The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Nang

TOL Subscriber
In Ro. 1, Paul says that there is sufficient evidence for all men to know that GOD exists, but that we suppress that truth because it leads to accountability.
If anybody really wants to know, it can be known.

On the other hand GOD has left the fact of HIS existence somewhat obscure, to allow us to choose to look for HIM. HIS overwhelming presence would eliminate our choosing to cease our rebellion freely. However, there will come a time when HIS presence will be overwhemingly plain. As C.S. Lewis remarked, that will be a time when there will be no point in saying, "I now choose to willingly bow before GOD", when it is impossible to stand up. Our time of choosing is now!

Sinners are unable and unwilling to "choose" to believe, because they are held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

Until that plain fact is acknowledged, the matter of salvation by grace will never be appreciated or understood.

Man has a will, but his will is not free (from sin, death, or the devil) to seek or please God.

Only by the will and grace of God, that powerfully changes the very nature ("heart") of sinners, and rescues them from their bondage, is salvation evidenced in this sorry world.

Nang
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.

Actually no. It would be a responsible act of parenting to ensure your child's safety and anything that didn't attempt to secure such would amount to negligence. Before I supply verses are you arguing that God didn't know that Adam would err?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
One cannot establish an accurate basic perspective according to an unbelieving "gist."

Your assessment is way off base . . .

If it's 'way off base' then explain why. That should not be difficult and if you don't then you're prevaricating.


But sovereign predestination is not the sum total of all that Holy Scripture reveals. The bible also teaches that Christians are commissioned to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.

That is what my witness and testimony is, here on TOL. I proclaim what I believe. I proclaim the words of God. I proclaim both the Law of God and the Grace of God and leave any results from my witness to the will of God.

I am commissioned by my Lord to do so, for this is His very means of calling sinners to Himself. Not just me, but it is the testimony of any Christian preaching the faithful gospel message (Holy Scripture) that contains the power to save.

So it is important that I do what I am doing, even though I have no idea who, if any, will be given ears to hear God's message. That is not up to me. John 5:21

Nang

Well if you're correct Nang, then it's already a done deal and whatever you do has already been preordained along with everything else. So it is kinda moot whether you witness or not.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Even better, why doesn't god make himself known to all so there would be no doubts of his existence. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you are forced to worship him. It would not take away my free will just to know that he existed. I still would have had the choice on whether or not to have faith (trust) in him and to follow him. If god really wanted ALL to be save, why not at least give everyone the same chance by making himself known to all, so there would be no doubts of his existence?

Romans 1-3 All men are without excuse and universally condemned because God has made Himself plain and known.

"He is there and He is not silent" -Francis Schaeffer
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Sinners are unable and unwilling to "choose" to believe, because they are held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

Until that plain fact is acknowledged, the matter of salvation by grace will never be appreciated or understood.

Man has a will, but his will is not free (from sin, death, or the devil) to seek or please God.

Only by the will and grace of God, that powerfully changes the very nature ("heart") of sinners, and rescues them from their bondage, is salvation evidenced in this sorry world.

Nang

Total depravity is not total inability.

God commands men everywhere to repent and believe. He does not command what is impossible.

We do need the convincing, conviction, influence of the Spirit, but salvation is relational, not causative, passive, coercive. It is based on love, not force.

TULIP is wilted.:p
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
If it's 'way off base' then explain why.

Well you summarize a conclusion that does not accord with what Scripture teaches. You claim God supposedly wills to show His "justice to the elect." Nowhere does Scripture teach that.


Well if you're correct Nang, then it's already a done deal and whatever you do has already been preordained along with everything else. So it is kinda moot whether you witness or not.

You speak of fatalism. I speak of divine means that save sinners.

Men hearing the word of the gospel is the power that saves sinners, and God has ordained the Gospel message be proclaimed by those who already have been regenerated to new spiritual life by His grace.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Sin and unbelief is contrary to the will of God, but God's purposes are to bring good out of evil. Genesis 50:20; Romans 8:28

Then the Sovereign Will of God is either thwarted by man or decreed by God. You can't say 'despite' the fall if it's decreed by God to occur else it's contradiction.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Total depravity is not total inability.

Yes it is. Souls dead in trespasses and sin have innate ability to live.

God commands men everywhere to repent and believe. He does not command what is impossible.

Indeed God commands all men to believe and repent, which is possible by His grace and the power of His Holy Spirit, who gives new spiritual minds, hearts, and wills to sinners; enabling them to believe and repent.

What is impossible with man, is made possible through faith in God.

We do need the convincing, conviction, influence of the Spirit, but salvation is relational,

Man can not initiate a relationship with God, because God has cursed him with enmity and separated His holiness from man.

Only God can choose to reconcile man with Himself and create a new, spiritual relationship . . . and that was the purpose and accomplishment of the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

A Mediator between sinful man and Holy God was necessary, and Jesus Christ alone fulfilled that role.

Open Theists who preach "loving relationship" with God, fail when they base such relationship to be contingent upon the free will and choices of sinners.

It is only the will and choosing of Jesus Christ, whereby sinners are brought into new spiritual relationship with the Father. John 5:21

It is the choice of God alone who will be adopted and legally named as His children and heirs.


TULIP is wilted.:p

TULIP thrives and has been healthy for about 500 years.

It is your recent little sprouting of Open Theism that fails to flourish.

Nang
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Well you summarize a conclusion that does not accord with what Scripture teaches. You claim God supposedly wills to show His "justice to the elect." Nowhere does Scripture teach that.

Ok then. Who is this 'justice' *shown to*? The unregenerate? Those that can't 'see' because of a condition passed down through Adam?


You speak of fatalism. I speak of divine means that save sinners.

Men hearing the word of the gospel is the power that saves sinners, and God has ordained the Gospel message be proclaimed by those who already have been regenerated to new spiritual life by His grace.

Well, that's pretty much what your doctrine amounts to Nang. Whether you witness or not it's only a preordained elect that are 'saved' anyway so it matters not what you do. You say 'Men hearing the word of the gospel' is the power to save but only if they're already 'picked' to understand and receive grace. So it's a formality.....
 

Todah

New member
Concerning the question, "Did Christ Die for everyone, or just some?'

I remember when I surrendered myself to God, I truly believed that a miracle had taken place, and that I had been born again! That God was present in my life and that He loved me, and I sensed His invisible presence, around me and others.

Within a few months time I was despondent and quaking in fear that I was not truly saved, because of what I was reading in the Bible about two topics; Election and the unpardonable sin. One of my new friends in my new Church was a devote Calvinist, who was the most confident person, in his own salvation, that I had ever met. To him it was the greatest doctrine ever discovered. We have nothing to do with our own salvation. God decided who he was going to save, before he created a single one of us. Therefore there was nothing we could do to gain it, and more importantly to him; absolutely nothing he could do to lose it. He had not a care, or a worry in the world. He was absolutely bulletproof and fearless.

I, on the other hand, took the contrary position. If God chose who was going to be saved, and, what if he did not choose me, then there is absolutely, positively, and eternally, nothing I could do to change His mind, and get Him to save me. And I definitely still needed to be saved, because...........

I had discovered this dreadful verse that said..."he who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."

Several years earlier I had done exactly that. When the woman I had planned to marry, confessed she cheated on me, and denied ever having "really" loved me. I snapped. That night in a rage, I cursed her, myself, and all three members of the trinity, with vile words, and oaths. I wanted to die. I wanted to be destroyed. I wanted to destroy God, with my words.

Putting together what I had done, on that night years ago, with this new knowledge that God chooses the elect, I was certain there was no way that I could possibly be one of them, because of what that verse says. An elect person could never commit the unpardonable sin, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and I already had. There was no way out of it!

No one could console me. Not my pastor, not my wife, certainly not this friend, or any other friend.

But, this is how I survived almost committing suicide, from my position of hopelessness.

I reasoned with God in this way. Dear Father, if I am not one of the elect, and you do indeed hate me, as Esau was hated by you; I will not take my life, but you who create life and can cause death, you can take my life whenever you see fit. Therefore I leave my life, and my death, in your hands, and not mine. It is not my right to take my own life, it is yours, if you so choose..........Father, I believe I have committed a sin which you in your own Word, say that you will never forgive. My pastor assures me that I am wrong in my understanding. Whether he, or I, am right, I simply ask you to forgive me of this sin, as you have forgiven me of all others. Your forgiveness and your mercy is my only hope. If you spare my life, I will live on, in the hope of your future forgiveness and your mercy.

Just as the prophet said to Ninevah, " Forty days and Ninevah shall be destroyed " The king reasoned what have we got to lose by repenting, perhaps he will yet forgive us, and the word of the Lord will not come to pass. So did I repent of my blasphemy, and asked forgiveness for the unpardonable sin, and my lack of being one of the elect. After all, what did I possibly have to lose???

I write this long testimony tonight, to give faith and boldness to anyone who may be a new believer and reading this thread, which states that Christ's death and God's forgiveness is not for everyone.

Fear not, even if that lie, were true, throw yourself upon the mercy of God, for He is gracious and far more merciful than anyone on this forum, or even in this whole world, can possibly realize and understand.

I am still here, 24 years later, and understand God much better now than I did then, and much better than my friend did.
 
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steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Romans 1-3 All men are without excuse and universally condemned because God has made Himself plain and known.

"He is there and He is not silent" -Francis Schaeffer

Good book, GR. It along with his others are read and reread by me.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Concerning the question, "Did Christ Die for everyone, or just some?'

I remember when I surrendered myself to God, I truly believed that a miracle had taken place, and that I had been born again! That God was present in my life and that He loved me, and I sensed His invisible presence, around me and others.

<snip>

I write this long testimony tonight, to give faith and boldness to anyone who may be a new believer and reading this thread, which states that Christ's death and God's forgiveness is not for everyone.

Fear not, even if that lie, were true, throw yourself upon the mercy of God, for He is gracious and far more merciful than anyone on this forum, or even in this whole world can possibly realize and understand.

I am still here 24 years later, and understand God much better now than I did then, and much better than my friend did.

Good post and testimony Todah. I've encountered many people that have been convinced that they had commited the 'unpardonable sin'. It's sad that clarity on this matter is so lacking in many churches today. I'm sorry for your torment but I'm sure that what you've been through makes GOD's amazing grace that much more amazing.
Thanks!

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
steko:



Thats your jesus, The Jesus I serve is the Saviour of the World..

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
 
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