 4:10

Rom 11:32

 

[beloved57]

Rom 5:15

The false concept that Christ died for all men without exception, is a distorted doctrine that minimizes the effects and consequences of Christ death, in order to give man credit for the efficaciousness of Christ work, this is a work of the enemy.

Now lets look at another scripture teaching of Paul, in His Gospel of Christ.

The consequences or effects of Adam verses that of Jesus Christ..

Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one [Adam] many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Many [ those who Adam was the representative head of ] died or be dead [alienation from God] through or because of one man's offense or trespass [Rom 5:12]

Now, it should be pointed out and made clear, that the effects of Adams actions was received, given and not offered and made available to all those he represented in his offence. It was not offered them, hey since Adam sinned, you wanna accept being made dead, or accept that you died its up to your freewill ? It was none of that, but simply, they received of God the sentence of death, nothing they could do or say about it.

Now the contrast !

Much more, as the consequences and effects of the One Man Christ Jesus, and those He represented, as a effect the Grace of God, and the Gift by Grace [ righteousness] again which is by or through one Man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded to many. That is, they have received, been given the Grace of God and the gift of righteousness, it was not offered them, made available to them, but it was received by them as effectively as death was received by those that Adam represented.

This Grace of God Paul says abounded unto many, that is they [the many] was furnished with abundant grace. not only that, but they were given the gift by grace !

What gift ? vs 16 tells us Justification of life:

but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

and vs 18

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So this is the effects and consequences of each Man, the Man Adam, for all whom He represented, His act brought many to be dead, not offered, and likewise, the consequences and effects of the Man Christ Jesus, much more, for those He represented, His act brought many the grace of God and Justification of life.

Now unless, we say that all men without exception have been given Justification of life, which we know is not true, then we are saying that Adams act and consequences are greater than that of Christ which is praising the creature over the Creator , the will of man over the will of God, the effects of Adam greater than the effects of Christ.

 

[godrulz]

TULIP vs non-TULIP is not God vs Antichrist. It is a different paradigm relating to sovereignty, free will, nature/extent of 'atonement, etc. If anything, the noetic effects of sin, violation of exegetical/theological principles, etc. is the issue.

Let's save doctrines of demons talk for Christianity vs Islam, JWs, Mormons, etc., not theological disputes between equally capable, godly believers that appear to have support in Scripture (proof texting is the problem, not demons). What may be demonic is the accuser of brethren mentality, undermining of love/unity in the Body over peripheral issues, etc.

 

[No Sheep Here]

Where does it say that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent? The principle is taught without the exact words, duh.

How can your god be both omniscient and omnipotent at the same time? That is impossible, kinda like a square circle. Think about it. If it is true that your bible has accurate predictions about future events regarding the things that will happen before the Christian myth of Jesus retuning, god is not omnipotent concerning the future. He is totally powerless to do as he pleases at this point, even if he wanted to. He is stuck on the path that concludes in the events in the bible to be fulfilled. He has laid down his omnipotence to assure that what you believe about prophecy in the future is carried out as promised.

 

[godrulz]

How can your god be both omniscient and omnipotent at the same time? That is impossible, kinda like a square circle. Think about it. If it is true that your bible has accurate predictions about future events regarding the things that will happen before the Christian myth of Jesus retuning, god is not omnipotent concerning the future. He is totally powerless to do as he pleases at this point, even if he wanted to. He is stuck on the path that concludes in the events in the bible to be fulfilled. He has laid down his omnipotence to assure that what you believe about prophecy in the future is carried out as promised.

God is omnipotent, but this does not mean He always exercises brute force all of the time. He can do anything doable (vs illogical things like square circles), but this does not mean He actually does everything doable. He could kill me dead right now, but He limits the exercise of power based on wisdom, contingencies, etc.

Is. 46 and 48 shows that God does predict some vs all of the future. These are things that He brings about by His ability, such as the First and Second Coming of Christ. It does not mean that He is omnicausal or that He knows the future as settled if it is partially open by His sovereign choice.

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with libertarian free will. So, by creating significant others with limited self-determination vs divine determinism, the nature of His future knowledge is limited to possible, probable, some vs all things certain (two motifs...some of future is open, some closed, so He knows reality as it is). Omniscience is limited by the knowable. There are some things that are inherently unknowable, even to an omniscient God. It does not limit Him to not be able to create a rock too heavey to life. It does not limit Him to not know where Yoda is right now.

There are problems with classical understanding of some attributes such as omniscience, immutability, impassibility, etc. When biblically and logically defined, there is no issue with omnipotence, sovereignty, omniscience, etc.

You are attacking a straw man due to your lack of understanding of the intricacies of these debates. As well, God is not timeless, so this has implications on other areas. Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions or apparent problems that actually have a resolution.

 

[No Sheep Here]

You are attacking a straw man due to your lack of understanding of the intricacies of these debates. As well, God is not timeless, so this has implications on other areas. Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions or apparent problems that actually have a resolution.

Im not attacking anything, I am asking about the obvious contradiction of the claim. I'm not concerned about the fancy apologetic explanations. The fact that a god would need apologist is amusing to me in the first place. Anyways, the majority of the world is not concerned about your claim, so calm down about the attacks, your beliefs are futile to me. Your beliefs are one of many I question.

How is it you know these things about your god? Where are you getting this info from and how do you know it's accurate? I ask because I am also on other Christian boards and they seem to not agree with you. Even on this board there are many who would disagree with you. How is your claim about the attributes of god correct?

 

[godrulz]

The Bible and godly philosophy give us revelation and logic. Christians disagree on different things. There is no problem between omniscience and omnipotence. If you think there is, then you misunderstand the issues. Test my ideas and test other ideas. Do they stand up to scrutiny?

 

[No Sheep Here]

The Bible and godly philosophy give us revelation and logic. Christians disagree on different things. There is no problem between omniscience and omnipotence. If you think there is, then you misunderstand the issues. Test my ideas and test other ideas. Do they stand up to scrutiny?

Why do you think the Christian community is so divided? Why is it that you guys can't come to the same conclusion on a book and belief which most of you claim to be the absolute truth? What is your take on this?

 

[godrulz]

Why do you think the Christian community is so divided? Why is it that you guys can't come to the same conclusion on a book and belief which most of you claim to be the absolute truth? What is your take on this?

There are various reasons including the noetic effects of sin on the mind. It is no different than scientists interpreting the same data/evidence differently or debates about what Shakespeare meant. Some Christian groups are simply in error and it can be demonstrated that they have faulty logic. Some build ideas on imperfect translations, uncritically accept what was taught in church history (too much trust in imperfect Calvin, Popes, etc.).

Evolutionists and atheists have divergent views on any given subject. So?

It is the glory of a king to search out a matter (Proverbs). There is also much agreement and unity on the essentials of the faith in the face or heretical attacks. Peripheral issues are not the end of the world. Even the early church had doctrinal disputes and were able to work them out over time under the leadership of the Spirit.

 

[No Sheep Here]

There are various reasons including the noetic effects of sin on the mind. It is no different than scientists interpreting the same data/evidence differently or debates about what Shakespeare meant. Some Christian groups are simply in error and it can be demonstrated that they have faulty logic. Some build ideas on imperfect translations, uncritically accept what was taught in church history (too much trust in imperfect Calvin, Popes, etc.).

Evolutionists and atheists have divergent views on any given subject. So?

It is the glory of a king to search out a matter (Proverbs). There is also much agreement and unity on the essentials of the faith in the face or heretical attacks. Peripheral issues are not the end of the world. Even the early church had doctrinal disputes and were able to work them out over time under the leadership of the Spirit.

Well first off it is nothing like scientist debating on data, because with data the claim is falsifiable depending on data, and that's when real scientist get in the lab and prove their conclusion true or false, it's not solved with debates or opinions, it's resolved by testing. Religious claims are nothing like this, because you can't falsify someones faith claim unless it's testable and it's not because it's a faith claim which by definition requires no evidence to begin with.

I see Christians always say certain groups are in error--not their own of course. How do you know you're not in error? And I'm sorry, but their are not just trivial arguments like you would want me to believe; there are very problematic issues in a lot of cases concerning salvation and other matter. Like the other day when you tried to say Noguru agrees with you on the essential but you just disagree with minor details; well, he corrected you on that and said in the next post that he agrees on nothing you do for the most part. So I am asking you how do you know you are not the one who is in error? What can you say or show me so that I can reach the conclusion you have arrived at? And please do not give me some obtuse answer like you have to have the spirit. Give me something tangible.

 

[Nick M]

God is omnipotent, but this does not mean He always exercises brute force all of the time. He can do anything doable (vs illogical things like square circles), but this does not mean He actually does everything doable. He could kill me dead right now, but He limits the exercise of power based on wisdom, contingencies, etc.

Is. 46 and 48 shows that God does predict some vs all of the future. These are things that He brings about by His ability, such as the First and Second Coming of Christ. It does not mean that He is omnicausal or that He knows the future as settled if it is partially open by His sovereign choice.

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with libertarian free will. So, by creating significant others with limited self-determination vs divine determinism, the nature of His future knowledge is limited to possible, probable, some vs all things certain (two motifs...some of future is open, some closed, so He knows reality as it is). Omniscience is limited by the knowable. There are some things that are inherently unknowable, even to an omniscient God. It does not limit Him to not be able to create a rock too heavey to life. It does not limit Him to not know where Yoda is right now.

There are problems with classical understanding of some attributes such as omniscience, immutability, impassibility, etc. When biblically and logically defined, there is no issue with omnipotence, sovereignty, omniscience, etc.

You are attacking a straw man due to your lack of understanding of the intricacies of these debates. As well, God is not timeless, so this has implications on other areas. Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions or apparent problems that actually have a resolution.

Unless of course he is dealing with sin. Right?

God is holy, not a deaf, dumb, blind idol with amnesia.

 

[Nick M]

How can your god be both omniscient and omnipotent at the same time?

Because he isn't omniscient. The Bible says so. He says he has been suprised at what people do. If you are all powerful, then you can not be all knowing. Because if you knwo what is going to happen, then you can not stop it.

You are arguing with a non believer, you know that right?

 

[YahuShuan]

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:4,6

Rom 5:18-19

1 Tim 4:10

Rom 11:32

In Romans 11:32 Paul is midrashing (as usual) a haftorah portion located in Isaiah...

Isaiah 59: Look, the hand of יהוה has not become too short to save, nor His ear too heavy to hear. But your crookednesses have separated you from your Elohim. And your sins have hidden His face from you, from hearing. For your hands have been defiled with blood, and your fingers with crookedness; your lips have spoken falsehood, your tongue mutters unrighteousness. No one calls for righteousness, and no one pleads for truth. They trust in emptiness and speak worthlessness; they conceive trouble and bring forth wickedness. They have hatched adders’ eggs and they weave the spider’s web. Whoever eats their eggs dies, and when one is broken an adder is hatched. Their webs do not become garments, nor do they cover themselves with their works. Their works are works of wickedness, and a deed of violence is in their hands. Their feet run to evil, and they hurry to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of wickedness, wasting and ruin are in their highways. The way of peace they have not known, and there is no right-ruling in their ways. They have made crooked paths for themselves, whoever treads in them shall not know peace. Therefore right-ruling has been far from us, and righteousness does not reach us. We look for light, but there is darkness; for brightness, but we walk in thick darkness! We feel for the wall like the blind, and we feel as without eyes. At noon we stumble as at twilight, in deserted places, like the dead. All of us growl like bears, and moan sadly like doves. We look for right-ruling, but there is none; for deliverance, but it is far from us. For our transgressions have increased before You, and our sins witnessed against us. For our transgressions are with us, and as for our crookednesses, we know them: transgressing, and being untrue to יהוה, and turning away from our Elohim, speaking oppression and apostasy, conceiving and pondering words of falsehood from the heart. And right-ruling is driven back, and righteousness stands far off. For truth has fallen in the street, and right is unable to enter. And the truth is lacking, and whoever turns away from evil makes himself a prey. And יהוה saw, and it displeased Him that there was no right-ruling. And He saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no intercessor. So His own arm saved for Him, and His righteousness upheld him. And He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of deliverance on His head. And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped Himself with ardour as a mantle. According to their deeds, so He repays, wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies. He repays recompense to the coastlands. And they shall fear the Name of יהוה from the west, and His esteem from the rising of the sun, when He comes like a distressing stream which the Spirit of יהוה drives on. “And the Redeemer shall come to Tsiyon, and to those turning from transgression in Yaʽaqoḇ,” declares יהוה. “As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” said יהוה: “My Spirit that is upon you, and My Words that I have put in your mouth, shall not be withdrawn from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” said יהוה, “from this time and forever.”

 

[No Sheep Here]

Because he isn't omniscient. The Bible says so. He says he has been suprised at what people do. If you are all powerful, then you can not be all knowing. Because if you knwo what is going to happen, then you can not stop it.

You are arguing with a non believer, you know that right?

You have an interesting view on this that I am not use to hearing Nick. Can you elaborate more on this? So you don't god id all-knowing? Am I interpreting what you are saying correctly?

 

[YahuShuan]

Why do you think the Christian community is so divided? Why is it that you guys can't come to the same conclusion on a book and belief which most of you claim to be the absolute truth? What is your take on this?

Everybody is going to be coming to the same conclusions pretty soon...
Ecc 12:6-14 Remember Him before the silver cord is loosed, or the golden bowl is broken, or the jar shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to Elohim who gave it. “Futility! Futility!” said the Qoheleth, “All is futile.” And besides being wise, Qoheleth also taught the people knowledge, and he listened and sought out – set in order many proverbs. Qoheleth sought to find out words of delight, and words of truth, rightly written. The words of the wise are like goads, and as nails driven by the masters of collections – they were given by one Shepherd. And besides these, my son, be warned – the making of many books has no end, and much study is a wearying of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the entire matter: Fear Elohim and guard His commands, for this applies to all mankind! For Elohim shall bring every work into right-ruling, including all that is hidden, whether good or whether evil.

See, folks have to believe what they say they believe or it all comes out in divisions. Isaiah 8:20 means what it say, but folks don't want to believe it. Based upon their free ride theory of not being under the law. They don't understand that Torah is a Treasure box full of blessings, but by not going into it to get them by "doing the Father's Commands" which tells Him we love Him, "If you love me keep MY COMMANDS", well then, they "choose" to be "cursed" and thus Yahuweh said "I will send great delusion upon them" SO THEY CAN'T SEE...

2Th 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, in order for them to be saved. And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood, in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but have delighted in the unrighteousness.

But they won't believe that either. Or this...

Joh 12:37-41 But though He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Yeshayahu the prophet might be filled, which he spoke, “יהוה, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of יהוה been revealed?” Because of this they were unable to believe, because again Yeshayahu said: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they should not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn, and I should heal them.” Yeshayahu said this when he saw His esteem and spoke of Him.

Yah said it plain enough. They don't believe their Messiah, Rock and Redeemer, wrote the Torah. He tried to tell them who He would accept for brothers sisters and mothers, and he even pointed to them. Those He pointed to obeyed the "Father's Commands". Which is Torah, but they don't have the belief in them that they claim because they don't believe they can "follow" the Messiah they claim to follow. That is quite delusioned I would think. Give it a minute, things are about to be whipped into shape.

 

[horiturk]

Everybody is going to be coming to the same conclusions pretty soon...

you guys have been saying that for close to two thousand years....i'm pretty sure its a pipe dream

 

[No Sheep Here]

Everybody is going to be coming to the same conclusions pretty soon...

you guys have been saying that for close to two thousand years....i'm pretty sure its a pipe dream

Yea, it seems that this is a conclusion not known by the overwhelming majority of the world. It only exist in Christian minds and has been assumed for over 2000 yrs. As I read the bible it became clear the Paul thought this was going to happen during his lifetime as he was telling people how to act and prepare. Im not convinced either.

 

[YahuShuan]

Yea, it seems that this is a conclusion not known by the overwhelming majority of the world. It only exist in Christian minds and has been assumed for over 2000 yrs. As I read the bible it became clear the Paul thought this was going to happen during his lifetime as he was telling people how to act and prepare. Im not convinced either.

The Book of Daniel states that in the last days "knowledge will be increased". You can not deny that technology has increased "like birth pains", nor can anyone deny that the loss of lives on the planet has also increased like "birth pains" recently. Nor can anyone deny that the prophecies of the Bible are not "cycles" as was written, instead of "paths" as was tranlated improperly. Nor can I deny the increase of ALL knowledge biblically either. You, no doubt can though. Now that we have planetarium programs that can go back in time, we can easily see why the Yahuweh tells us in Scripture that the stars speak, and their speech goes out to ALL THE EARTH, and man will have no excuse... Star of Bethlehem ...Now we got proof! Put that in your scientific pipe and smoke it.

I got the program and tried it myself...it's "kosher"!

 

[No Sheep Here]

The Book of Daniel states that in the last days "knowledge will be increased".

That is an logical guess being that knowledge had increased already in the writers lifetime as well. it doesn't take much to convince you does it?

Hey, knowledge will increaser in the next 10 yrs. Make me a prophet now too lain: