beloved57
Well-known member
Matt 1:21
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
Matt 1:21
Decretal determinism is not biblical despite the out of context proof texts. God's election of Christ is one thing, but our election in Christ happens when we believe, not before we exist or in eternity past. Anything less than this would compromise God's love and justice.
Damian
New member
Anything less than universal salvation is a mockery of love and justice. We both know that.
I do not know that because it is false.
Love has provided a perfect provision for redemption, but love also demands free will. It is painfully obvious that many reject God's love which cannot be divorced from His holiness and responsibility as a just Moral Governor of the universe. Jesus (not ACIM counterfeit) contrasts life and death, heaven and hell. There are two destinies because some know and love God, while others reject Him and His necessary provision. Satan and Hitler are not saved in the end, etc.
I believe the Bible, not your musings which are not the authoritative Word of God.
beloved57
Well-known member
God does not Love the Devil and his children, and has plenty of Justice for them. Matt 25:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt 23:
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
patricius79
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beloved57
Well-known member
So you believe He shall save His people from their sins ? You do understand that means those not saved are not his people and thats why he saved them not from their sins..
The promise is limited to His People.
patricius79
New member
beloved57
Well-known member
Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
If we do not believe in the Jesus Christ, that by His obedience alone, many shalll be made righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of Holy scripture. His obedience alone, as in the obedience of ONE, shal make many to be righteous.
If we include, our Faith, our repentance, anything we do, water baptism and etc, or any act of obedience of ours, to constitute us righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of scripture and the accomplishment of His obedience unto death.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
If we do not believe in the Jesus Christ, that by His obedience alone, many shalll be made righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of Holy scripture. His obedience alone, as in the obedience of ONE, shal make many to be righteous.
If we include, our Faith, our repentance, anything we do, water baptism and etc, or any act of obedience of ours, to constitute us righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of scripture and the accomplishment of His obedience unto death.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Those Christ died for , though for a time, while in nature they do not realize it, will never be condemned for their sins because Christ died for them 1 Cor 15:3
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Rom 4:25
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
When Christ died for their sins and paid in full the sin curse of all their iniquities.
And when Christ was raised again after having all our guilt laid upon His Shoulders, being raised from the dead, this made known that His death was effective.
He is now seated as their conqueror of death, and forerunner at God's Right Hand, and while He is there, He intercedes for and in behalf of all for whom He died, not for the whole Human race without exception, but for those given to Him by His Father, and His intercession for them with God is on the basis of His Shed Blood Matt 26:28
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The intercession of Christ for all those He died for produces Effective intervention, ensuring that they turn to God !
Rom 8:31-34
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The word for intercession in the greek is in the present tense, meaning that Christ is continually entreating the Father for all whom The Father gave Him to die for.
Its a travesty to even think for one second that the Intercessory of the Glorified Jesus Christ on behalf of all He died and rose again, can not but meet with a positive and successful outcome.
Thats what Isa means here Isa 53:10
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The Prolonging of His Days speaks to His resurrection from the dead and ascending to the right hand of God, and His Making Intercession for those He died, and as a result, the Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand.
If anyone Christ died for perish in their sins, then The Pleasure of the Lord did not prosper in His Hand, neither was His intercession effective in sending intervention in the Lives for whom He died and God wanted saved.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Rom 4:25
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
When Christ died for their sins and paid in full the sin curse of all their iniquities.
And when Christ was raised again after having all our guilt laid upon His Shoulders, being raised from the dead, this made known that His death was effective.
He is now seated as their conqueror of death, and forerunner at God's Right Hand, and while He is there, He intercedes for and in behalf of all for whom He died, not for the whole Human race without exception, but for those given to Him by His Father, and His intercession for them with God is on the basis of His Shed Blood Matt 26:28
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The intercession of Christ for all those He died for produces Effective intervention, ensuring that they turn to God !
Rom 8:31-34
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The word for intercession in the greek is in the present tense, meaning that Christ is continually entreating the Father for all whom The Father gave Him to die for.
Its a travesty to even think for one second that the Intercessory of the Glorified Jesus Christ on behalf of all He died and rose again, can not but meet with a positive and successful outcome.
Thats what Isa means here Isa 53:10
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The Prolonging of His Days speaks to His resurrection from the dead and ascending to the right hand of God, and His Making Intercession for those He died, and as a result, the Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand.
If anyone Christ died for perish in their sins, then The Pleasure of the Lord did not prosper in His Hand, neither was His intercession effective in sending intervention in the Lives for whom He died and God wanted saved.
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patricius79
New member
beloved57
Well-known member
This is scripture Rom 5:19
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
If you do not believe that, you don't believe in the Christ of scripture.
By Christ obedience alone shall many be made righteous..
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patricius79
New member
amen
all our works of mercy are the works of Jesus Christ
Cf. James 2:14,15,16,17,24
beloved57
Well-known member
All for whom Christ died, they shall be made righteous by His obedience alone.
Rom 5:19
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
The Many He died for Shall be made righteous. matt 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
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ThePresbyteers
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This message is deleted and closed.
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YahuShuan
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Yah has put in me that there was a possible variation in Mat 20:16 “Thus the last shall be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.” This feeling has been a pushy one for quite a while and I have not really know why. So today He said look it up (duh). So out of Strong's, BDB, and Word Study, there is only one of them which gave a definition for "chosen". That being Strong's which states; G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
So I asked "that's unusual...why is that?" HE had me click on the actual word "chosen" instead of the number, and it brought up another reference, that from the International Stanadard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE), which stated; "Chosen chō´z'n. See CHOOSE." So I went to see "choose", and that stated quite a bit more on the subject...
Choose; Chosen
chooz, chō´z'n (בּחר, bāḥar, קבל, ḳābhal, בּרא, bārā), בּרה, bārāh; ἐκλέγω, eklégō):
I. In the Old Testament
1. Human Choice
2. God Chooses King of Israel
3. God Chooses Jerusalem
4. Election of Israel
5. Yahweh's Grace
(1) An Act of Sovereignty
(2) For Mankind's Sake
II. In the New Testament
1. Various Meanings
2. Of God's Free Grace
3. Ultimate Antinomies
4. Election Corresponds to Experience
The words denote an act of comparison of two or more objects or persons, the preference and selection of one, or of a few out of a larger number for a certain purpose, function, position or privilege.
I. In the Old Testament
1. Human Choice
For bāḥar and its derivatives: men choosing wives (Gen_6:2); Lot choosing the cities of the Plain (Gen_13:11); often of kings and generals choosing soldiers for their prowess (e.g. Exo_17:9; Jos_8:3; 1Sa_13:2; 2Sa_10:9; 2Sa_17:1). The word bāḥar is often used for “young men,” as being choice, in the prime of manhood. The most important uses of bāḥar are these: of Israel choosing a king (1Sa_8:18; 1Sa_12:13); of moral and religious choice: choosing Yahweh as God (Jos_24:15, Jos_24:22), or other gods (Jdg_5:8; Jdg_10:14); the way of truth (Psa_119:30); to refuse the evil and choose the good (Isa_7:15, Isa_7:16); compare David's choice of evils (2Sa_24:12).
2. God Chooses King of Israel
A leading idea is that of God choosing Moses as leader (Num_16:5, Num_16:7; Num_17:5); the Levites to the priesthood (1Sa_2:28; 2Ch_29:11); Saul as king (1Sa_10:24), David (2Sa_6:21; 1Ki_11:34), Solomon (1Ch_28:5). All this follows from theocratic idea that God rules personally over Israel as His chosen people.
3. God Chooses Jerusalem
A more important, but still subsidiary, idea is that of Yahweh choosing Jerusalem as the place of His habitation and worship (Deu_12:5; and 20 other times, Jos_9:27; 1Ki_8:44, 1Ki_8:48; Psa_132:13; Zec_1:17; Zec_2:12; Zec_3:2). This was the ruling idea of Josiah's reformation which was instrumental in putting down polytheistic ideas and idolatrous practices in Israel, and was therefore an important factor in the development of Hebrew monotheism; but it was an idea that Hebrew monotheism had to transcend and reject to attain its full growth. “The hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father” (Joh_4:21).
4. Election of Israel
But the fundamental idea of choosing, which governs all others in the Old Testament, is that of God choosing Israel to be His peculiar people. He chose Abraham, and made a covenant with him, to give him the land of Canaan (Neh_9:7): “For thou art a holy people unto Yahweh thy God: Yahweh thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth ... because Yahweh loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers” (Deu_7:6-8). Historically this idea originated in the old conception of Yahweh as the tribal God of Israel, bound to her by natural and indissoluble ties (see GOD). But as their conception of Yahweh became more moral, and the idea of His righteousness predominated, it was recognized that there was no natural and necessary relation and harmony between Israel and Yahweh that accounted for the favor of a righteous God toward her, for Israel was no better than her neighbors (Amo_1:1-15; 2). Why then was Yahweh Israel's God, and Israel His people?
5. Yahweh's Grace
It was by an act of free choice and sovereign grace on God's part. “You only have I known of all the families of the earth” (Amo_3:2). In Hos the relation is described under the figure of a marriage tie. Yahweh is Israel's husband: and to realize the force of the figure, it is necessary to recall what ancient and oriental marriage customs were. Choice and favor were almost entirely made by the husband. The idea of the covenant which Yahweh out of His free grace made with Israel comes to the forefront in Deuteronomy and Jeremiah. Because He loved her, and for no other reason, He has chosen Israel to be His peculiar people. In Isa 40 through 66 the idea is carried farther in two directions:
(1) an Act of Sovereignty
Yahweh's gracious choice of Israel rests ultimately on His absolute sovereignty: “O Jacob my servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith Yahweh that made thee, and formed thee from the womb” (Isa_44:1, Isa_44:2; compare Isa_29:16; Jer_18:6; Isa_64:8). For Israel's deliverance Cyrus and his world-empire are in Yahweh's hands as clay in the potter's hands (Isa_45:9, Isa_45:10).
(2) for Mankind's Sake
“Israel is elect for the sake of mankind.” This is the moral interpretation of a choice that otherwise appears arbitrary and irrational. God's purpose and call of salvation are unto all mankind. “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else” (Isa_45:22). And Israel is His servant, chosen, the messenger He sends, “to bring forth justice to the Gentiles” (Isa_42:1, Isa_42:19; Isa_43:10, Isa_43:12). The idea is further developed in the conception of the SERVANT OF YAHWEH (which see) as the faithful few (or one) formed “from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him,” “for a light to the Gentiles,” God's “salvation unto the end of the earth” (Isa_49:1-6; 52:13 through 53:12) (compare Isaiah's doctrine of the Remnant: Shearjashub; also, the righteous, the godly, the meek, in Pss; and see Skinner, Isaiah, II, xxx ff). As the conception of personality and of individual relation and responsibility to God developed from Ezek onward, together with the resulting doctrine of personal immortality, the conditions were prepared for the application of the idea of election to individuals (compare Psa_65:4).
Coördinate with the idea of God choosing Israel runs the complementary idea that Israel should prove faithful to the covenant, and worthy of the choice. God has chosen her, not for any merit in her, but of His free grace, and according to His purpose of salvation, but if Israel fails to respond by faithful conduct, fitting her to be His servant and messenger, He may and will cast her off, or such portion of her as proves unworthy. See Oehler, Old Testament Theology, I, 256ff, 287 f.
Three other Hebrew words expressing choice in minor matters are: ḳābhal, for David's choice of evils (1Ch_21:11); bārā', to mark out a place (Eze_21:19), to select singers and porters for the temple (1Ch_9:22; 1Ch_16:41); bārāh, to choose a man to represent Israel against Goliath (1Sa_17:8).
II. In the New Testament
1. Various Meanings
The whole conception of God, of His relation to Israel, and of His action in history indicated above, constituted the religious heritage of Jesus Christ and His disciples. The national conciousness had to a considerable extent given place to that of the individual; and salvation extended beyond the present life into a state of blessedness in a future world. But the central ideas remain, and are only modified in the New Testament in so far as Jesus Christ becomes the Mediator and Agent of God's sovereign grace. Eklegō and its derivatives are the words that generally express the idea in the New Testament. They are used (1) of the general idea of selecting one out of many (Luk_14:7); (2) of choosing men for a particular purpose, e.g. of the church choosing the seven (Act_6:5); of the choice of delegates from the Council of Jerusalem (Act_15:22, Act_15:25; compare 2Co_8:19), cheirotonéō; choose by vote (the Revised Version (British and American) “appoint”) (compare Act_10:41), , procheirotonéō; (3) of moral choice (Mar_13:20): “Mary hath chosen the good part” (Luk_10:42); (4) of Christ as the chosen Messiah of God (Luk_23:35; 1Pe_2:4 the King James Version); (5) of Christ choosing His apostles (Luk_6:13; Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:16, Joh_15:19; Act_1:2, Act_1:24); Paul (Act_9:15; compare Act_22:14 the King James Version), procheirízomaī; Rufus (Rom_16:13); and Paul chose Silas (Act_15:40), epilégō; (6) of God (a) choosing Israel (Act_13:17; compare Rom_9:11), (b) choosing the Christian church as the new Israel (1Pe_2:9 the King James Version), (c) choosing the members of the church from among the poor (Jam_2:5), the foolish, weak and despised (1Co_1:27-28), (d) choosing into His favor and salvation a few out of many: “Many are called, but few are chosen”' (Mat_20:16 (omitted in the Revised Version (British and American)); Mat_22:14); God shortens the days of the destruction of Jerusalem “for the elect's sake, whom he chose” (Mar_13:20).
2. Of God's Free Grace
In Eph_1:4-6 every phrase tells a different phase of the conception: (1) God chose (and foreordained) the saints in Christ before the foundation of the world; (2) according to the good pleasure of His will; (3) unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself; (4) to be holy and without blemish before Him in love; (5) to the praise of the glory of His grace; (6) which He freely bestowed on them in the Beloved. And in Rev_17:14, the triumphant church in heaven is described as “called and chosen and faithful.” God's sovereign choice governs the experience and testing of the saints at every point from beginning to end.
Thus in the New Testament as in the Old Testament (1) God's covenant of grace is free and unconditional. It is unto all men, now as individuals rather than nations, and without distinction of race or class. It is no less free and sovereign, because it is a father's grace. (2) Israel is still a chosen race for a special purpose. (3) The church and the saints that constitute it are chosen to the full experience and privileges of sonship. (4) God's purpose of grace is fully revealed and realized through Jesus Christ.
3. Ultimate Antinomies
This doctrine raises certain theological and metaphysical difficulties that have never yet been satisfactorily solved. (1) How can God be free if all His acts are preordained from eternity? This is an antinomy which indeed lies at the root of all personality. It is of the essence of the idea of personality that a person should freely determine himself and yet act in conformity with his own character. Every person in practice and experience solves this antinomy continually, though he may have no intellectual category that can coördinate these two apparently contradictory principles in all personality. (2) How can God be just, if a few are chosen and many are left? And (3) How can man be free if his moral character proceeds out of God's sovereign grace? It is certain that if God chose all or left all He would be neither just nor gracious, nor would man have any vestige of freedom.
4. Election Corresponds to Experience
The doctrine describes accurately (a) The moral fact, that some accept salvation and others reject it; (b) The religious fact that God's sovereign and unconditional love is the beginning and cause of salvation. The meeting-point of the action of grace, and of man's liberty as a moral and responsible being, it does not define. Nor has the category as yet been discovered wherewith to construe and coördinate these two facts of religious experience together, although it is a fact known in every Christian experience that where God is most sovereign, man is most free.
For other passages, and the whole idea in the New Testament, see ELECTION.
The "possible variation" I mentioned was this..."Many are called, BUT FEW CHOOSE".
This is what I mean when I say ASK YAH! HE will show you what you missed!
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
So I asked "that's unusual...why is that?" HE had me click on the actual word "chosen" instead of the number, and it brought up another reference, that from the International Stanadard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE), which stated; "Chosen chō´z'n. See CHOOSE." So I went to see "choose", and that stated quite a bit more on the subject...
Choose; Chosen
chooz, chō´z'n (בּחר, bāḥar, קבל, ḳābhal, בּרא, bārā), בּרה, bārāh; ἐκλέγω, eklégō):
I. In the Old Testament
1. Human Choice
2. God Chooses King of Israel
3. God Chooses Jerusalem
4. Election of Israel
5. Yahweh's Grace
(1) An Act of Sovereignty
(2) For Mankind's Sake
II. In the New Testament
1. Various Meanings
2. Of God's Free Grace
3. Ultimate Antinomies
4. Election Corresponds to Experience
The words denote an act of comparison of two or more objects or persons, the preference and selection of one, or of a few out of a larger number for a certain purpose, function, position or privilege.
I. In the Old Testament
1. Human Choice
For bāḥar and its derivatives: men choosing wives (Gen_6:2); Lot choosing the cities of the Plain (Gen_13:11); often of kings and generals choosing soldiers for their prowess (e.g. Exo_17:9; Jos_8:3; 1Sa_13:2; 2Sa_10:9; 2Sa_17:1). The word bāḥar is often used for “young men,” as being choice, in the prime of manhood. The most important uses of bāḥar are these: of Israel choosing a king (1Sa_8:18; 1Sa_12:13); of moral and religious choice: choosing Yahweh as God (Jos_24:15, Jos_24:22), or other gods (Jdg_5:8; Jdg_10:14); the way of truth (Psa_119:30); to refuse the evil and choose the good (Isa_7:15, Isa_7:16); compare David's choice of evils (2Sa_24:12).
2. God Chooses King of Israel
A leading idea is that of God choosing Moses as leader (Num_16:5, Num_16:7; Num_17:5); the Levites to the priesthood (1Sa_2:28; 2Ch_29:11); Saul as king (1Sa_10:24), David (2Sa_6:21; 1Ki_11:34), Solomon (1Ch_28:5). All this follows from theocratic idea that God rules personally over Israel as His chosen people.
3. God Chooses Jerusalem
A more important, but still subsidiary, idea is that of Yahweh choosing Jerusalem as the place of His habitation and worship (Deu_12:5; and 20 other times, Jos_9:27; 1Ki_8:44, 1Ki_8:48; Psa_132:13; Zec_1:17; Zec_2:12; Zec_3:2). This was the ruling idea of Josiah's reformation which was instrumental in putting down polytheistic ideas and idolatrous practices in Israel, and was therefore an important factor in the development of Hebrew monotheism; but it was an idea that Hebrew monotheism had to transcend and reject to attain its full growth. “The hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father” (Joh_4:21).
4. Election of Israel
But the fundamental idea of choosing, which governs all others in the Old Testament, is that of God choosing Israel to be His peculiar people. He chose Abraham, and made a covenant with him, to give him the land of Canaan (Neh_9:7): “For thou art a holy people unto Yahweh thy God: Yahweh thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth ... because Yahweh loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers” (Deu_7:6-8). Historically this idea originated in the old conception of Yahweh as the tribal God of Israel, bound to her by natural and indissoluble ties (see GOD). But as their conception of Yahweh became more moral, and the idea of His righteousness predominated, it was recognized that there was no natural and necessary relation and harmony between Israel and Yahweh that accounted for the favor of a righteous God toward her, for Israel was no better than her neighbors (Amo_1:1-15; 2). Why then was Yahweh Israel's God, and Israel His people?
5. Yahweh's Grace
It was by an act of free choice and sovereign grace on God's part. “You only have I known of all the families of the earth” (Amo_3:2). In Hos the relation is described under the figure of a marriage tie. Yahweh is Israel's husband: and to realize the force of the figure, it is necessary to recall what ancient and oriental marriage customs were. Choice and favor were almost entirely made by the husband. The idea of the covenant which Yahweh out of His free grace made with Israel comes to the forefront in Deuteronomy and Jeremiah. Because He loved her, and for no other reason, He has chosen Israel to be His peculiar people. In Isa 40 through 66 the idea is carried farther in two directions:
(1) an Act of Sovereignty
Yahweh's gracious choice of Israel rests ultimately on His absolute sovereignty: “O Jacob my servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith Yahweh that made thee, and formed thee from the womb” (Isa_44:1, Isa_44:2; compare Isa_29:16; Jer_18:6; Isa_64:8). For Israel's deliverance Cyrus and his world-empire are in Yahweh's hands as clay in the potter's hands (Isa_45:9, Isa_45:10).
(2) for Mankind's Sake
“Israel is elect for the sake of mankind.” This is the moral interpretation of a choice that otherwise appears arbitrary and irrational. God's purpose and call of salvation are unto all mankind. “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else” (Isa_45:22). And Israel is His servant, chosen, the messenger He sends, “to bring forth justice to the Gentiles” (Isa_42:1, Isa_42:19; Isa_43:10, Isa_43:12). The idea is further developed in the conception of the SERVANT OF YAHWEH (which see) as the faithful few (or one) formed “from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him,” “for a light to the Gentiles,” God's “salvation unto the end of the earth” (Isa_49:1-6; 52:13 through 53:12) (compare Isaiah's doctrine of the Remnant: Shearjashub; also, the righteous, the godly, the meek, in Pss; and see Skinner, Isaiah, II, xxx ff). As the conception of personality and of individual relation and responsibility to God developed from Ezek onward, together with the resulting doctrine of personal immortality, the conditions were prepared for the application of the idea of election to individuals (compare Psa_65:4).
Coördinate with the idea of God choosing Israel runs the complementary idea that Israel should prove faithful to the covenant, and worthy of the choice. God has chosen her, not for any merit in her, but of His free grace, and according to His purpose of salvation, but if Israel fails to respond by faithful conduct, fitting her to be His servant and messenger, He may and will cast her off, or such portion of her as proves unworthy. See Oehler, Old Testament Theology, I, 256ff, 287 f.
Three other Hebrew words expressing choice in minor matters are: ḳābhal, for David's choice of evils (1Ch_21:11); bārā', to mark out a place (Eze_21:19), to select singers and porters for the temple (1Ch_9:22; 1Ch_16:41); bārāh, to choose a man to represent Israel against Goliath (1Sa_17:8).
II. In the New Testament
1. Various Meanings
The whole conception of God, of His relation to Israel, and of His action in history indicated above, constituted the religious heritage of Jesus Christ and His disciples. The national conciousness had to a considerable extent given place to that of the individual; and salvation extended beyond the present life into a state of blessedness in a future world. But the central ideas remain, and are only modified in the New Testament in so far as Jesus Christ becomes the Mediator and Agent of God's sovereign grace. Eklegō and its derivatives are the words that generally express the idea in the New Testament. They are used (1) of the general idea of selecting one out of many (Luk_14:7); (2) of choosing men for a particular purpose, e.g. of the church choosing the seven (Act_6:5); of the choice of delegates from the Council of Jerusalem (Act_15:22, Act_15:25; compare 2Co_8:19), cheirotonéō; choose by vote (the Revised Version (British and American) “appoint”) (compare Act_10:41), , procheirotonéō; (3) of moral choice (Mar_13:20): “Mary hath chosen the good part” (Luk_10:42); (4) of Christ as the chosen Messiah of God (Luk_23:35; 1Pe_2:4 the King James Version); (5) of Christ choosing His apostles (Luk_6:13; Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:16, Joh_15:19; Act_1:2, Act_1:24); Paul (Act_9:15; compare Act_22:14 the King James Version), procheirízomaī; Rufus (Rom_16:13); and Paul chose Silas (Act_15:40), epilégō; (6) of God (a) choosing Israel (Act_13:17; compare Rom_9:11), (b) choosing the Christian church as the new Israel (1Pe_2:9 the King James Version), (c) choosing the members of the church from among the poor (Jam_2:5), the foolish, weak and despised (1Co_1:27-28), (d) choosing into His favor and salvation a few out of many: “Many are called, but few are chosen”' (Mat_20:16 (omitted in the Revised Version (British and American)); Mat_22:14); God shortens the days of the destruction of Jerusalem “for the elect's sake, whom he chose” (Mar_13:20).
2. Of God's Free Grace
In Eph_1:4-6 every phrase tells a different phase of the conception: (1) God chose (and foreordained) the saints in Christ before the foundation of the world; (2) according to the good pleasure of His will; (3) unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself; (4) to be holy and without blemish before Him in love; (5) to the praise of the glory of His grace; (6) which He freely bestowed on them in the Beloved. And in Rev_17:14, the triumphant church in heaven is described as “called and chosen and faithful.” God's sovereign choice governs the experience and testing of the saints at every point from beginning to end.
Thus in the New Testament as in the Old Testament (1) God's covenant of grace is free and unconditional. It is unto all men, now as individuals rather than nations, and without distinction of race or class. It is no less free and sovereign, because it is a father's grace. (2) Israel is still a chosen race for a special purpose. (3) The church and the saints that constitute it are chosen to the full experience and privileges of sonship. (4) God's purpose of grace is fully revealed and realized through Jesus Christ.
3. Ultimate Antinomies
This doctrine raises certain theological and metaphysical difficulties that have never yet been satisfactorily solved. (1) How can God be free if all His acts are preordained from eternity? This is an antinomy which indeed lies at the root of all personality. It is of the essence of the idea of personality that a person should freely determine himself and yet act in conformity with his own character. Every person in practice and experience solves this antinomy continually, though he may have no intellectual category that can coördinate these two apparently contradictory principles in all personality. (2) How can God be just, if a few are chosen and many are left? And (3) How can man be free if his moral character proceeds out of God's sovereign grace? It is certain that if God chose all or left all He would be neither just nor gracious, nor would man have any vestige of freedom.
4. Election Corresponds to Experience
The doctrine describes accurately (a) The moral fact, that some accept salvation and others reject it; (b) The religious fact that God's sovereign and unconditional love is the beginning and cause of salvation. The meeting-point of the action of grace, and of man's liberty as a moral and responsible being, it does not define. Nor has the category as yet been discovered wherewith to construe and coördinate these two facts of religious experience together, although it is a fact known in every Christian experience that where God is most sovereign, man is most free.
For other passages, and the whole idea in the New Testament, see ELECTION.
The "possible variation" I mentioned was this..."Many are called, BUT FEW CHOOSE".
This is what I mean when I say ASK YAH! HE will show you what you missed!
ThePresbyteers
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beloved57
Well-known member
Christ Intercession is for all that He died for !
Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
One of the many blessings that Christ death secured for all them He died for is His Present Intercession for them to God, premised solely upon His Blood shed for them.
All that Christ died for would be born in sin, but God would have to deliver them all, and this is ensured by Christ being in Heaven making intercession for them.
Remember, He gave Himself for us [ The elect] in order that He would deliver us from this present evil world according to Gods will Gal 1:4-5
4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
To their shame, many today do not believe that Christ Intercession is effective, in that they believe, many for whom Christ gave himself for, and is now presently interceding for, will yet perish in their sins .how frightening.
What they fail to realize, is that Christ Intercession ensures for every sinner He died for, a Divine Intervention in their lives delivering them from sin and converting them unto God..
This was vividly demonstrated in the intervention in the Life of the apostle Paul when he was on the road to Damascus.
The effects of the Intercession of Christ for those He died is bringing them to God by Him Heb 7:25
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Their coming to God is evidence of He having saved them to the uttermost and His Intercession for them.
So, for you who believe that there are some to perish in their sins for whom Christ died and rose, you discredit the value of His redeeming blood, and His Intercession is ineffectual. because of your insistence that mans freewill determines these outcomes..
Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
One of the many blessings that Christ death secured for all them He died for is His Present Intercession for them to God, premised solely upon His Blood shed for them.
All that Christ died for would be born in sin, but God would have to deliver them all, and this is ensured by Christ being in Heaven making intercession for them.
Remember, He gave Himself for us [ The elect] in order that He would deliver us from this present evil world according to Gods will Gal 1:4-5
4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
To their shame, many today do not believe that Christ Intercession is effective, in that they believe, many for whom Christ gave himself for, and is now presently interceding for, will yet perish in their sins .how frightening.
What they fail to realize, is that Christ Intercession ensures for every sinner He died for, a Divine Intervention in their lives delivering them from sin and converting them unto God..
This was vividly demonstrated in the intervention in the Life of the apostle Paul when he was on the road to Damascus.
The effects of the Intercession of Christ for those He died is bringing them to God by Him Heb 7:25
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Their coming to God is evidence of He having saved them to the uttermost and His Intercession for them.
So, for you who believe that there are some to perish in their sins for whom Christ died and rose, you discredit the value of His redeeming blood, and His Intercession is ineffectual. because of your insistence that mans freewill determines these outcomes..
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YahuShuan
New member
Let's not forget that Adam and Eve wasn't born a sinner. That changes everything and needs to be re-interpreted by sinful mankind. Many talk like they were born sinners and like the rest of us. Sinners don't have free will but Captive or slaved will as described in the Bible. Look for it and you will find many quotes on those subjects.
God could avoided the Earth to form or the big bang, banged:beanboy:
What a vacuum !
Times chases space form the center of God.:kook:
The Earth spun and there was Arthur Brain crying:jawdrop:, "Why do I exist?"
And... how do we know that "Adam" had no sin? Simple...
Gen 1:26-31 And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the earth.” And Elohim created the man in His image, in the image of Elohim He created him – male and female He created them. And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said to them, “Bear fruit and increase, and fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over all creatures moving on the earth.” And Elohim said, “See, I have given you every plant that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it is for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to every creeping creature on the earth, in which there is life, every green plant is for food.” And it came to be so. And Elohim saw all that He had made, and see, it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the sixth day."
It was "all" "very good" in His eyes. And after the fall it was not. For we see the Son saying later, most obviously because of the flesh He wore which was something He took on as inheritance from Adam, being "the last Adam" to "restore" or shall I say, to tear the veil between us and Yah so that we can today utilize the opportunity to "worship in SPIRIT and in Truth". Thus saying, to worship in truth, one must worship in spirit WITH truth. "Restoring" the relationship that we should have had....Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.”
And also showing us that guarding the commands is what we should be doing "IF" we "wish to enter into life". To me, that sure don't sound like "we are not under the law" as has been interpreted by many christian denominations, but rather, quite clearly states that somebody has "twisted Paul's writings to their own destruction" as is also stated, in the NT. In John 5:43-47 the Messiah we base our belief on solidly says; “I have come in My Father’s Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive. How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Mosheh, in whom you have set your expectation. For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?”
I mean clearly, reading that with open eyes to see, how does one not "look up and say what have I done"? Coming from the perspective of a christian that is. I mean really, just WHO is it that we are to believe? Then why don't we "all"?
Because there is a time for everything under the sun! It will come. "This is the patience of the saints". Thus it is my personal feeling that none of us wish to be caught beating any servants, let alone those who are blind. I myself have gotten way to caught up in the arguing over mere little words and doctrines of men. I am trying to learn just to say what Abba wants said, according to His Words, and then but out as much as possible so others can seek from HIM too. Yet I truly can not say "peace peace when there is no peace", so the "truth of the matters" must always be first and foremost, but not the truths of men. There is One truth, and it is His who made us. No matter who says what down here, or who writes what, or who says I studied this or that and this is the way it is, WE MUST ASK YAH what is truth. Each and every one of us. If we do so, we are not let down by any means. One must question that which tries to enter into us that leads us away...astray, from doing so. Away from believing what is right in front of our faces that is "not seen". One must admit, "what keeps me from seeing, must be delusion", and thereby ASK..."what have I done?" "I", ME, MYSELF???
It ain't nobody's fault but my own, because I didn't "ask the Father". I believe that to be a Universal effect of man's trangressing of the Torah of Yah. Just like He warned, "to the third and fourth generations of them that hate Me" He said.
Shortly stated, we all best find some "commands" to "guard" and fugure out just what "law" are are under and what law we ain't under! For that we NEED Torah. Or maybe we will be hearing "and just what was it that you asked forgiveness FOR?"
Just some thoughts pressing on me there
On this Sabbath He made for me and you...and HIM. The Day of the week where His People talk about HIM, and use HIS WORDS and "not their own". Once a week, not to be preached at by a "pulpiteer", but to be with and talk about Him and His Words. Not a "burden" at all. And yes, "I delight in the Torah of Yahuweh's Mouth". And I delight in sharing the day with those who have a heart, mind, soul, eyes, and ears for Him.Shabbat Shalom to the House of Yah!